Question Amp burn in necessary? Recommendation to improve HIFI set up

Had this argument many times with my father, a radio and television engineer.
He pooh-poohed the idea of this mystification of electronics.
Claiming it was self deception, wishful thinking.
Have to say, I would agree with your dad on this.
 
When I worked for the National broadcaster in Ireland in the 80s, as a young audio engineer, the criteria were noise, frequency response, distortion, and phase. For turntables there was rumble, for transcription deck cartridges, adherence to equalization, stereo seperation and for tape decks, throw in wow and flutter. All measurable before you sent to the speakers, where all the colouration to the final sound appears, all other things being equal. Impedance matching of speakers was desirable, but not critical at audio frequencies, sub microsecond reflections down your £200 speaker cable (or 4 metres of decent mains flex) are simply not audible. I used to read What Hifi back then, and laugh out at the mystical descriptions of transcription deck transducers or cartridges, when the source was a lump of squashed vinyl with the imprint of the master disk on it. Rubbish in, rubbish out.
Deezell, these discussions always break down into two camps. Those whose business was electronics or broadcasting or studio work and those whose hobby is audio... The latter will not be convinced by rational argument or measurements.
 
Deezell, these discussions always break down into two camps. Those whose business was electronics or broadcasting or studio work and those whose hobby is audio... The latter will not be convinced by rational argument or measurements.
Hmm, a bit like religious devotees, belief is all the evidence needed, rationality does not exist.
 
Deezell, these discussions always break down into two camps. Those whose business was electronics or broadcasting or studio work and those whose hobby is audio... The latter will not be convinced by rational argument or measurements.

Well said. 👍
 
Deezell, these discussions always break down into two camps. Those whose business was electronics or broadcasting or studio work and those whose hobby is audio... The latter will not be convinced by rational argument or measurements.
That sounds quite arrogant, dannielll. Plenty of of laypeople are keen to learn about the specialist science and engineering, and are entirely open to the rationale and evidence. Quiet a proportion of those people are likely to come from other disciplines that have a reasonable understanding of the general scientific method. I would suggest that you're displaying an egocentric outlook that's revealed by your use of mixed tense in your second sentence.
 
We Must Believe in Magic - Crystal Gayle.

A little magic in our lives, helps keep us interested and entertained.
 
That sounds quite arrogant, dannielll. Plenty of of laypeople are keen to learn about the specialist science and engineering, and are entirely open to the rationale and evidence. Quiet a proportion of those people are likely to come from other disciplines that have a reasonable understanding of the general scientific method. I would suggest that you're displaying an egocentric outlook that's revealed by your use of mixed tense in your second sentence.
Yes it is an arrogance..the exact same arrogance that an immunologist working 40 years in the field , has for for a Johnny come lately who suggests that bleach or herd immunity works without any supplied evidence. Science does not have all the answers, but it has the methodology and in this case .. electrical circuits 200 years of evidence.
I cannot offer guidance as to why a person might prefer Def Leopard to Joan Baez, or the significance of the Piano in music development, or the emotional response to a specific chord sequence or or or ... But in the limited world of physical measurement ,I do have expertise

Like many in the Engineering world, I am delighted to assist people in developing their understanding,but less patience in pandering.
Incidentally my use of mixed tenses was very deliberate. The currently employed professional engineers are not in a position to contribute to hobbyist fora, whereas those of us retired and with the interest can.
 
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I'm just thinking, pretence at pandering could help sales. " All our reference amplifiers are burned in for 40 hours to ensure smoothest brightest response" etc. Almost like you're running in new piston rings. Apart from reducing the early fail (i.e, defective) rate, manufacturers would know this is nonsense, but hey, give them what they crave, add an extra £grand for the illusion.
 
Many years ago I was convinced amplifiers needed a run-in, if only for a few hours. I'd listened to a few amps bought new (mine and friends) and was convinced the sound both mellowed and instruments became more individually distinct after say an hour or so.
Then I was offered the chance of a blind test. An amp (a Rotel RB-something and RC-something pre and power if memory serves me correctly) which had been run in for a couple of week in a hi-fi store and the same which had only just been turned on when we entered the audition room (say 10 minutes earlier).
I couldn't tell the difference. Not a bit. Highs, lows, vocals, Richie Blackmore's wailing guitar, Shawn Phillips acoustic (lp and cd) all sounded exactly the same. I honestly couldn't even guess at which was new and which was used.
So now I'm pretty sure that what I heard before was only my self-deception because that's what I wanted. But then, perception is such a big part of listening. So I have to go with the blind listening and accept there is no difference.
Hope that helps :)
 
The only issue I’ve seen in practice is that class A power amps really need to warm up for 30 minutes. I thought that was a bit of a joke until I bought some Atoll power amps which initially sounded hard and unforgiving. After 30 minutes they are transformed. And this is repeatable. But it’s a different issue to burn-in of amps - of that I am not convinced.

Your main issue actually sounds like your room - I moved what was a really nice sounding setup into my main listening room, and there it just sounded poor, regardless of what I did to positioning. In the end I got - after lots of advice from here - a Lyngdorf 2170 which completely fixed all the issues. This had at least an order of magnitude more impact than any of the many other changes I tried to fix things. So if you room has an issue, it may not matter what kit you’ve got - without room correction it may never deliver its full potential.
 
