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ALIS -Facts reply from FUJITSU

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Cliff, Apr 14, 2005.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
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    ALIS – Some facts from Fujitsu

    I was amazed at the amount mis-information on this forum by the “so called experts” . So to get some straight answers I e mailed Fujutsu.

    BUT Before you read the facts from FUJITSU let me remind you of the some of these myths propagated by our experts.

    ALIS panels always run a 60Hz rate- therefore there will be a frame conversion!
    False: – the display refresh runs at both rates, 50Hz for PAL and 60Hz for NTSC signals.
    – no judder. unlike a scalar driving a 60Hz panel from a 50Hz signal

    ALIS panels only show 512 “lines” of resolution
    False: the panel will show a full 1024 lines of resolution.
    Take a picture at 1/20 th sec and you will see full 1024 detail.

    ALIS panels share 512 subpixels and therefore is equivalent to a 512 progressive display
    False: there are 1024 addressable locations for each FRAME

    ALIS panels down convert to 576i to 512i or p
    False: –they up convert to 1024p and then to 1024i. So resolution is not lost with a PAL signal.

    ALIS panels display PAL at a frame rate 1/25.
    False: each PAL field is put into a frame store and the resultant picture is “video” ie information changes every 1/50th

    And Lastly
    ALIS panels will down res 720p/50 to 512
    False: It will upscale 712p to a 1/50 sec frame store and then to the 1024 display

    Cliff
    ____________________________________________



    REPLY FROM FUJITSU EUROPE

    From: Bischoff, Martin [mailto:Martin.Bischoff@fme.fujitsu.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:50 PM
    Cc: Wegener, Thomas; Nose, Hisashi
    Subject: RE: Alis resolution questions

    Thank you very much for your interest and questions about PDP products. Please let me answer your questions below. If you need further help please don’t hesitate to get in contact with us.
    with best regards,
    Martin Bischoff


    (In my e mail I mentioned the Sony KDEP42XS1)

    My questions were:-

    1) When viewing a PAL picture is the panel refresh rate 50 or 60 Hz ?

    Answer: Talking about our PAL with 50Hz refresh rate the PDP is also operated with 50 Hz.

    2) When using a 60Hz source the PDP is also operated with 60Hz.
    How is the 576i displayed? Is it translated to 512i 50Hz
    Or is it mapped to 576p

    Answer: The 576i (PAL) is first de-interlaced to 576p/50, then up scaled to 1024p/50 and also horizontally scaled to 1024 pixel, then according to the current field the odd or even lines are sent to the PDP as 1080i/50

    3) A Hi Def input say 720/50 How would this be mapped?

    Answer: As explained above leaving out the de-interlacing since 720 is already progressive

    4) I understand 1080i/50 can be mapped 1:1 (Vert)with a few spare lines missing at the top and bottom.

    Answer. Yes that could be done, at least in Japan some TV makers use this function. If that is done in the SONY version as well I do not know.




    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    So let's keep the forum factual in future please!

    Cliff
     
  2. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Cliff

    Interesting that your Thread appears Twice - is at an Interlaced thread split across two passes on the Forums :)

    So its all clear as mud now and Fujitsu ALIS is a faultless High End processor even though ALIS was designed to allow Fujitsu to enter the SVGA market with a lower cost VGA pixel array.

    I wonder too why ALIS being faultless has had to be replaced/superseded with e-ALIS - seems odd to throw away the superior ALIS technology.

    A quick question - What do I set my Video Processor to Output to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1024x1024 ALIS Display?

    Here is a 'factual' link:

    http://edevice.fujitsu.com/fhp/pdp/fhp_pdp/e-pdp-bt201.html

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  3. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Sorry about the double posting - :)

    Actually I thought the explanation was clear enough to put some of the myths to rest!

    I think you have hit the nail on the head re 1:1
    - because you cannot connect a scalar to the display properly like you can with a progressive device it gets shot down in flames.

    What you have to understand is that the scaling electronics is internal and designed for ALIS.

    And yes, if you can make a higher res display for less money what's wrong with that.

    Not saying ALIs is the best but it does not deserve to be dismissed, as it often is here, because it does not interface well with a scaler.
    As for e Alis well can't stop progress..
     
  4. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Hmmm. I don't think this clarifies anything, really. If you check the link from Joe's post (which is on the Fujitsu website) this confirms that any one pixel is updated only 30 times a second - which means that if the input signal is 60Hz progressive scan (e.g. 720p) it will either have to be downscaled to 512 lines or have every alternate frame thrown away.
     
  5. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    NicolasB

    I reckon Dan Brown could have a new best seller on his hands if he tried to unravel the mystery that is ALIS processing!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    <Answer: The 576i (PAL) is first de-interlaced to 576p/50, then up scaled to 1024p/50 and also horizontally scaled to 1024 pixel, then according to the current field the odd or even lines are sent to the PDP as 1080i/50>

    So it's upscaled to 1024P then somehow we get a jump to 1080i.....er...ok...I suppose he means 1024i...or does he?

