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Another OLED Burn in Problem....

5to1

Well-known Member
Sorry but IMO that's just BS. Utter BS.....no matter how elegantly put. To assert that my OLED material is compromised and others are not which results in a burn in after two long years....coincidentally the same as many others...is a far stretch. So what happened specifically? The calibration of the substrate sprayer head became out of whack with the exact same uncalibrated measurements as 5% of others? That's statistically almost impossible. Sorry....even though I never worked at an OLED manufacturing plant....I did work as an industrial controls engineer for a good part of my life and from my experience....most solid state processes that rely on any type of cell or organic technology is very, very consistent when it comes to operating life as well as failure rates.
The bottom line is that according to Occams Razor...there is a major problem with burn in when using an OLED screen for television viewing and I believe the more mainstream these become....the more we will hear about the issue unless they fix the current technology. Is it scientific? No....just common sense. Anyway...that's my take and you disagree. But I won't gamble another $2500 on the chance that you are correct.
Thank you for enlightening me how consumer electronics are manufactured. All those years running an embedded design company I thought it was Santas Elves putting our stuff together :confused:

Since LGD closely guard how they've achieved commercially viable mass manufacture of large form OLED panels I can't enlighten you how variation can occur. Neither you nor I know exactly what their manufacturing process entails and how they've managed to overcome the hurdles others couldn't (aside from using WOLED they still had significant yield issues).

What we do know is yields have always been an issue for large form OLED panels. Accurately and consistently depositing the OLED material to the substrate has long been cited as one of the key issues. Thermal evaporation is efficient for small form panels, I believe they still use a mask to create distinct charge conducting and charge blocking layout when manufacturing smaller panels. The variations and defects inherent with mask patterning are tolerable on small panels. But they present a much bigger issue with large form panels (pun intended). So here's a publicly known example which induces variance in panels.

Whatever process LG use is likely to have compromises and therefore result in variance between panels. As otherwise they wouldn't have had to resort to WOLED. If they could accurately and consistently deposit OLED material to the substrate 100% of the time they could produce RGB panels.

I've already cited other examples of panel variance. Many users have posted 5% slides and not a single one looks the same. The same is true of DSE with LCD panels and hot spots due to uneven backlight diffusion across the panel. These are not your run of the mill products using refined manufacturing techniques. They are pushing the envelope here. The tolerances are far far smaller. Otherwise every man and their dog would be churning them out. The processes and products you worked with will have had similar issues in the early years. Over the years changes will have been made, new techniques adopted to reach a level of consistency which to your eye seems 100%. Because the variances are no longer perceptible for that particular application. That is clearly not the case at this point of large form factor OLED panel production.

Depositing and encapsulating an Organic material susceptible to heat, UV light, Oxygen, moisture in a pattern which requires ~25m distinct charge conducting channels with sufficient inter sub pixel charge blocking (to prevent leakage) in a small area is not the same as evaporating an even layer of material on some substrate. The latter has become trivial, whereas the former is at the cutting edge of mass manufacture and pushing the boundaries of existing techniques.

Another example of panel variance/defect is the discoloured central square that some users panels have developed. LG have admitted in some instances the substrate/OLED material had not cooled sufficiently prior to calibration. As a result the lookup tables were set incorrectly. Without their acknowledgement and explanation none of us could have guessed this variance could occur. Did your years of experience as a controls engineer give you foresight of this potential issue? No it didn't, because you're experience does not provide you sufficient expertise to conclude there is no possibility of variance between panels.

Since we've moved on to common sense analysis now, I'll enlighten you what my common sense tells me. LGD have churned out millions of panels. If they were all as susceptible to burn in as you've concluded from your single experience, I'd expect hundreds of thousands if not a million plus to have suffered burn in by now. Where are all those disgruntled customers? Moreover, why would every major manufacturer bar Samsung be putting these panels in their flagship displays. Let alone increasing production?

My common sense tells me it's highly unlikely they are as susceptible to burn in as your common sense tells you. But as I said, time will tell. If you're correct, we'll see millions of customers crying foul before long, right?
 

