ALM V BLM

pratty

Active Member
There is little to think through to agree that Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor, Rayshard Brooks, Duante Wright and others to numerous to mention should be alive today and that it was the actions of the police that killed them

What you should marvel at is why they should ever have been worth less
We don't seem to be talking about the same thing anymore, I say we need to think through our solutions, and you contest this saying we shouldn't have to think through that there's a problem? I think I'll agree to disagree and leave it there.
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
There is little to think through to agree that Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor, Rayshard Brooks, Duante Wright and others to numerous to mention should be alive today and that it was the actions of the police that killed them

Tamir Rice was brandishing a replica firearm and pointing it at people. Certainly seemed that the cops response was reckless, driving right up to him and shooting fast, rather than holding back and asking him to stand down, but at the end of the day if someone is waving a gun around and pointing it at people there's a strong chance they're going to be shot.

Breonna Taylor was shot by cops responding to her boyfriend firing first. Again the case can be made that the number of shots they fired was excessive but its not unexpected that if you shoot first, that fire will be returned. Tragically she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Rayshard Brooks resisted arrest, grabbed a police officers taser and fired at him. Tragic death, yes. But what is a cop expected to do when someone is firing a weapon at them? And it doesn't matter that it was "only a taser".

Duante Wright was resisting arrest and trying to drive away as the police were trying to arrest him. That doesn't warrant being shot, but as the body cam clearly shows it was a tragic and stupid error by the cop.

4 deaths. 3 of the victims were engaging in a crime at the time of their death.

Do the police need to take major action to address the over aggression on their ranks, yes of course.

But let's not pretend that the police (in the vast majority of cases) are just picking random strangers on the street and shooting them. Only Taylor kinda fits that category since her boyfriend felt that he was lawfully defending himself.

Whilst everyone runs around trying to dismantle the current policing system, who is figuring out why a 12 year old was walking the streets pointing a gun at strangers?
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Tamir Rice was brandishing a replica firearm and pointing it at people. Certainly seemed that the cops response was reckless, driving right up to him and shooting fast, rather than holding back and asking him to stand down..
What you have just described is an officer NOT doing their job properly. Anything after this is just making excuses.

Breonna Taylor was shot by cops responding to her boyfriend firing first. Again the case can be made that the number of shots they fired was excessive but its not unexpected that if you shoot first, that fire will be returned. Tragically she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or:
BBC Article said:
A subsequent police report contained errors, including listing Ms Taylor's injuries as "none" and saying no force was used to enter, when a battering ram had been used.
Mr Hankison was fired from the police after investigators found he had "wantonly and blindly fired 10 rounds" during the raid, according to his termination letter.
See the difference?


Rayshard Brooks resisted arrest, grabbed a police officers taser and fired at him. Tragic death, yes. But what is a cop expected to do when someone is firing a weapon at them? And it doesn't matter that it was "only a taser".
So a black man is on the ground after being shot and yet:
BBC Article said:
Neither officer provided medical attention, prosecutors said, for over two minutes.
But after White Supremecist Dylann Roof shot nine black people and injured at least three more, they were so concerned for his welfare and apparent lack of food, they went out and bought him a burger. Again, see the difference?


Duante Wright was resisting arrest and trying to drive away as the police were trying to arrest him. That doesn't warrant being shot, but as the body cam clearly shows it was a tragic and stupid error by the cop.
Kimberly Ann Potter is a 26 year veteran of the department. She was also a Field Training Officer. In other words she was a senior officer responsible for the training of others. Yet she somehow got her gun and Taser mixed up? At best this was gross incompetence and that's being charitable.

A lot of this comes down to how black men are perceived by a largely white police force. I've previously posted a video by a black comedienne in Chicago who was skipping down an alley and a police officer pulled a gun on her. Do you know why? Because the officer thought that she was a black "man" advancing towards him. Only when she identified herself as a girl did he calm down.
 
Last edited:

Anonymuse

Active Member
What you have just described is an officer NOT doing their job properly. Anything after this is just making excuses.


Or:

See the difference?



So a black man is on the ground after being shot and yet:

But after White Supremecist Dylann Roof shot nine black people and injured at least three more, they were so concerned for his welfare and apparent lack of food, they went out and bought him a burger. Again, see the difference?



Kimberly Ann Potter is a 26 year veteran of the department. She was also a Field Training Officer. In other words she was a senior officer responsible for the training of others. Yet she somehow got her gun and Taser mixed up? At best this was gross incompetence and that's being charitable.

