ALM V BLM

mrs woman

Well-known Member
No but it does invite the possibility, especially if the 'toy gun' looks more like a real gun than an obvious toy.

A 16 year old white boy, also with a realistic pellet pistol, was recently shot by a cop in Maryland. Different case, different place, different police, but his white privilege didn't save him.

I'm not saying the police in the 12 year old's case handled the situation as best they could, they may well have been too hasty, but I haven't seen any reason to assume race had anything to with it.
From what I have seen in America there is a big racist problem whether it's in the community or in institutions. We have seen it with our own eyes and multiple evidence. This doesn't mean every American is racist or that all police are racist. Right now the anti racists are fighting this in communities, on the street and in government. That's a fact.

As I said the gun laws are to blame for many gun killings and when the American people fully accept that, then they can deal with it, finally. But until then a 12 year old boy should not be judged for having a replica gun and being shot dead by the police. At what age is too young to be shot dead for having a replica gun?
 

annemarie1066

Well-known Member
No but it does invite the possibility, especially if the 'toy gun' looks more like a real gun than an obvious toy.

A 16 year old white boy, also with a realistic pellet pistol, was recently shot by a cop in Maryland. Different case, different place, different police, but his white privilege didn't save him.

I'm not saying the police in the 12 year old's case handled the situation as best they could, they may well have been too hasty, but I haven't seen any reason to assume race had anything to with it.
The FBI believe white supremacists have imbedded themselves in Police departments and I am guessing they are better informed.
Heres one
 

pratty

Active Member
The FBI believe white supremacists have imbedded themselves in Police departments and I am guessing they are better informed.
Heres one
Bad apples confirmed. Obviously not good but I think the situation would be a lot worse, and a case for systemic racism throughout the police would be more convincing, if it were confirmed that those directing police policy were white supremacists.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Bad apples confirmed. Obviously not good but I think the situation would be a lot worse, and a case for systemic racism throughout the police would be more convincing, if it were confirmed that those directing police policy were white supremacists.
That's not what systemic racism means.
 

pratty

Active Member
That's not what systemic racism means.
Doesn't it mean that the whole, the police institution in this case, is affected? My understanding may be wrong but it seems logical that those directing the organisation would have great influence over it. Sure you can individuals following their own personal racist policy which seems to be the case, but I think I'd rather take my chances with an unknown quantity of racist individual police officers than an entire organisation that is racist from the top down. Not that either scenario should be tolerated obviously.
 

annemarie1066

Well-known Member
Doesn't it mean that the whole, the police institution in this case, is affected? My understanding may be wrong but it seems logical that those directing the organisation would have great influence over it. Sure you can individuals following their own personal racist policy which seems to be the case, but I think I'd rather take my chances with an unknown quantity of racist individual police officers than an entire organisation that is racist from the top down. Not that either scenario should be tolerated obviously.
It doesnt require the whole organisation is affected, here’s another one. No you shouldn’t steal chicken even if you are homeless but why keep punching someone in the head
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Doesn't it mean that the whole, the police institution in this case, is affected? My understanding may be wrong but it seems logical that those directing the organisation would have great influence over it. Sure you can individuals following their own personal racist policy which seems to be the case, but I think I'd rather take my chances with an unknown quantity of racist individual police officers than an entire organisation that is racist from the top down. Not that either scenario should be tolerated obviously.
It's more to do with culture and environment. Not necessarily that the leaders of an organisation are themselves racist, but they could be.

Just as likely that they're lazy, inept, turn a blind eye, don't want to rock the boat etc etc
 

annemarie1066

Well-known Member
BLM demonstrations have been infiltrated or used by ANTIFA. Fact. Just like other counter demonstrations have been infiltrated by right wing extremists. Fact. To not acknowledge either is to bury ones head in the sand.
Those aren’t facts that’s prejudice. What on earth do you think Antifa is other than the equivalent of the bogeyman?
 

mrs woman

Well-known Member
I think in America some police once they put the badge on become a different person. It's like they are invincible and are entitled to do what they like. There must be something or someone that gave them these ideas that they were unaccountable and could get away with anything. This may also happen in other countries but America seems to have a lot more cases perhaps because of it's gun laws. However it's not always down to guns as we seen with the Rodney King case.

I was sent a link to a dreadful beating to death of a homeless man Kelly Thomas in 2011 by police in California. I feel I can't post it because it's so harrowing and graphic. It was described as one of the worst police beatings in US history. It's on WIKI. This case went on for years and I'm not sure if it was mentioned by the prosecution in Chauvin's trial. They did mention another case a few times but I'm not sure which.

Medical records show that bones in his face were broken and he chocked on his own blood. And compression of the thorax made it impossible for him to breath. I don't think any police were done for it from what I've read and it was still in the news up to last year. I just can't comprehend this. :(
 

4loco

Active Member
I think in America some police once they put the badge on become a different person. It's like they are invincible and are entitled to do what they like. There must be something or someone that gave them these ideas that they were unaccountable and could get away with anything. This may also happen in other countries but America seems to have a lot more cases perhaps because of it's gun laws. However it's not always down to guns as we seen with the Rodney King case.

I was sent a link to a dreadful beating to death of a homeless man Kelly Thomas in 2011 by police in California. I feel I can't post it because it's so harrowing and graphic. It was described as one of the worst police beatings in US history. It's on WIKI. This case went on for years and I'm not sure if it was mentioned by the prosecution in Chauvin's trial. They did mention another case a few times but I'm not sure which.