5to1

Well-known Member
Additionally since I recall you are fond of quoting consumer AV journalists, here is a quote from rtings burn in test article:


Week 11 (04/10/2018): ........LG has also confirmed that there is variation between panels, which is why some OLED appear more prone to developing uniformity issues (as in the case with our Live CNN (200 nits) vs Live CNN (Max).)
Personally I take these articles and quotes with a pinch of salt. Manufacturers aren't always honest and will give an answer which is in their commercial interests. We often see the answer change when their interests change. Look at Samsung suddenly banging on about burn in and adding it to their warranty. Conveniently after they stopped selling PDP's and failed to make OLED work due to yield issues.

And i'm unsure of the level to which you can trust these consumer AV publications. I'm not sure they are as rigorous or have the processes in place to ensure consistent accurate investigative reporting. I think the balance between commercial interests and rigorous journalist principles and integrity are blurred too often.
 

MikeTVMikeTV

Well-known Member
My mates C6 is on its 3rd screen, 2 changes for discoloured blocks and then a 3rd for the disney junior logo burn in.

He got his from Richersounds and they've been great for him.
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
Unfortunately Mr Unopinionated once your OLED tv has gone wrong but then fixed with a new panel then it’s not cost effective to change to an lcd tv when you have a perfectly good OLED tv again.Also once you’ve had issues it does make you lose confidence in the technology and do wonder how long the new panel will last.
Its rather flippant of you telling owners not to go with OLED TVs when they are stuck with them after repair.Its an awfull lot of money to lose which most people can’t afford to do by suggesting they go to an lcd tv.
I don’t worry as life’s too short and I very much enjoy my E7 it’s the best tv I’ve ever had but I’m not confident about how long it will last.Certainly not 14 years like my old Sony lcd which my neighbour still has going strong.
Homeby51 has an extreme fear of OLED burn in. Read his messages. If you have an extreme fear of OLED Burn In, like many on this post, it would be stupid to buy an OLED. Life is to short to be anxious and have to babysit your TV. Note: Homeby51 said he was thinking about selling his refurbished OLED TV and buying an LED TV like his parents. I fully recommend that he should do this.

I have read Staffy 2 messages. Sometimes it seems like you still fear OLED Burn In and sometimes it sounds like you don't think it is a significant problem. For you I would say OLED Burn In is not a significant problem and point out what the experts say (see below). I wouldn't give you advice on whether to buy an OLED TV or a LED TV since I don't know if you believe OLED Burn In is a significant problem or not.

I have a OLED TV and it suits me fine since I don't fear burn in and cost isn't an issue for me.

My point is if you fear burn in do not buy an OLED TV. Life is to short to be anxious and have to babysit your TV.

Finally I would point out to anyone that if cost is a concern go with a LED; IPS if you need wide angle or VA if you don't need a wide viewing angle. Most people will be fully satisfied with a mid range LED TV. Especially if you don't study the differences between LED TVs and OLED TVs.

Next I would say to stay away from certain brands (Hisense, Vizio, Westinghouse, RCA, etc.) as well because of reliability issues.

From Rtings.com*
Although we don't expect most people who watch varied content to have any issues, OLED TVs, such as the LG OLED C9 do have the possibility of experiencing burn in.

Vincent Teoh
OLED Burn In Risk is Overblown

Consumer Reports
Their statistical data shows that OLED Burn In is such a rare occurence that they don't even mention it as anything to be concerned with except for some 2015 OLED TVs.

Geoffrey Morrison and David Katzmaier of CNET
If you vary your TV viewing habits like most people, however, it won't be an issue. Even so, caveat emptor. Or as Caesar once said, "Conscientiam autem ardeat sed non anxius" (be aware of burn-in, but not concerned).

John Archer of Forbes
Occurrences of permanent screen burn in the real consumer world are now and will continue to be rare.

Atomicus of Chichester
One thing that seems abundantly apparent is that while by no means should it be suggested that burn-in doesn't exist, the problem is nowhere near as widespread or as much a certainty as some people fear and/or lead others to believe.

Read 5to1
Posts #121 and #122 on this page. It is easy to start formulating your response before you consider what the other person is pointing out. Please read what 5to1 has to say and think about it before you respond.
 
