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All 1366 x 768 LCD TV's = BAD FOR HD ?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by shaddow2005, Aug 12, 2005.

  1. shaddow2005

    shaddow2005
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    1st some facts:

    1. 1366 x768 Is NOT a known HD resolution thus ANY HD feed will need to be scaled to fit the full screen and this leads to a degraded picture. (Just try using a PC LCD Monitor @ a non native resolution)

    2. UK SKY HD will be 720p

    3. XBOX 360 will be 720p or 1080i

    4. Only smaller (< 30") LCD TV's are native 720p (1280 x 720)

    5. Only Sharp make a 1080i LCD TV's (1920x1080) and are 45" > £4000!!


    Warning : Rant ahead!
    ---------------------

    So it seems that the only reason for the 1366x768 resolution is due to manufacturers being unable to make the LCD pixels physicaly bigger ?
    Why no LCD TVs > 30" @ 1280 x 720 ? .

    For Upscaled non HD material this is ok (as it would need to be upscalled anyway) but for true HD this means some sort of scaling is required rather than just displaying at the native resolution. Either 720p UP or 1080i/p Down either way = degraded picture.

    I already have a 32" CRT so I'm not really wanting to spend loads of money to downsize to a 30" !

    So for a while now I've been looking for a 32" + (pref 40") LCD TV to work with my Home brew Media Centre PC (2005).

    It seems that most TV's have a big problem displaying Native resolution 1:1 over DVI. (Due to lack of EDID specifications for these higher resolutions?).

    Many TV's offer PC Compatible connections via VGA - BUT are often limited to 1024x768 and that is not even Widescreen ratio thus causing many problems!

    Now I know some do support native res but they are few and far between.

    My main usage for a new screen will be Media Center PC but more likely now it will be via an XBOX 360.

    Recently there have been details that the 360 will support a VGA connection.
    They say VGA HD (This as far as I know is not a known standard , i mean the HD bit)

    From what I can see from pictures from the internet it is just a Component > VGA cable. (Analogue)

    I currently have a PC with 2 identical Viewsonic 19" LCD screens attached and I cannot tell the difference between the one connected via VGA and the other via DVI so at the 1280x1024 res (similar to 720p) this makes no real difference.

    I've seen the 24" Dell screens and they are @ 1920 x 1200 . (Thats a 120 extra lines than 1080i) so that seems overkill.

    Why cant the PC and TV guys agree on 1 standard- its nearly as bad as DVD HD vs Blue Ray !

    Can anyone out there clarify any of my issues , suggest a good 40-42" LCD TV @ 720p res ?

    Thanks

    V.Confused, been looking for HD for a while,
    never found the right solution.

    Greg
     
  2. Deku

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    Scaling, I suspect is just something you'll have to get used to. I have the Dell 2405FPW. My XBOX running at 720p (w/ Amped 2) looks just fine.

    Take the Madagascar 720p trailer from http://www.divx.com/. Running the trailer on a 17inch lcd at 1280x1024 (1280x720), and then again on the 2405FPW at 1920x1200 (1920x1080), I see no real difference in quality.

    A computer desktop is a different story though, any lowering of resolution from the native, and the degradation is obvious.
     
  3. David Mackenzie

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    The full 1080 panels are simply too expensive right now. 768 lines is great for showing 720p so no, they are not bad for HD. Just like any other technology, we have to accept that what we buy today will probably look like crap in 3-5 years.
     
  4. moveq

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    There are rumours around that the BenQ's new 37" 1080p display is going to be out in a month or two, and the initial price would be about 1600 euros. That will probably be a pretty good choice for HD since 1080p is exactly 1.5 times bigger than 720p in both horizontal and vertical directions. The pixels are very tiny so scaling 720p on that one is bound to look good. Ofcourse it depends on the scaler, but adding one extra pixel after every two should be an easy task. Wise men those who thought up 1080p and 720p :)
     
  5. Rob1698

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    Of course not. When a 32", 37" and 42" panel are all made at 1366x768 it should be no problem to make a 32" panel at 1280x720.

    However, you should consider that even a 1280x720 panel would not be able to display a 720p transmission in standards-compliant mode and without scaling. A part of the 1280x720 area is defined as "overscan" and should be cropped off. This is done for the benefit of CRT sets which always need some tolerance for picture size.

    The manufacturer has to decide between not complying to the relevant SMPTE specs and display the full frame, or be compliant with the standard and crop the frame (by 16 pixels all around).

    The Philips 9986 displays a 720p picture completely, and does not scale it. This leaves a black border. A 1080i picture is cropped and scaled, so you get fullscreen but not the complete 1920x1080 picture (easily detectable when you feed it with computer output; you see only part of the menubar)
     
  6. Rob1698

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    It does not really matter if the scaling factor is a nice fraction. A good scaler does not handle the picture one-pixel-at-a-time.
     
  7. moveq

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    I know this as I am a gfx programmer. It does actually matter in two ways. When having a "nice" scale ratio even the worstly written scalers cannot do that bad a job. Also, scaling would be no problem if it could be done in photoshop-fashion by the TVs' logic. However this is not possible as it requires quite a lot of memory and processing power. Looking at the scaling results of the screens it looks to me as the usual approach is a very simple interpolation. I'd be very happy to get my hands on a set using bicubic interpolation for scaling.
     
