All the English teams are out...

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
Well, that's all the English teams out of the Champions League ;) Something not quite right about the foreign team fielding more English players than the English team with a grand total of one...

I never agreed with the old limit of three foreign players, but I never thought I'd see the day when perhaps there should be a rule saying there should be a minimum of three 'home' players.

Great match to watch though. :thumbsup:
 

KevD

Novice Member
But Arsenal aren't out :rolleyes:
The way I see it is, if fit, Cole and Campbell would have been in the team thats two. Chelsea in the first choice side have only 3 English guys the same with Liverpool, so no difference really.

Dissapointed only 1 of our teams left, especially when its Arsenal :devil: Hopefullly this will affect them in the league :)
 

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
KevD said:
But Arsenal aren't out :rolleyes:
Umm.... humour bypass?? :hiya:
KevD said:
The way I see it is, if fit, Cole and Campbell would have been in the team thats two. Chelsea in the first choice side have only 3 English guys the same with Liverpool, so no difference really.
But don't you think that there should be a least one player in a fielded team that actually comes from the same country as the team??
 

KevD

Novice Member
Ian_S said:
Umm.... humour bypass?? :hiya:


But don't you think that there should be a least one player in a fielded team that actually comes from the same country as the team??
No completey got the humour, was just making a point that if Chelsea or Liverpool had a couple of Injuries they would likely field a non Eng XI.
i also agree that this shouldnt happen, but it does until Fifa get their new laws in place :thumbsup:
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to
 

KevD

Novice Member
la gran siete said:
rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to
Sadly I think its going to be a case of 3/4 of them having to be in the squad. thne clubs will then insist on being allowed 7 subs and this is how they will get around it :thumbsdow
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Ian_S said:
Well, that's all the English teams out of the Champions League ;) Something not quite right about the foreign team fielding more English players than the English team with a grand total of one...

I never agreed with the old limit of three foreign players, but I never thought I'd see the day when perhaps there should be a rule saying there should be a minimum of three 'home' players.

Great match to watch though. :thumbsup:
Erm, can't really see your point? Liverpool fielded teams in the 80's that were successful in Europe with few Englishmen. In 86' they were the 1st ever team to win the FA cup final with not one Englishmen in the side. Yet we didn't hear all this moaning about 'foreigners' then. ;)
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
la gran siete said:
rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to
Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.
 

pringtef

Active Member
la gran siete said:
rules need to change so that ALL the teams are required to field at least six nationals across Europe both at domestic level as well as champions league. This would make clubs develop their own players or buy from the lower leagues again like they used to
It won't ever be nationals, EU law won't allow that.

UEFA are planning to introduce a home grown player type rule starting 2006-2007 season for their competitions. Think it's along the lines of there needs to be four locally trained players in the squad, which constitutes two players brought through the clubs own academy, and another two through through any of the associations clubs academies. These will still allow for these players to be non nationals, to prevent breaching EU employment laws.

Gather that even though they've been careful to omit from their rule changes a players nationality, the EU are questioning whether this rule indirectly discriminates against players from another country.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
overkill said:
Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.
No, i agree with the wage cap as well and have said so before
 

DJT75

Distinguished Member
overkill said:
Erm, can't really see your point? Liverpool fielded teams in the 80's that were successful in Europe with few Englishmen. In 86' they were the 1st ever team to win the FA cup final with not one Englishmen in the side. Yet we didn't hear all this moaning about 'foreigners' then. ;)
Erm....No Englishmen in the starting 1986 FA Cup Final team?

Liverpool : Grobbelaar, Nicol, MacDonald, Lawrenson, Whelan, Hansen, Walsh (sub Wark), Johnston, Rush, Molby, McMahon.

Well, there's a regular England B international striker & an English midfielder who went to the Wordl Cup in an England shirt that very same year!!:nono:
 

Sick Boy

Active Member
overkill said:
Won't work Siete. You would need to introduce a wage cap as well. One of the reasons the 'big' clubs go foreign is they can get away with paying lower wages. Sadly our young players are too greedy - for their own good. Hence Wenger, Benitez, Ferguson, and even the likes of big Sam increasingly go abroad for playing staff.
Poor shout. It's the clubs in England demanding too big a transfer fee for their players.
 

Sick Boy

Active Member
DJT75 said:
Erm....No Englishmen in the starting 1986 FA Cup Final team?

Liverpool : Grobbelaar, Nicol, MacDonald, Lawrenson, Whelan, Hansen, Walsh (sub Wark), Johnston, Rush, Molby, McMahon.