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gbjbaanb

Member
Sorry but IMO that's just BS. Utter BS.....no matter how elegantly put. To assert that my OLED material is compromised and others are not which results in a burn in after two long years....coincidentally the same as many others...is a far stretch. So what happened specifically? The calibration of the substrate sprayer head became out of whack with the exact same uncalibrated measurements as 5% of others? That's statistically almost impossible. Sorry....even though I never worked at an OLED manufacturing plant....I did work as an industrial controls engineer for a good part of my life and from my experience....most solid state processes that rely on any type of cell or organic technology is very, very consistent when it comes to operating life as well as failure rates.
The bottom line is that according to Occams Razor...there is a major problem with burn in when using an OLED screen for television viewing and I believe the more mainstream these become....the more we will hear about the issue unless they fix the current technology. Is it scientific? No....just common sense. Anyway...that's my take and you disagree. But I won't gamble another $2500 on the chance that you are correct.
If your opinion is correct, please explain how some TVs have worse banding compared to others.

I think its obvious the panels are not 100% uniform and the process involved means the panels suffer from a fairly wide (relatively speaking!) level of variance. Maybe the evaporation process isn't exact, and some panels on a hot day will evaporate slightly quicker giving those panels slightly less material, which ends up in them reducing quicker and thus appearing fainter with use as burn-in. Maybe the voltage presented ot the pixels on your set is slightly higher than usual (this is a fairly common thing PC power supplies are tested and always show slight variability in exact voltage levels).

I don't know exactly, but it does appear that the panels are extremely sensitive to something that causes a fair amount of variability in the production.

Anyway, I read a review of last year's Samsung QLED line up (the Q9)(10/10 on avforms) and they say that whilst the black detail is not as good as an OLED, you won't notice unless you watch so close up you leave greasy nose marks on the screen.
 

staffy 2

Active Member
Money and it gave a fantastic 1080i image.I only upgraded for 4k and the jump from 40 to 55 inches.
Same with my neighbour who has it now.She has little money to spare so I gave it to her and she loves it.In it’s day the Sony 2000X cost £2000 and was the top lcd tv.How times change.
 

TheJarv

Active Member
Must say burn in does worry me abit, was watching football in UHD took a phone call came back to find my AG9 had been showing the "Your watching SKY Sports in UHD" downtime slide for 20 minutes, perhaps I am over cautious but having spent £2,500 on this thing it makes you!
 

wilson69

Member
Bought an LG OLED65B7A less than 2 years ago. I am a retired person who simply watches television....the normal way I always have. I have now noticed a burn in news banner along the bottom of my screen. I have NEVER had this problem with Plasma, LED's or LCD's. Anything I can do? I assume LG will not stand behind this....

I will give a warning to everyone considering an OLED to be very wary. Again...I never thought this would be an issue and assumed the old days of burn in problems were long gone with software and such. Seems like I wasted over $2K on a great looking TV.
Alot of reports of this happening after 2 years as it did with my first oled coincidence maybe. 😠
Bought an LG OLED65B7A less than 2 years ago. I am a retired person who simply watches television....the normal way I always have. I have now noticed a burn in news banner along the bottom of my screen. I have NEVER had this problem with Plasma, LED's or LCD's. Anything I can do? I assume LG will not stand behind this....

I will give a warning to everyone considering an OLED to be very wary. Again...I never thought this would be an issue and assumed the old days of burn in problems were long gone with software and such. Seems like I wasted over $2K on a great looking TV.
Lots of reports of this happening after 2 years just like my first oled did coincidence maybe 😠
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
I'm on my second oled first one got burn in after around 2 years but I did not look after it to my shame I got my new one recently I claimed on my house insurance I will try and look after it this time but trust me my old oled took some abusive viewing habits
They didnt even check the tv my friend has it in his game room they asked me to dispose of faulty tv and sent new one
Glad you were able to get your house insurance to cover it.
 