  8. Rob1698

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    Actually, scaling in todays products from companies like Faroudja and Philips goes even further than what you could call photoshop-fashion.
    Not only indidividual frames are taken into account, but successive frames are used to gather motion info.
    Of course it requires a lot of memory and processing power. That is why those TVs are quite expensive.
     
  9. shaddow2005

    shaddow2005
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    So for the XBOX 360 which will have a VGA connector I expect the results will be the same as connecting a PC to LCD TV. (The 360 will have a ATI Graphics engine)

    So when it displays 720p I would imagine that it will just be outputing a PC VGA signal at the EXACT 1280x720 resolution.

    Thus If I have a LCD TV @ 1280x720 this will match 1:1 ; no scaling required = perfect picture.

    BUT If I have a LCD TV @ 1366x768 (is that any multiple of 1280x720 ??), it will have to do some major scaling = i.e not just 1:5 up as in 1080i.

    And as I expect the results to be similar to PC output to LCD this will look aweful. I would liken it to displaying 1024x768 on a 1280x1024 native resolution LCD and everyone knows that running non native resolution looks really bad.

    So the only hope for XBOX 360 users is that you can change the resolution to match the 1:1 of your LCD Screen. (But I think it will only be supporting 720p / 1080i + pal non hd, its not really like a PC where you can tinker with it that much)

    I was about to buy a 40" Samsung LCD panel (1366x768), but this recent 360 VGA announcement got me thinking ! (That and a friend just bought a 1280x720 projector)

    What I think I need now is a Large 30"+ 1280x720 panel, which I can probably get cheap now cos everyone is after the 1366x768 panels. - Either that OR I wait for the 1080i's. (But only really wanted to spend < £2k

    I've got till november which is when the XBOX 360 comes out to see what panels come out..
     
  10. Rob1698

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    When you want to use a panel with VGA or DVI you better shop for a computer panel instead of a TV. Then you have computer-compatible resolution and refresh rate, and no scaling.
    Several manufacturers have largish computer displays in their line these days.
    A TV can be used as a computer display, but it is not optimal for that use.
     
  11. moveq

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    Yes, those do use motion adaptive de-interlacing, but I don't think it is in any way linked to the scaling process. i.e Scaling itself does not use information form several frames. The scaling is done after the image has been de-interlaced. It would be softwarevise absurd to try to mix those routines up together. Interpolating pixels together between frames only causes motion blur, I've done that intentionally :). But to be honest, I'm not a TV expert so can't really say what those sets are using.. Maybe that's why they still have motion blur even though 8ms response time is reported. :D :D
     
  12. shaddow2005

    shaddow2005
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    More rants!!
    -----------

    The trouble is that most computer screens do not do 1280x720 native resolution !!! doh..

    I think I'm still better of with a 1280x720 TV for XBOX 360 VGA, especially when next year I need to use it with SKY HD again @ 720p - this will have HDMI / Component connections.

    Or should I go with the Flow and buy a 1366 x 768 TV ? and accept that any 720p upscaling is inevitable and probably not very noticeable unless displaying small text fonts like on a PC - I guess most Media Centre screens have large fonts etc..

    It was just from the bad experience of running a PC LCD at non Native resolutions giving such a bad image that I thought it would be best to get a Native HD resolution screen that matched the source.. seems to make sense.

    Ahhh.

    The problem may only rear its ugly head when people start using this HD kit. I.e when people compare using a 360 on 2 screens side by side .
    One Native 1280x720 and the other upscaling to 1368x768. Most people probably wont notice as they will be blown away by the much better HD graphics anyway ;-)

    Has anyone tried running their 1368x768 LCD with a PC VGA input @ 1270x720 ? - I guess this would be the best comparison we can make today. I suspect it will look terrible.
     
  13. c.jelly

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    shaddow -- Alot of the points you make are to do with VGA mode.

    The majority of TVs only do VGA mode using 1:1 pixel mapping, which means no problems with the Xbox 360/PCs using this method.
     
  14. shaddow2005

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    More on XBOX 360 HD Output

    Some quotes:

    The Xbox 360’s advanced video scaler will scale the game’s native resolution to the end consumer’s requested resolution with extremely high quality output. Bottom line, the games will look amazing.


    According to the TCR's devs only need to target 720p. The outboard display chip is responsible for scaling the image. It can scale up to 1080i or down to 480i/p. MS made this decision in order to support ALL HDTV's without requiring specific developer support for each display mode, as was the case with XBox 1. Many older HD displays are limited to supporting only 1080i or only 720p.

    Because it does its scaling in the analog domain, this display chip is incapable of digital outputs like DVI/HDMI or supporting 1080p. It was designed by MS's WebTV group. Right now it is limited to composite, s-video, component, and vga. The chip can be re-engineered and changed later since it is seperate from Xenos to support digital out, but that could create consumer confusion as to which XBox units do what.