Well, there's a regular England B international striker & an English midfielder who went to the Wordl Cup in an England shirt that very same year!!:nono:

Correct. It wasn't until the 90's that Liverpool reached that milestone.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Sick Boy said:
Poor shout. It's the clubs in England demanding too big a transfer fee for their players.
Once again, I have to question where, apart from thin air, you get your info.;) :D We are talking about youth players, and the wage demands English players make - this has nothing to do with the clubs. All this was discussed in an excellent article in WSC a while back, and confirmed by comments made by several Premiership managers. It isn't just Arsenal who rely heavily now on young foreign players. Do you really think clubs would waste their time scouring Europe to find young talent, if they could use home grown, youth team produced stars instead?

It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.

I blame that greedy load of parasites they call agents personally.

DJT75 you call yourself a liverpool fan?:rolleyes: The actual team for the 1986 FA cup final was :-

Grobbelaar, Lawrenson, BEGLIN, Nicol, Whelan, Hansen, Dalglish, Johnston, Rush, Molby, Macdonald. I.e. four Scots, three Eire, one Welshman, One from Zimbabwe, one from South Africa, and one Dane. NO Walsh, NO Englishmen.

You were saying Sickboy?:devil: Bring it on.............:D
 

DJT75

Distinguished Member
OK Overkill you got me, my 11 was from an earlier round. Anyway - absolutely no comparison to what Arsenal are doing at the moment, with the exception of flying visits from Campbell & Gilbert you've gone about 40 games without using Englishmen......With Campbell finished & Cole on his way out you'll be left with none (unless Wallcott actually gets a run out)
 

po_man

Active Member
Don't remember too many people complaining about Liverpools 2005 Champions League winning team - only 2 English men in that team - Carragher and Gerrard.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
DJT75 said:
OK Overkill you got me, my 11 was from an earlier round. Anyway - absolutely no comparison to what Arsenal are doing at the moment, with the exception of flying visits from Campbell & Gilbert you've gone about 40 games without using Englishmen......With Campbell finished & Cole on his way out you'll be left with none (unless Wallcott actually gets a run out)
Good man! :D Never said there was a comparison, and I am as just unhappy about it as anybody else.

The point was, that this whole 'no Englishmen' bit is hardly exclusive to Arsenal, nor is it anything new. Nor, come to mention it, is the complaining about it either. The above cup final squad drew criticism at the time.

Personally I would love to see Arsenal fielding at least 60% English players. However, until our contract system, and local born players wage demands get sorted out and come down, that's not going to happen.

Just look at Liverpool. When you think the major English signing of late was Crouch, and he came in with a whole plethora of Spanish, French and 'other continentals', it's a poor look out for English football.
 

neilo

Banned
overkill said:
Good man! :D Never said there was a comparison, and I am as just unhappy about it as anybody else.

The point was, that this whole 'no Englishmen' bit is hardly exclusive to Arsenal, nor is it anything new. Nor, come to mention it, is the complaining about it either. The above cup final squad drew criticism at the time.

Personally I would love to see Arsenal fielding at least 60% English players. However, until our contract system, and local born players wage demands get sorted out and come down, that's not going to happen.

Just look at Liverpool. When you think the major English signing of late was Crouch, and he came in with a whole plethora of Spanish, French and 'other continentals', it's a poor look out for English football.
Wont all this change when UEFA new rules kick in ?
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
neilo said:
Wont all this change when UEFA new rules kick in ?
I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. :rolleyes: Watch this space.
 

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
Good to see a nice healthy debate :thumbsup:

I wasn't really trying to make a point as such, and I know this has been happening for quite some time too and that Arsenal aren't the first and probably won't be the last.

I guess what concerns me more though is that if you look at the big foreign sides, they all seem to maintain a decent number of national players. Real still have a Spanish core, the big italian teams still have a good home contingent, Lyon still lots of French.

None of the other major european nations seem to be quite as reliant on foreign players as the English, we seem to be at the extreme end. Also, English players abroad are something of a rarity as well. Is it the money in the English game that causes it?

If teams had to have a minimum number of home players would it help the national side and would it help ensure that the best home young talent actually got a chance to play at the top level?

I agree wholeheartedly with other comments on greed with wages. Players and agents must shoulder some of the blame as well. However by far the larger blame must lie with the authorities for not having the balls to stand up to the task of doing the right thing instead of bowing to the huge sums involved.
 

