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Advise for Toshiba 52"

Discussion in 'TVs' started by magnole01, Jul 9, 2005.

  1. magnole01

    magnole01
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    Im going to take the plunge and get the Tosh 52", I know you all go on about how much better the sammy 50" is but i have domoed both sets and although the sammy pq was a wisker better, (if i was being super fussy) i just felt the overall package of the Tosh was nicer. Please can all you Tosh owners give me some advise and tips on how i can make my viewing experience as enjoyable as yours.

    I would wait for the new models to come out later in the year but as i have a budget of less than 2 grand i think they will be slightly out of reach.

    I await your help with greatfull thanks.

    Magnole01
     
  2. Mark_a

    Mark_a
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    It's a great set, but in my opinion it doesn't suffer low-quality feeds very well. It has a peculiarity that if something's moving about on screen and the camera is moving too, such as a side to side pan, then high contrast elements in the picture can blur briefly. It's most noticeable on people's faces and necks. This effect disappears with a high quality feed such as 720p from a DVD player that can do it (a £160 Panasonic S97 from Richer Sounds, for example). Or, if you're mad like me, by adding a high quality deinterlace/scaler such as a Lumagen. This will then do 720p from all your sources, such as Sky or Freeview. Then the Tosh really shines. Having said all that, it produces bags of detail and clarity 99.9% of time anyway.

    Overall I'd give it a guarded thumbs up, and as a bit of TV design I prefer it greatly to the Samsung. Mind you, for the cost of the thing, plus the Lumagen, I might well have been better off going for the new Sagem 56", but that's another matter. You may find the motion blurring doesn't bother you as much as it began to irk me. Watching programmes such as Alias on Bravo, for example, was quite painful. Now with the Lumagen it's 100% again. Not that that's improved the programme, mind. :)

    Regards

    Mark
     
  3. magnole01

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    Mark_a, Can you tell me a bit more about the Lumagen, what is it, price etc. Sorry to be so uninformed but i am new to all this new technology so will need all the help i can get.
     
  4. Les

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    Hi

    I have had my 52" Toshiba for about 4 months now. I am generally very pleased with the set, and have only very rare picture artifacts worthy of mention.

    Watching Sky via an old Pace sky decoder box:

    Occasionally, I get 'halo' effects - these typically around a light source in a dark scene where shading bands can be seen around the light source.

    Occasional 'skin tone' oil painting effect - these are similar to above but relate to skin tones on close up's and show a 'banding' effect around the face/skin contours. These are typically very rare and brief.

    When watching DVD via Panasonic S97

    Usually a blemish free picture. Very occasional artifacts as per above.

    All of the above are mostly not noticed unless looked for. Very occasionally there will be a brief 'blatant' artifact seen. usually those are the oil painting effects on skin tones with close up shots.

    I, and others, have never seen the 'rainbow' effects or 'window blind' effects.


    I would advise, if you get one of these that you check out the HDMI with a source (such as a DVD player) right away. My set has a random/frequent picture drop out causing me to use my Panasonic S97 DVD via component (which gives an excellent picture generally)

    I would strongly advise all not to purchase from BuyYourAV as they appear to be trying to ignore my requests for repair/replacement on the above HDMI fault. I may have to go to credit card company to sort it out.
     
  5. Mark_a

    Mark_a
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  6. soni

    soni
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    Hi Magnole01,

    I don't wish to throw a spanner in the works - but i think you should be aware of the following.

    I have a Denon 2910 HDMI upscaling player which upscales to 720p/1080i and i originally had the Toshiba 46WM48p which is identical to the 52" only smaller. I certainly wouldn't rely on HDMI upscaling players to rid the Tosh of the motion blurring, as i saw this on all sources during the 3 months or so that i owned it. If you read the original review in What Video & Widescreen TV by John Archer - he even says that its evident on all sources.

    The one thing the upscaling player did do - was eradicate all the jaggies that were visible on my non-upscaling player.

    The TV is great with detail, colours, and even the rainbow effect - i NEVER ONCE saw a single rainbow on the Tosh, however i just could not live with the fact i had purchased an upscaling player for £500.00 and the TV was letting the whole show down with the motion blurring. I watched some really good DVD's whilst i had the Tosh - and it was very sharp and detailed indeed - however, when the camera panned it was a whole different story - its not a problem localised only to the Tosh's - its a general DLP problem - as i've seen it also on the Optoma RD50 which wasn't ANY better than the Tosh at all (with regard to motion blurring) and was EQUALLY as bad. However, i could not handle the fact of spending as much as i had on my AV gear to be let down by the main component - the TV. So, after checking out the RD50 - it only left the Sammy. The Sammy gets around the motion blur apparently by its clever motion smoothness circuitry, and although i am a lot happier with the Sammy than i ever was the Tosh - i HAVE seen rainbows on the Sammy and can force them - whereas with the Tosh i tried absolutely everything to see one and never did - i even did several minutes of head shaking!