    Also

    My understanding is that all games will be rendered at 1280x720 then the webtv chip will convert that resolution to whatever mode your television supports, whether it is 480i/p, 720p or 1080i. Earlier MS had stated that they would encourage developers to support 4x3 mode, and most kids games will probably support this mode.

    This means that the average person doesn't need to do anything, the games will work on all televisions without problems or knowledge of what is happening behind the scenes. It is probably a good thing that the xbox chip does the upscaling / downscaling because I have heard of televisions that do a horrible job of doing this. I bet that the 720p to 1080i output will look real nice.



    No mention of the weird NON HD Resolution of 1366x768.. !!! So the best you can do is output 720p or 1080i and have the tv scaler mangle it :-(
     
  15. MADMAND

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    The image scaler inside the tv will convert the signal to 1366x768p, showing just as much detail as 720p at a higher resolution.
     
  16. moveq

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    The amount of detail will be the same, but the image will appear softer because the missing information has to be interpolated...
     
  17. Rob1698

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    Descriptions you can find on the net about systems like Faroudja DCDi and Philips Pixel Plus 2 clearly describe how the scaling (and associated jagged-line-removel) is coupled with the motion compensation for best results.
    How much these sales-blurbs and the real implementation have in common, I don't know...
     
  18. c.jelly

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    If you're using a VGA connection, on most HD Ready TV's, they will show the image pixel-for-pixel at 1280x720 using an Xbox 360.

    There will be no scaling unless component is used.
     
  19. moveq

    moveq
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    I couldn't find anything associating scaling with motion compensation. I didn't want to put too much time into it though. If you have a link at hand I'd like to take a look at what they say about it...

    That DCDi is nothing more than Faroudja's technology for de-interlacing.
     
  20. mattg

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    sorry to open up another can of worms, but will there be issues with the ps3 aswell?
    I would prefer the 1366*768 resoultion as it is closer to my native resolution on my laptop (1400*1050) but don't mind sticking to 1280*768 if it will be pants. the ps3 is the most important use of the new tv I will be purchasing soon.
     
  21. jtorry

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    why not wait until the closer to the PS3's launch. Currently Sony are saying spring, but nothing is set in stone.
     
  22. mattg

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    well I am going back to uni in september and really wanted to purchase before then; other wise the money may get diverted onto clearing my bar tab. Which is not where I want my hard earned money going! Christmas is the latest I would wait, but since I tried the asda model I really miss a 26" screen. My 14 box just doesn't seem the same anymore...

    On another thread a chap said he looked at the 1366 screens and said they looked awesome in HD. so maybe its not all doom and gloom?
     
  23. shaddow2005

    shaddow2005
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    Exactly Madmand.

    It will mangle the 1:1 720p image by trying to upscale it to this weird 1366x768 resolution! = bad quality picture.
     
  24. MADMAND

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  25. moveq

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    I took a few snapshots of my Funai 32" LCD (native 1366x768) displaying a 1:1 res and scaling from 1280x720. Figured it would give some idea to people asking this scaling question.. However, for some reason I can no longer get an ftp connection up to put them on the web. Any ideas how I could get them to this thread? The images are too big to be directly posted here ~300 KB each. Tried one of those free web drive thingies but it wouldn't let me share the files unless I pay :)
     
  26. mattg

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    put them in a zip file and upload them onto www.yousendit.com. then post the link they email you into this thread. This ONLY lasts a week however.
    or sign up to photobucket or imageshack and upload them to your acount and post the link to the pictures in this thread.
    I've got an account if you wanted to email them to me to do?
     
  27. Scotty306

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    seems i'm always recommending www.pufile.com for image hosting :)

    xBox is component over VGA, but I think PS3 will have twin HDMI sockets, although Sony do seem to be changing the specs a lot so who knows!

    I get the feeling the PS3's launch is still 12mths away though, they seem way behined xbox who look set for launch in November for pre-orders
     
  28. shaddow2005

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  29. shaddow2005

    shaddow2005
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    Ok So after having a look at these I am a little confused!.

    Exibit B: (1st one listed that is a close up) You can clearly see where the Scaling up to 1366x768 has caused major shaddowing on the text and blurring the image on the PSP game.

    Exibit A: (2nd one) The fonts actually look better on the 1366x768 image!. It looks more like a windows Cleartype effect kicking in!

    Thus my only conculsion is that for Big screen gaming I am not really going to notice the difference?. Only for close up computer use would I notice the difference and if I was using a real computer I would be able to switch the resolution to the correct native res i.e @ 1366x768, but I have a perfectly good pc screen anyways ;-)

    So for XBOX 360 gaming that is probably fixed to 1280x720 VGA resolution I will probably see no difference, possibly a bit fuzzy at extreme close up but further away this may even help..

    Thanks again to Moveq... I will be again looking at 1366x768 screens again :)

    So what screens are worth waiting for ?

    Toshiba? New samsung / sony ?
     
  30. moveq

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    Thanks for posting the images.

    By opening those first two images in separate tabs in Firefox and switching between them, it can be seen that the one without scaling seems to have more detail. This is noticeable on the title of the game disc. Also the big PSP logo seems to be darkened by the scaling.
     

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