Hi everyone

This is my first post regarding Hifi as I've just purchased my first system!

I have Roksan Blak integrated amp, Node 2i streamer and Fyne Audio F502 loudspeakers. I use Chord Clearway speaker cables and for twin RCA from the Node to the amp.

Firstly, I auditioned a number of integrated amplifiers and all in ones (streamer and amp). The last amp I audtioned was Roksan K3 which I absolutely loved but I decided to buy the Blak as I heard and nothing but amazing reviews and because it is supposed be higher end model with superior components so I didn't even bother to audition it.

The problem is that when I listen to it now it seems a bit 'restrained', does the amp need time to 'burn in'? When I tried the K3 it was already very sweet and open (I guess its been an ex demo model for a good few years) and I also auditioned a new Cyrus One Cast which I really liked sraight out of the box

I really don't want to return the Blak as it seems not to make sense going back to a cheaper/lesser models. The thing is I don't want to take too long to decide because Im afraid I will go over the 14 day cooling off period after which I can't return it.

Does anyone have any experience with the Blak? If the issue is insufficient time to 'burn in' then how long would it take and can this be sped up somehow?

Separately, would adding an external DAC like the Chord Mojo improve sound quality given that it would need to be MQA certified too as I listen to MQA (and non MQA files) through Tidal?

Although, I've bought relatively expensive gear, I'm still really new to HIfi, so please keep your simple as you can.

Thank you so much in advance for your help!

Wai
I have very similar kit to you - Blak amp, Node 2i and even the same speaker cable although I use a set of 1982 B&W DM14 speakers.

I bought the Blak brand new and nearly sent it back after a day of listening. It had
developed a glare that went from treble into mids and lacked bass. However, the dealer assured me it just needed to burn in. I honestly couldn't believe how much it changed over the next few weeks! Its a superb amp. with a very exciting sound and its just what I want at the heart of my system - powerful enough to drive my old sealed box speakers and good enough to almost make the music sound live if I'm playing vinyl (the phono stage needs to burn in too).

One other hint is to try using the interconnects that come with the Node. I tried a few expensive pairs that I have in the house but those ones were the best, I thought surprisingly.
 
That's your brain, your hearing and perception filtering the source psychoacoustically. Over a short time it will adjust your perception in a way plain audio filter could never do. You started with an excellent source, it's still driving the speakers with a signal which is identical from the first day you turned it on. You had never heard this particular system before. Now you have got accustomed to it. Real, measurable artefacts such as noise and distortion, phase and frequency response affect the sound you hear for real reasons, yet you can listen to such a source and not hear these defects as much from repeated listening. What are the units of measurement for audio 'Glare'? By how many micro glints did it reduce? Honestly...
 
2-3 hours in the oven at 100 C - job done :clap:
 
That's your brain, your hearing and perception filtering the source psychoacoustically. Over a short time it will adjust your perception in a way plain audio filter could never do. You started with an excellent source, it's still driving the speakers with a signal which is identical from the first day you turned it on. You had never heard this particular system before. Now you have got accustomed to it. Real, measurable artefacts such as noise and distortion, phase and frequency response affect the sound you hear for real reasons, yet you can listen to such a source and not hear these defects as much from repeated listening. What are the units of measurement for audio 'Glare'? By how many micro glints did it reduce? Honestly...

Hi Deezell,

I take your point. If I had simply percieved an unpleasantness in the sound and then percieved that it had gone away then I would accept, as a possibility, that my brain might have some how filtered the sound.

However, what actually happened was that I took my whole system, minus amplifier in to the dealer. I listened to the dealer's well used Blak and it sounded immediately much like it does at home now. When I got my brand new Blak, it started off as having a very reasonable, balanced sound but after a few hours developed what I call a glare. This was not a nearly imperceptible sound. It was very obvious - it was almost painful to listen to anything played on a piano. Then, after about two days of having the system running (mainly while I was at the other end of the house quietly working) I noticed that the glare was reducing and it did, over the course of a couple of weeks, completely go away. Then the bass filled in.

How do you explain that? Are you suggesting that my brain started off filtering the glare out, then decided to try it for a bit and then thought "no, I'll get rid of the glare and have more bass instead"?

I still hear glare in other systems by the way - my brother's for example so I'm not deaf to it now. I also don't know exactly how to define it scientifically. However, I would describe it as overly pronounced high frequency, an imbalance just like if the acidity is too high in a wine it can be extremely unpleasent. It probably is a form of distortion. In fact, it is - I doubt if Bill Evans spent a long time trying to find "that sound that hurts your ears" and then recorded it.
 
Maybe your speakers had to adjust to your new amp... 🤔

Fair point Nifkin. I don't think that was it though. I have previously used the same speakers with an Ex. demo Roksan K3 and before that, my dad's old Audiolab 8000a/p set up. I never heard any change in the sound after I hooked those up. The only other time I've bought a new amp. was nearly 20 years ago when I was in my last year of high school. It was an Arcam Alpha 7a used with new B&W DM601S3's and I will admit that I don't remember a significant change in its sound during the first few weeks. However if you look at what's inside the Alpha 7 and what's inside the Blak, there's an awful lot more to burn in inside the Blak. Maybe that's a factor too. I don't know. (I love that system and use it with an Alpha 10 DAB in my home office to this day.)
 

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