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hiyosilver

Novice Member
I just bought a 55 b9 a couple of weeks ago. Regarding logos. Is there a logo color that is deemed better or will do less damage? The ID channel has a huge white logo. Probably shouldn't have bought an oled given that we watch the same 4 or 5 channels most of the time.
I will zoom in to change the logo location and also zoom in on the movies that have the top and bottom black bars.
I was just curious about the logo color and if that mattered at all to increase chances of burn in.
The tv is amazing. Simply no comparison to my 4 year old samsung 4k 8500.
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
I just bought a 55 b9 a couple of weeks ago. Regarding logos. Is there a logo color that is deemed better or will do less damage? The ID channel has a huge white logo. Probably shouldn't have bought an oled given that we watch the same 4 or 5 channels most of the time.
I will zoom in to change the logo location and also zoom in on the movies that have the top and bottom black bars.
I was just curious about the logo color and if that mattered at all to increase chances of burn in. This Forum is controlled by a Moderator Dodgexander who is very knowledgeable.
The tv is amazing. Simply no comparison to my 4 year old samsung 4k 8500.
Looks like you are new to AVForums. This is your best Forum for OLED Burn IN. Good source of information.


Below is some of the information from this Forum.
Useful facts:
  • The risk of burn in with OLEDs is actually less than it was in the Plasma days. It's no more likely to happen now than then.
  • Its not only OLEDs that can suffer from burn in, abuse any type of display (even LCD) and you can get burn in. Just take a look at some of the old LCDs in pubs.
  • Youtube is full of people claiming to be experts and misleading people, do not believe everything you watch on Youtube. I don't want to name and shame but there are some really laughable content creators out there who literally will say anything to make a few extra views. Do not believe their rubbish! I am sure if you read this, you know the kind of channels I am talking about.

All of the experts agree with this. See post #124 on this page.
 
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staffy 2

Active Member
Hiyosliver if you zoom in then your compromising the image which is the main point of having an OLED.Just enjoy it and don’t worry.Also the red Netflix logo seems a problem.
Dont zoom films in as the black bars aren’t a problem as the pixels are off and I’ve not seen anyone have issues with black bars.
With my E7 I don’t take any special precautions apart from not pausing it so just sit back and enjoy it and use it as any normal tv but aware of what I stated above.
Sorry part of my post disappeared.Sky news and Sky sports news are known for causing pixel wear so avoid those if possible as the rolling ticker feed can cause issues.
 

hiyosilver

Novice Member
Hiyosliver if you zoom in then your compromising the image which is the main point of having an OLED.Just enjoy it and don’t worry.Also the red Netflix logo seems a problem.
Dont zoom films in as the black bars aren’t a problem as the pixels are off and I’ve not seen anyone have issues with black bars.
With my E7 I don’t take any special precautions apart from not pausing it so just sit back and enjoy it and use it as any normal tv but aware of what I stated above.
Sorry part of my post disappeared.Sky news and Sky sports news are known for causing pixel wear so avoid those if possible as the rolling ticker feed can cause issues.
Ive turned on all of the options that help reduce burn in and tv set to power off etc...
Thats all I can do. The only one that bothers me is the ID channel (murder 24hours a day) that my wife watches alot.
 

staffy 2

Active Member
Honestly don’t worry.My household watches every premier league game with the coloured score icons and channel logo and I’ve not had one issue so just enjoy it.
I do have to be honest though and say my tv had a new panel 3 weeks ago at two years old caused by a 2000 hour pixel refresh that caused terrible banding seen in content especially football.My 5 year warranty covered it.
Remember any tv can go wrong but honestly don’t worry and don’t zoom the picture in as it will soften the image so just use it and don’t baby sit it as there’s no need.Yes be a bit cautious like don’t leave it paused and avoid news channels with ticker feeds.They give the most natural amazing image.
 

Homeby51

Member
My mates C6 is on its 3rd screen, 2 changes for discoloured blocks and then a 3rd for the disney junior logo burn in.

He got his from Richersounds and they've been great for him.
Hold on....that can't be right? 3 OLEDS and all three suffer from burn in? Aren't we are being told that only a small percentage of these OLED screens suffer from burn in and when they do it's because of a rare manufacturing error. Soooo....what you are claiming is either statistically almost impossible or.......
Hmmmmm......
 