A lot of this comes down to how black men are perceived by a largely white police force. I've previously posted a video by a black comedienne in Chicago who was skipping down an alley and a police officer pulled a gun on her. Do you know why? Because the officer thought that she was a black "man" advancing towards him. Only when she identified herself as a girl did he calm down.
Bravo. I wish I could agree with this more times than a mere 1.
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
A lot of this comes down to how black men are perceived by a largely white police force. I've previously posted a video by a black comedienne in Chicago who was skipping down an alley and a police officer pulled a gun on her. Do you know why? Because the officer thought that she was a black "man" advancing towards him. Only when she identified herself as a girl did he calm down.
So if this is all down to police racism, why didn't he maintain his aggressive stance when he realised she was a girl, but still black?

When the majority of violent crimes in a lot of major cities is committed by black men and a massive percentage of homicides are black men on black men, then why do we assume that police dare racist because they react (and sometimes overreact) to a black man advancing on them?

Should that negative reaction to black men happen? Of course it shouldn't. But it is one half of the problem. Gang membership and criminality amongst young black men is the other half. In your response above you didn't mention the fact that 3 out of the 4 deaths listed above were people engaging in criminality at the time of their deaths.

BLM and politicians are focusing all of their energy on the first part and largely ignoring the second part. They focus on the easy target for abuse and avoid the sensitive and difficult topic, even though it is just as important.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
So if this is all down to police racism, why didn't he maintain his aggressive stance when he realised she was a girl, but still black?
Did you read my post? I know my response was a little long, but then so was your initial post. Anyway in summary:
A lot of this comes down to how black men are perceived by a largely white police force.

When the majority of violent crimes in a lot of major cities is committed by black men
If you have the figures from the FBI to back this up then OK. If not then let's not make huge generalisations.

..and a massive percentage of homicides are black men on black men, then why do we assume that police dare racist because they react (and sometimes overreact) to a black man advancing on them?
So because black men kill each other, the white police man is now more fearful of his life? Plus who is talking about people advancing on them? You have started from a viewpoint then you are trying to reverse engineer a cause.

In your response above you didn't mention the fact that 3 out of the 4 deaths listed above were people engaging in criminality at the time of their deaths.
The point is that in the same situation, a white person is less likely to be killed. Again, see the difference?

Context matters. I and others acknowledge that racism is only one part of the problem. So what should happen is that others like yourself should be concentrating on the other part which is police accountability, then the two sides can the work together. Instead what happens is that you spend more time trying to debunk the racism than actually deal with the core issues.
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
Instead what happens is that you spend more time trying to debunk the racism than actually deal with the core issues.
The entire point of my post was that all of the core issues need to be dealt with, and your take from it is that I'm ignoring the core issues?

Also only a small part of my post was pointing out that racism was not the issue in your example. The majority was about the bigger issues with criminality and social problems. Yet you focus your critism on my views on racism, whilst simultaneously accusing me of doing the same.

You also suggest that I need to acknowledge that the police are part of the problem, after I specifically state that half of the issue is police behaviour.

confused.jpeg
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
The entire point of my post was that all of the core issues need to be dealt with, and your take from it is that I'm ignoring the core issues?

Also only a small part of my post was pointing out that racism was not the issue in your example. The majority was about the bigger issues with criminality and social problems. Yet you focus your critism on my views on racism, whilst simultaneously accusing me of doing the same.

You also suggest that I need to acknowledge that the police are part of the problem, after I specifically state that half of the issue is police behaviour.

View attachment 1502677
In the messages I responded to, your main point was debunking racism. In my last post I talk about my (and others) acknowledgement of racism being only one part of the problem. Not sure where you got the rest from.

Anyway, since you have now reached this conclusion and agree with our main points, there is no further need to continue this so let's move on.
 

Anonymuse

Active Member
The entire point of my post was that all of the core issues need to be dealt with, and your take from it is that I'm ignoring the core issues?

Also only a small part of my post was pointing out that racism was not the issue in your example. The majority was about the bigger issues with criminality and social problems. Yet you focus your critism on my views on racism, whilst simultaneously accusing me of doing the same.

You also suggest that I need to acknowledge that the police are part of the problem, after I specifically state that half of the issue is police behaviour.