    Also if you are going to bring scalers in to it and quote that there is judder if you use them to send 50Hz to a 60Hz refresh display....I think you ought to also mention that if you send ANY 50Hz signal to a display that only refreshes at 60Hz it will judder, not just scalers.

    Cheers,
    G
     
  7. Cliff

    Cliff
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    It we were converting to 60hz then you would see judder -as you say Gordon.

    The refresh rate for PAL is not 60 Hz it is 50Hz- (The website is written with NTSC in mind)

    I did spot the typo (1080) but left it verbatum.
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Ah...so you're sure it's a typo then......don't you think in the interests of your factual accuracy you ought to get confirmation rather than assume it's a typo...after all isn't that what your concerned about in the first place. I'm not saying it isn't a typo just pointing out the continuing unkowns of Alis.....Alis...what the f... is Alis... :)

    Gordon
     
  9. Da_Rude_Baboon

    Da_Rude_Baboon
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    :rotfl:
     
  10. Franky74

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    Hello everyone.
    Time to add some salt in the topic since I bought a 5300 very recently (and I'm very happy with it).
    My understanding of Alis technology (at leats the one in my 5300) goes as follows: there ARE 1024x1024 pixels (non square). BUT they are not used all at the same time. Actually those pixels are wired with 1024x512 so that it takes half the number of wires. Each 1/60 (or 1/50 but as you will see the difference doesn't really matter), 1024x512 pixels are displayed at the same time (and this is VERY important). The next 1/60 (or 1/50) it is the other 1024x512 set that are displayed at the same time. Now we all know that with a 24 frames/second our eyes are tricked and think there is continuous motion. If you combine this with the maths I mentioned you can understand that our eyes will consider they see 30 (or 25) 1024x1024 pixels image every seconds. So in that sense we can say Alis is interlaced.
    However the BIG (if not huge) difference between our usual interlaced picture (those of TV sets or monitors) is that the 1024x512 frame is done at one time and not using a beam which would have to draw lines one by one! This give a much more stable image.
    Of course this is just what I have understood of the theory ... practically, which means at the electronic level, I have no clue how the incoming signal is treated. But what I know for sure is that human eyes will hardly see what happens faster than 24 times a second (not saying it won't, but it would hardly); so at 25 or even 30 ....

    Now you can shoot me :p.
     
  11. Cliff

    Cliff
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    No need for any shootings on this post! What you say looks pretty accurate.

    Gordon- like the man at Fujitsu said -if you have any questions which can't answered here I will gladly ask on your behalf.
     
  12. Enquirer

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  13. Franky74

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    I dunno if the links requirement was for me (but I will guess so). Actually I didn't post any link for a simple reason: it took me few weeks to decide what plasma screen I will buy; after several time consuming investigations I decided to go for the 5300 (also because I got an unbeattable price since the guy made a mistake on its site; does 1.607,38 GBP sound a good price ;-) ?). Anyway, the point is that my post was to tell about what I understood after reading pages and pages of web site concerning hitachi and alis and such. I read everything and its contrary, but at some point I had the feeling that Alis was what I tried to explain earlier. It is only my simple understanding (naive mybe) and I didn't intend to spoil anyone with better or more accurate explanations :) when doing no quotations. Sorry if I actually did.

    Frank.
     
  14. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    "However the BIG (if not huge) difference between our usual interlaced picture (those of TV sets or monitors) is that the 1024x512 frame is done at one time and not using a beam which would have to draw lines one by one! This give a much more stable image."

    I don't believe that is correct. Plasmas DO scan the frame, but not like CRTs. Each line is written, all pixels together, in a vertical sequence. Each pixel shares an address and a signal line with it's neighbours on the corresponding rows and columns. Otherwise you would have about a million wires instead of two thousand (for each colour). I believe with ALIS, odd and even rows (which do show a different image) are illuminated on alternate vertical scans. Which is rather like CRT interlaced, except that the pixels in each line are written simultaneously rather than sequencialy.
     
  15. Ymegod

    Ymegod
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    Cliff, Cliff, Cliff, what have you done now. I should warn you now that it is against Forum regulations to start introducing any sort of fact into debates re ; Alis. Quotes from somebody at Fujitsu, who I believe invented Alis panels, will cut no ice here you know. I can only imagine the tea lady must have answered your e-mail. Mind you she may have a greater perception of Alis than some of the people on here !
    Enquirer, what happened to the "No further discussion, only three esses, on this matter". You really should leave the childish stuff to me.
     