Homeby51

Member
Homeby51 has an extreme fear of OLED burn in. Read his messages. If you have an extreme fear of OLED Burn In, like many on this post, it would be stupid to buy an OLED.
Sooooo...."fear of burn in" will cause burn in? I mean explain your logic that if one fears burn in then they shouldn't buy an OLED if you claim that only a very, very small number of OLEDS will ever experience burn in? What does "fear" have to do with this conversation? Either the screen will burn in or it won't. Fear has nothing to do with it.
 

gbjbaanb

Member
Easy....because some people have different viewing habits than others.
Banding is nothing to do with viewing habits, its a set-up out of the box issue that several people had. The TVs are manufactured in ways that can (and do) cause variations. Burn in is obviously part of this variation - as rtings has showed with their burn-in test that had one set display worse burn-in than another. Including this snippet which shows that there can be a variation in the manufacturing process.

We contacted LG regarding the strange results in week 4. LG engineers visited our lab a few days ago and were able to confirm the 25% window on the Live CNN and FIFA 18 TVs are a result of a factory issue (see our video here). OLED TVs are produced in a hot process, and after cooling a 25% window is shown on each panel. Some TVs which haven't cooled completely can produce invalid results for the lookup table used by the 'Pixel Refresh' function, causing this 25% window to become visible. Only some 55" OLED TVs were affected during part of 2017.
 

Homeby51

Member
Banding is nothing to do with viewing habits, its a set-up out of the box issue that several people had. The TVs are manufactured in ways that can (and do) cause variations. Burn in is obviously part of this variation - as rtings has showed with their burn-in test that had one set display worse burn-in than another. Including this snippet which shows that there can be a variation in the manufacturing process.
I'm sorry...I read it wrong. I thought you actually meant burn in instead of banding because you quoted me. My bad. But I don't understand......how my comments have anything to do with banding? My entire discussion has been about burn in and I don't believe I have even alluded to banding?
 

gbjbaanb

Member
I'm sorry...I read it wrong. I thought you actually meant burn in instead of banding because you quoted me. My bad. But I don't understand......how my comments have anything to do with banding? My entire discussion has been about burn in and I don't believe I have even alluded to banding?
my point there is that burn-in does seem to vary between sets, some are more susceptible to it. So there must a variation is the manufacturing process, and that is provable because of the variation in banding that some sets show.

The process to make these is obviously very complex and has enough variability to it, its not like they put each pixel in with a robot, they're laid out and evaporated in a process that is controlled but undoubtedly not controllable enough to produce perfectly identical panels.

TBH if you have such a concern about burn-in after your experiences, and the replacement burns in too, then a buy a QLED (which I'm sure you'll be happy with). But rtings has shown that general use doesn't produce burn in for years, their tests show the red pixel burn out quicker, so the CNN logo they are testing it with eats it up fast.
 

wilson69

Member
I got burn in after 2 years on my b7 2 years seams to be the magic burn in number got it replaced with a b9 only time will tell if it does happen I'm done with oled
 

Homeby51

Member
TBH if you have such a concern about burn-in after your experiences, and the replacement burns in too, then a buy a QLED (which I'm sure you'll be happy with). But rtings has shown that general use doesn't produce burn in for years, their tests show the red pixel burn out quicker, so the CNN logo they are testing it with eats it up fast.
Little condescending to expect people to simply buy another set after they shelled out thousands on an OLED that doesn't last but two years.....no? People spend hard earned money on a product that is marketed to last 100,000 hrs/several years. LG should have marketed OLEDS's for streaming services only and are not intended for viewers who watch news or sports. Then your flippant attitude of "buy another set" would be somewhat justified.
But yes....if the second one burns in...which no one can logically explain why it won't....then if LG will not repair it for free then an LED will have to be purchased.
 

mad steve

Well-known Member
Different thread same topic...

The sooner we all just except 'ALL OLED TVS CAN BURN IN' the sooner we can move on.

It's purely down to viewing habits and settings.. There is no magic OLED that's Burn in proof. But it does explain why some seem to last longer than others.

Panasonic believe the main cause of wear is HEAT, and this is why there OLED TVs have been designed to keep the Panel cooler than other brands.
An interesting thought.
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
FYI....LG just told me that they would repair my 2 year old LG OLED65B7A at no cost to me even though it wasn't covered under warranty. I didn't have to argue, scream or push hard at all. I would assume they no about these problems and are repairing those who experience burn in. Anyway...thought I would pass along the info.
BTW...I live in the USA.
It may be a little condescending but you seem like a habitual whiner. They fixed your damn TV.
 