Medical records show that bones in his face were broken and he chocked on his own blood. And compression of the thorax made it impossible for him to breath. I don't think any police were done for it from what I've read and it was still in the news up to last year. I just can't comprehend this. :(
Two of the policemen were tried and acquitted. That could go some way to explain why some policemen think they are permitted to use a lot of violence.

As in the case of Kelly Thomas - It's not just against black people.

I remember seeing a video many years ago of two policemen called to deal with white teenagers drinking outside. One tried to argue with an officer and the officer choked him out and stood with his limp body hanging by the neck while the teenagers pleaded for him not to kill him. The other officer spotted the camera and tried to get it but they avoided that and the officers released the choke before significant damage was done ( I guess - as I didn't hear any follow up to the video).
 
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mrs woman

Well-known Member
Not that this is a laughing matter but I did have to laugh when a friend on the phone this morning told me about an American lady on her Instagram said "How can your British police arrest a person without a gun, it seems unreal" :)
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
De-escalation definitely needs more focus, that’s clear. But to be fair, when it comes to de-escalation, there isn’t a great deal you can learn in the classroom. The public do tend to have a very unrealistic idea of what de-escalation is and what situations it can be used in, like there are some kind of magic words. I’ve seen police criticised by media and public for other successfully de-escalating, when called to violence at mental health hospitals, while completely overlooking the fact that obviously the highly trained mental health professionals failed to as well. Only way you can really learn is by experience (and to a large degree personality to). What you need is a decent probationary/training period were student officers are constantly assessed. So plucking out figures about training hours etc, without context (there may be much more on the job assessment like there is in the UK that figure won’t account for) doesn’t really tell the whole picture.
 
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De-escalation definitely needs more focus, that’s clear. But to be fair, when it comes to de-escalation, there isn’t a great deal you can learn in the classroom. The public do tend to have a very unrealistic idea of what de-escalation is and what situations it can be used in, like there are some kind of magic words. I’ve seen police criticised by media and public for other successfully de-escalating, when called to violence at mental health hospitals, while completely overlooking the fact that obviously the highly trained mental health professionals failed to as well. Only way you can really learn is by experience (and to a large degree personality to). What you need is a decent probationary period were student officers are constantly accessed. So plucking out figures about training hour etc, without context (there may be much more on the job assessment like there is in the UK that figure won’t account for) doesn’t really tell the whole picture.
When someone is approached by the Police at gunpoint for allegedly passing a fake $20 dollar bill and (understandbly) the guy goes into panic mode - I would have thought it was pretty easy to de escalte the situation. it wasn't even an arrestable offence. How the F it progressed into four armed officers holding a man down and squashing the life out of him is beyond comprehension.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
When someone is approached by the Police at gunpoint for allegedly passing a fake $20 dollar bill and (understandbly) the guy goes into panic mode - I would have thought it was pretty easy to de escalte the situation. it wasn't even an arrestable offence. How the F it progressed into four armed officers holding a man down and squashing the life out of him is beyond comprehension.

Quite right, I was responding generally to figures quoted.
 

4loco

Active Member
Take a look at the faces of these three 'white supremacists'. Do they ever look in the mirror? What on God's green earth makes them think they are a superior race?
No-one likes to think of themselves as way down the ladder, so when someone offers an excuse to consider someone as lower on the ladder, that has a lot of appeal,
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
The Frost Report said it best

Classic sketch and still true. Those on top are still on top. Even if they don't have the money any more, they still have the friends and influence. The new rich have new money and new influence. The middle class is more or less doing OK. The poor are too distracted by the toys created by the new rich. Many of them may end up joining the destitute before they even realise it.
 

mrs woman

Well-known Member
What is worrying for seeking and speaking for justice, is when someone murders someone, it's caught on camera and yet they go to court pleading some kind of excuse to fool everyone. Everyone can clearly see it's murder. But these people chance their arm and hope their lawyer get them off. And what a cold hearted situation to put their loved ones through? They don't care what they did, only care about their life. When did Chauvin say he was sorry? Decent people want justice. They want to live in a civil society and expect the law to protect them against harm.

The jury was not fooled in the Chauvin case and reached a verdict fairly quickly. It's all very well saying this and that have to be considered like drugs, health issues etc, but the defence lawyer in the Chauvin case sickened me. I don't think it would take a rocket scientist to tell that George was killed and by what means. Any lay person can tell if someone's air passage is cut off for a certain time it will cause death. Human beings need air to live. What happened to Kelly Thomas and no one as far as I know has be held to account is a licence to kill.

How many more have happened that were not caught on camera? Annemarie posted earlier the notice put up of the death of George Floyd from a medical incident by the police without knowing it was all filmed. How do these people live with their conscience? Something has to be done or this will explode from frustration and injustice imo.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
How many more have happened that were not caught on camera? Annemarie posted earlier the notice put up of the death of George Floyd from a medical incident by the police without knowing it was all filmed. How do these people live with their conscience? Something has to be done or this will explode from frustration and injustice imo.
They've been doing it for years and getting away with it. As for the explosion, that's already happened a few times. But up until recently it didn't make any difference.
 

Mandark

Active Member
I see there's concerns over the pre-trial activities of the juror, Brandon Mitchell, who's gone public about the trial. I really hope he didn't lie/mislead anyone during jury selection.
 

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