  16. Enquirer

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    That was on another thread
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1602541&postcount=62

    Ymegod I have read all 81 of your posts interesting reading

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1525341

    I suggest from the evidence that you are just a person who likes stirring up opposite views without presenting ANY evidence of YOUR own.
    You often on many threads post sarcastic posts with no detailed opinion of your own that could be debated about.
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1597671&postcount=10

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1594930&postcount=10

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1605111&postcount=15

    You use posts of others to force a confrontation.
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1602445&postcount=61

    Your comments are more than often NOT based on personal experience of products that you have physically used.
    When you first started posting about plasma’s you asked advice about products and when others opinion did not concur with your own
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1273330&postcount=1
    You took this as bias http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1430048&postcount=37
    You did not and do not respect peoples right to have a different opinion than yours.

    Rather than detailing a concise response why you feel differently (maybe because you find it hard to put into words or is it that some might find holes in your argument)
    You seem to me like the little kid hiding behind a big guy for protection. You unwittingly use others to make yourself seem far more important and knowledgeable than you really are.
    I am waiting for you to have something constructive to say of your own (I would be the first to listen and respect your view point)

    I have obviously came to this opinion based on the evidence above (see links). If I have judged you incorrectly I sincerely apologise and do not wish to get into the words wars you seem to enjoy rather than the Home cinema hobby that I enjoy.
     
  17. Warpaint

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    A point that seems to have been missed in this debate is that in an Alis display the odd line field and the even line field are derived from a progressive scan frame. ie. field 1 and field 2 are part of the same static image.
    In an interlaced PAL or NTSC display each field is taken from a different moment in time. ie. field 1 and field 2 are not part of the same static image.

    What we get in an Alis display is (broadly speaking) a progressive scan image with half the refresh rate of a progressive non Alis display.

    Does this make any sense to anybody? (Apart from Fujitsu)
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    War paint: In an interlaced display where the material was recorded progressively field 1 and field2 are both taken from the same moment in time. You are confusing interlaced display with interlaced recording.....

    Gordon
     
  19. Ymegod

    Ymegod
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    Well I have been found out at last ! Extensive research by Enquirer has unearthed five posts that I have sent in the last four days and one that brings up a "Sorry no matches" box. Perhaps the vital one !
    The penultimate post was a valid question which, I believe, solicited several replies and the last occurred, I suspect, because I had a pop at Mr. Hornydragon.
    As far as personal experience of products is concerned I will not embarass you by telling you that which I do for a living.
    Yes I am that little kid but I am not hiding behind the big guy for protection. I have no need of protection. I do not unwittingly use others I do it on purpose !!
    Everybody likes to feel important don`t they ? I would not claim to be knowledgeable, in fact far from it, but I have the knack of being able to discern bullsh*t from fact. Sorry there`s that F word again.
    There is absolutely no need to apologise. There will be no war of words, sticks and stones and all that. The bottom line is that I know sufficient to be able to tell when somebody has posted something that is blatantly untrue. When they do it time and time again I find it difficult to accept. They are also misleading the people who may be reading the thread.
    I usually resort to sarcasm because trying to convince some people on this Forum that they are not right is akin to beating yourself over the head with a baseball bat.
     
  20. pwood

    pwood
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    As far as personal experience of products is concerned I will not embarass you by telling you that which I do for a living.

    Come on spill the beans.
     
  21. Enquirer

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    (joke) Poll dancer?,poodle groomer? Anne summers test subject?(joke)semi pro guitar player in miami ? Constuction worker in washington DC? Model maker?(how many other Ymegods can i find on google)
    you can't post something like that without getting people curious.

    The first link which doesnt work is a list of all your posts.I think because as you post it changes you cant link to that link but i maybe wrong(yes i will admit to some times being wrong i am not ashamed of making mistakes)

    I'll leave it at that as the evidence ,"The FACTS" about you ,are there for all to see.
     
  22. efendi

    efendi
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    Gordon,

    sorry I don't fully understand.

    Let's imagine we have PAL progressive source, which means 50 fully lit images/frames per second in the cue, each taken in different moment of time . We know the Alis panel is switched to 50Hz then and in the same time it is able to display only one ("upper" or "lower") part of the image in time - these 512 lines in every 50th of second (to simplify things, let's forget scaling here). So, we basically have two choices here - it'll either take the upper part of frame 1 and in the next 50th the lower frame of the frame 2 followed by upper part of frame 3 and so on, OR it'll throw away every second frame at all and will display first, third etc. frame fully step by step , half by half (that's what NicholasB wrote here already). The second choice seems VERY improbable to me however as these parts of displayed frames (1, 3, 5...) would be much more different to each other, leading to far worse picture - especially on fast moving objects). I'm well aware it contradicts with what Fujitsu guy wrote (in every 1/20th of second you'll see one progressive image), as you'd never see the full progressive image on Alis IMHO. Now, the key lies in resolution of the panel, which as we know, is basically very high for it's dimensions, so, the upper part of frame 1 and the lower part of frame 2 are (almost) the same (watching from reasonable distance). The reason for scaling to 1024p then is only because simpler upscaling than to scale interlaced picture.