DJT75

Distinguished Member
overkill said:
I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. :rolleyes: Watch this space.
Also, the planned changes won't make a single bit of difference, the rules will mean that a certain number of players must be "home-grown". Fabregas, Lupoli etc have been there for years & so qualify... Teams will just sign more young players (under 15) & stick them in the youth teams.....
 

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
overkill said:
I was hoping so neilo, but then 'the parasites' said they will take UEFA to court as the new rules would lead to 'restraint of trade' and 'discrimination'. :rolleyes: Watch this space.
I wonder how long it will take someone to challenge the ability within the EU not to be able to play for any national side within the EU?? After all, they're all professionals, they get paid for it presumably, therefore by the crazy logic applied to these scenarios surely that too is restraint of trade??

Now common sense says that's barmy, but, maybe that ruling needs to be made so you can then argue that competitions like the CL are also in effect cross nation competitions and therefore it's not restraint of trade to insist there are least some native players taking part... Otherwise, surely The Euro 2008 championships are void? Why couldn't Real Madrid join the English Premier League? It's all jobs and business isn't it by the 'parasites' rules??

:devil: :devil: :devil:
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Ian_S said:
I wonder how long it will take someone to challenge the ability within the EU not to be able to play for any national side within the EU?? After all, they're all professionals, they get paid for it presumably, therefore by the crazy logic applied to these scenarios surely that too is restraint of trade??

Now common sense says that's barmy, but, maybe that ruling needs to be made so you can then argue that competitions like the CL are also in effect cross nation competitions and therefore it's not restraint of trade to insist there are least some native players taking part... Otherwise, surely The Euro 2008 championships are void? Why couldn't Real Madrid join the English Premier League? It's all jobs and business isn't it by the 'parasites' rules??

:devil: :devil: :devil:
With the insane logic that seems to applied to football (and it seems only to football) I wouldn't be at all surprised!

The problem even with a minimum number of players born in a country having to be in a team means, if the players and agents stop to think about it, that their services will become more desired not less! They will be in a dangerously commanding position if the club is required to use their services.
 

Sick Boy

Active Member
overkill said:
Once again, I have to question where, apart from thin air, you get your info.;) :D We are talking about youth players, and the wage demands English players make - this has nothing to do with the clubs. All this was discussed in an excellent article in WSC a while back, and confirmed by comments made by several Premiership managers. It isn't just Arsenal who rely heavily now on young foreign players. Do you really think clubs would waste their time scouring Europe to find young talent, if they could use home grown, youth team produced stars instead?

It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.

I blame that greedy load of parasites they call agents personally.

DJT75 you call yourself a liverpool fan?:rolleyes: The actual team for the 1986 FA cup final was :-

Grobbelaar, Lawrenson, BEGLIN, Nicol, Whelan, Hansen, Dalglish, Johnston, Rush, Molby, Macdonald. I.e. four Scots, three Eire, one Welshman, One from Zimbabwe, one from South Africa, and one Dane. NO Walsh, NO Englishmen.


You were saying Sickboy?:devil: Bring it on.............:D
So you are telling me that an up and coming youth player at Bristol Rovers would rather stay there than jump at a move to Chelsea, Because he thought that they were not offering enough money. Absolute ******. Where do you get YOUR facts from. Agents do not make money off of players wages, unless that now they are Agencys offering their workers but paying the wages themselves.

'It's a sad thought that clubs would prefer to release a promising young English star to a 'lesser light', with whom he knows cannot expect the same pay, but at least he'll get football, than hang on to them and pay double what they expect elsewhere.'

If a player wants to leave because he will get first team football, then fair enough. Don't try to tell me he will leave because they are not paying enough. Wht is he proving by making such a stance apart from admitting he might be a ****?

I can see myself in work dictating that unless they pay me more money I am going to go to a worse company for less money:suicide:

Scott Sinclair (ex Bristol Rovers is my example) where are yours Overkill?:hiya: The bible is full of a lot of words but no facts.
 

KevD

Novice Member
I have to agree with Sick Boy here, I dont think the young players are being greedy with wage demands. In fact I wouldnt say many players these days have wage demands them selves.
The clubs demand high fees and if your spending a huge amount on an unproven youugster, the fact that you have spent so much means you have to secure your investment with lucrative deals and this is where the agents come in and demand on the players behalf. Do ou really believe Walcott instructed his agent to demand 10k out of Arsenal or he wont join?? I dont think so and I dont believe our young players are any different from those elsewhere. where yes money is a factor but so is playing with the beast players in the top teams.
 

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