View attachment 1502677
I think there is no doubt at all that pure racism was involved in the death of Ahmaud Arbery

 

Mshulla

Member
Tamir Rice was brandishing a replica firearm and pointing it at people. Certainly seemed that the cops response was reckless, driving right up to him and shooting fast, rather than holding back and asking him to stand down, but at the end of the day if someone is waving a gun around and pointing it at people there's a strong chance they're going to be shot.
Tamir Rice wasn't brandishing a replica firearm, he was a 12 year old boy playing with a toy gun.
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
Tamir Rice wasn't brandishing a replica firearm, he was a 12 year old boy playing with a toy gun.
The initial 911 call said that he was waving it around and pointing it at people. That sounds like "brandishing" to me.

And to describe it as a toy gun is misleading. This is what I would think of it you say a "toy gun".
71g9Q1Ft4cL._AC_SX425_.jpg


Tamir Rice was carrying an airsoft replica. They come with an orange tab on the front to stop it from being mistaken for the real thing, something like this.
422030_120414-cc-ss-airsoft-gun-img.jpg


They do this because it is clearly an easy mistake to make.

The one that Rice was using had the orange tip removed. This is a picture of the actual "toy" that Rice had been pointing at strangers in the street.
_79224605_5e7b6e66-2ab6-4882-87de-6c57306e7457.jpg


Do you genuinely not see how this tragic event happened? You think that a cop faced with someone, even at that age, pointing that at random strangers is going to wonder if it's real or not? It's just not realistic. That replica looks very real and any cop will assume it is and take action.

As I said, I would have thought that holding back would make more sense, to give him the opportunity to drop it, but that's just my opinion. Maybe they thought he'd run and escape, I don't know. Also the person who called in the 911 did say that they didn't know if the gun was real, but this information wasn't passed to the cops who attended.
 

mrs woman

Well-known Member
As in the previous post. If anyone at all was pointing that particular replica at people in the street, the cops are going to shoot them.

It's simply nonsensical to say that he was shot because he was black.
You think that any kid who has a replica gun pointing at people, then that just means they will be shot by the police? You cannot be serious. What you should be concerned about is, that this is the state of America because of gun laws and that children in America can't play with a toy gun in the street without been shot and murdered.
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
You think that any kid who has a replica gun pointing at people, then that just means they will be shot by the police? You cannot be serious.
It is beyond me that you can't grasp that being shot was a strong probability when a kid is pointing a gun* at strangers.

*The fact that it wasn't actually a gun isn't relevant to the liklihood of being shot. It looked exactly like a gun and so would be treated as such by the police.
 

mrs woman

Well-known Member
It is beyond me that you can't grasp that being shot was a strong probability when a kid is pointing a gun* at strangers.

*The fact that it wasn't actually a gun isn't relevant to the liklihood of being shot. It looked exactly like a gun and so would be treated as such by the police.
America's gun laws is what is at fault, not the dead child for having a replica toy gun.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
The thing is these guys point guns at people and later have the charges dropped (despite it being a criminal offence). Surely these guys looked more likely to massacre bystanders / protestors than a 12 year old boy with a handgun? Why do a white couple on their lawn get the benefit of the doubt but a 12 year old black boy gets shot?


There are numerous examples of white gunman walking away in handcuffs and black gunmen being wheeled away in bodybags.

As the classic Family Guy clip goes, is he mentally ill (white), or a terrorist (non-White)?
 

DrPhil

Distinguished Member
The thing is these guys point guns at people and later have the charges dropped (despite it being a criminal offence).
I remember that case, and thought that they deserved to be prosecuted. Their defence was that they felt threatened, which you could argue was fair since the protesters were trespassing on private property. But at no point were they under anything other than a perceived threat and a few insults. They were out there brandishing their guns as a show of force and a statement about their second amendment rights blah blah.

As far as I remember the police weren't called though and only got involved later when the video went viral.
 

pratty

Active Member
You think that any kid who has a replica gun pointing at people, then that just means they will be shot by the police?
No but it does invite the possibility, especially if the 'toy gun' looks more like a real gun than an obvious toy.

A 16 year old white boy, also with a realistic pellet pistol, was recently shot by a cop in Maryland. Different case, different place, different police, but his white privilege didn't save him.

I'm not saying the police in the 12 year old's case handled the situation as best they could, they may well have been too hasty, but I haven't seen any reason to assume race had anything to with it.
 

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