    Regarding e-Alis, wouldn't be nice to fasten things up somehow and make the both parts of one progressive frame lit in 1/50 step by step, the second frame in the second 1/50th and so on? It'd be then (almost) progressive panel (at least very fast switched interlaced electrodes sharing panel ) and everybody'd be happy :D

    I could be completely wrong, of course, and I'd welcome any other's opinion ;)

    Petr
     
  23. Warpaint

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    Sorry Gordon, I didn't consider DVD playback or film sourced material, but most viewing is normally from broadcast sources so does that mean that what I posted is what actually happens?

    I should have studied Joe Fernands earlier link before posting this

    http://edevice.fujitsu.com/fhp/pdp/fhp_pdp/e-pdp-bt202.html

    this is for a 768 line display rather than 1024 but the principles will be identical
     
  24. Ymegod

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    Would that be a Graham Poll dancer or did you mean "Pole dancer". As you have suggested in a previous post I am not that important and certainly not important enough to feature on Google.
    Poodle grooming, now there`s a thought. Anne Summers test subject.....if only. I have only just finished polishing my leather balaclava. Just the chains to sort out now.
    I do realise by posting that it would get people curious and that is exactly why I did it ! I thought it would be blindingly obvious in the context of your comment regarding personal experience of products and my reply but this is clearly not the case.
    Imagine, if you will, me going on to a thread about Panasonic, Pioneer, LG, Sony, any plasmas and spouting a load of inaccurate and unsubstantiated waffle about the various merits of each. You will then realise how I feel when the same thing happens EVERY time the subject of Alis panels rears its ugly head.
     
  25. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    so what? you work for Hitachi? Fujitsu? SONY? if so what were your first dozen posts all about?
     
  26. Ymegod

    Ymegod
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    My first seven posts were asking about the different colour backgrounds on a Sony plasma and LCD that I saw in a Sony Centre.
    My next six posts, on the DVD Recorder Forum, were asking advice about the Toshiba XS32.
    My next post was asking MAW for advice following the Sky announcement regarding high definition television. And so it goes on...........
    I am not the brightest so I do not understand the "So what ?" I do not work for any of the companies you have mentioned but the fact that they all sell Alis equipment was not completely lost on me.
    It is of course possible that I am in the very fortunate position of having more than one plasma and I am able to compare both Alis and non-Alis screens. Both ISF calibrated.
    So I am afraid I am going to have to stick by the last paragraph of my last two posts on this thread.
     
  27. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK: An interlaced PAL image can be derived from a signal captured progressively or one captured interlaced. Progressive capture would be by film or digital progressive camera or by computer generated graphics. These are usually at 24 or 25 FRAMES per second. When they are turned in to broadcast video they are interlaced to create two fields of half resolution images. So the ODD and EVEN frames are from the same moment in time.........................................................................................(there are LOTS of programming on TV that is progressive in nature...including most of the adverts!)

    Stuff recorded on a video camera interlaced only records half the lines each 50th of a second an meets your criteria of not having each field be from the same moment in time.

    Effendi: PAL progressive is 50Hz but there are not 50 ndividual images taken each 50th of a second. See my paragraph above....there are only 25 full images a second (just now)......if it was recorded interlaced then 50 half resolution images a second....when 720PHD recording comes then hopefully 50 full resolution frames a second.

    Gordon
     
  28. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Thans for clearing that up Ymegod so which plasmas do you own?
     
  29. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Well i for one am convinced that ALIS is the way to go!

    My Panasonic plasma is over two years old now, and in desperate need of it's gas topping up.
    I have been quoted £180 for gas. :eek: (but this does include labour)

    The place that quoted for the work "Manchester Universal Gas Supplies", has told me the ALIS panels only need half the gas, and only need filling half as often due to being an interlaced display.(so only £90 every four years instead of £180 every two etc)
    Something to do with only displaying half the lines at any one time etc.

    I will be on the look out for the new e.ALIS panels, as the "e" stands for eco friendly gas. It is less damaging to the ozone layer and uses less electricity.

    Any existing ALIS owners wanting more performance from their panels, can have the new fully calibrated "D65" gas for just £10 extra.

    Ps
    Pm if you need the number for "M.U.G.S" :smashin:
     
  30. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    It should be obvious to anyone visiting these forums that there are a few individuals posting here, who obviously know so much more about these panels than the people who actually make them. Even if they don't fully understand what the word "interlaced" means. I would prefer to call the Alis technology "multiplexed".

    P.S. Can we please lay off the character assasinations, and stick to some facts - preferably supported by some proof in the form of substantiated web links ?
     

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