LGSAM

Active Member
Different thread same topic...

The sooner we all just except 'ALL OLED TVS CAN BURN IN' the sooner we can move on.

It's purely down to viewing habits and settings.. There is no magic OLED that's Burn in proof. But it does explain why some seem to last longer than others.

Panasonic believe the main cause of wear is HEAT, and this is why there OLED TVs have been designed to keep the Panel cooler than other brands.
An interesting thought.
I find it interesting that Panasonic are installing a metal plate behind the screen , you can bet their not doing it on a hunch , they must have some evidence that it will help .
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I find it interesting that Panasonic are installing a metal plate behind the screen , you can bet their not doing it on a hunch , they must have some evidence that it will help .
It’s not just Panasonic. If you look at OLED mastering monitors they tend to have big heat sinks and large noisy fans. Suggests the half life curve is true within a certain thermal envelope.

If so that may also mean tickers are a bigger issue then DOGs. Since they tend to be at the bottom of the screen. Where most of the electronics are. And also they cover a large area of screen, making it harder for pixels to get the heat away (since adjacent pixels are also lit up).
 

wass1985

Active Member
Time has changed. Electronics is more fragile now. Including LCD TVs. What's the sense to keep old tv so long?
Because if it's working fine why replace it?

That brand new set you buy with all the bells and whistles will be old news in a year or two.
 

LGSAM

Active Member
It’s not just Panasonic. If you look at OLED mastering monitors they tend to have big heat sinks and large noisy fans. Suggests the half life curve is true within a certain thermal envelope.

If so that may also mean tickers are a bigger issue then DOGs. Since they tend to be at the bottom of the screen. Where most of the electronics are. And also they cover a large area of screen, making it harder for pixels to get the heat away (since adjacent pixels are also lit up).
A year or so ago I was looking at Oleds in a store and realized some of the screens were very hot compared to others which seemed strange as they were all showing the same content , My Oled at home always feels rather cool but as it is a Sony A1 most of the electronics are built into the stand which leans away from the screen but also I have it set at a modest brightness . Not sure if these things make any difference or not .
 
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GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
It’s not just Panasonic. If you look at OLED mastering monitors they tend to have big heat sinks and large noisy fans. Suggests the half life curve is true within a certain thermal envelope.

If so that may also mean tickers are a bigger issue then DOGs. Since they tend to be at the bottom of the screen. Where most of the electronics are. And also they cover a large area of screen, making it harder for pixels to get the heat away (since adjacent pixels are also lit up).
The review of the Panasonic GZ2000 at flatpanelshd is interesting. Panasonic's use of a heat sink may reduce the possibility of burn in - which it turn implies that heat is a significant contributory factor to burn-in.

"Normally, we can provoke temporary retention through the use of our test patterns for calibration. This retention will disappear again soon after. GZ2000 seemed almost immune to our torture tests. Even after long test sessions with a 1000 nits static window there was no retention to be found on the panel - not even on a grey verification pattern. "


Sony's professional 1,000 nit OLED reference panel is very deep. This extra depth may include space for passive cooling such as a heatsink. Whatever passive cooling it may or may not have, it also uses active cooling fans.

 

Homeby51

Member
It may be a little condescending but you seem like a habitual whiner. They fixed your damn TV.
And you seem like an habitual corporate hawk by trolling every OLED burn in thread and pasting the same BS over and over.
BTW...they haven't fixed my TV yet but that is not the point. The point of this thread is to let others know who are considering purchasing an OLED that OLED TV's have a serious problem and to be aware. And judging by the comments and numerous other threads....I am correct.
Sorry if that fact upsets you to the point that you are now spewing nonsense that if you "fear" burn in...then you shouldn't buy one. That's damn comical coming from you since if you were correct in your assertion that the majority of OLED's don't burn in, then you should want every naysayer to purchase one since they will be happily surprised. No?
For those potential consumers who are thinking about shelling out a few thousand for a possibly defective product.....I would think reading these threads are useful.....unlike your input that is of no use to anyone except LG.
 

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