    Just beware of the fact that the motion blurring will be on ALL sources, regardless of the input, cables, etc, etc. And obviously demo the films/scenes that show the blurring at its worst before buying. :thumbsup:
     
  7. Mark_a

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    Soni, did you ever try an external deinterlacer/scaler?

    It's certainly cured mine. All traces of motion blur eradicated, I'm eternally glad to say. Bloody expensive fix, though.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  8. magnole01

    magnole01
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    Thanks for all the advise so far, keep it coming.

    Don't think i can afford the Lumagen option at the moment, just hope this motion blur problem dosn't spoil my experience.

    I am a general tele watcher who normal dosn't really focus to much on picture quality so hopefully i will be alright. With a bit of luck if i have problems the hi-def broadcasts from sky (when they finally come) will solve these issues as i do believe a set is only as good as the feed it is supplied with.

    Hope im making the right decision.....
     
  9. soni

    soni
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    Mark,

    Never tried an external scaler so can't comment on that - however, the sets internal scaler didn't sought it and neither did the scaler in the Denon. If your external scaler has soughted it then congratulations, but if i was in the market for another Tosh (as apart from the blurring it was a fantastic set) then i would insist on seing it all set up via an external scaler so i could prove it soughts it prior to purchase.

    magnole01,

    Don't count on HD material soughting it cause it won't - John Archers review even stated that the blurring is evident on all sources including HD. As for 'normal viewing' it was normal viewing that drew the line for me - as i was watching the news one evening and the queen went by in her horse and cart - and as the camera panned and the cart went accross the screen - the whole carriage including its passengers were just one big blur, and that was the icing on the cake for me - i thought if i can't even watch the blinking news then whats the point! Not that i was really wanting to see the queens face mind you! :rolleyes:
     
  10. P&J

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    I've had the Tosh 52 for 5 months now. Excellent machine in mine (& the wife's) opinion. Hooked up with Sky+ (Pace) via good quality scart and Denon 2910 via HDMI with the 2910 set to output at 1080i. I chose 1080i beacuse the Tosh manual says that the Tosh is optimised on HDMI for 1080i.
    I do see some blurring (oil painting?) on fast panning from some Sky programmes, but not all the time and not all programmes. I have never seen any blurring effects at all when viewing DVDs via the 2910.
     
  11. Razor

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    Best way to rid the tosh of bluring is to play everything at half speed or less. :D

    Seriously though lets hope the next gen of Tosh displays dont have this problem. I think they are going to use the HD4 chip.
     
  12. splash39

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    Les said:

    "I would advise, if you get one of these that you check out the HDMI with a source (such as a DVD player) right away. My set has a random/frequent picture drop out causing me to use my Panasonic S97 DVD via component (which gives an excellent picture generally)"


    Well Les I seem to be having a problem with the HDMI input to the Tosh from a Samsung HD 850 also. It did play DVD's through HDMI 1080/720 with varying success but now it doesn't at all except for DVD-r which it plays through HDMI every time?? Mine was bought from Buy your Av also. They have sent a techy company to have a look who are now trying to contact Toshiba.

    Chris
     
  13. soni

    soni
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    Strange that - because I've also got the Denon 2910 and connected via HDMI. I tried all scaling outputs whilst i had the Tosh and the blurring didn't improve. This isn't meant to be sarcastic by the way. :)
     
  14. soni

    soni
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    I really don't think its a Toshiba problem - as i've got the Sammy SP50L7 (had the Tosh 46WM48p prior to the Sammy) and i still get this problem 'now and again'. :smashin:
     
  15. Les

    Les
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    I had a replacement Panasonic S97 as I had thought it was the faulty item, however, the second one was identical to the first with regard to the fault. I do not have any other component to try on the HDMI connection.

    With regard to BuyYourAV. All they have done to date after reporting the problem is to loan me a different HDMI cable. The fault was still present with it. Since then, they have ignored 5 emails.

    I had contacted Toshiba and all they said was that the set was not withing their specs and that I should contact my supplier.

    My next step will probably be my credit card company.
     
  16. Mark_a

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    Hmmm, I made a discovery last night. I'd been watching the TV via the Lumagen with it set in NTSC 60Hz mode. When I realised this I switched back to PAL 50Hz setting and back came the motion blurring on the low-bit-rate Sky channels. Switched back to NTSC settings again, and lo-and-behold the TV convulses for a moment, but when it settles down again the motion blurring's disappeared once more.

    Now this seems to me that the Tosh's 50Hz handling sucks somewhere along its line. The only way you'll normally get the cleaner 60Hz feed is with a PAL60 output from a VCR or DVD player, when playing an NTSC disc, or with a computer game that allows you to switch to 60Hz, as some do. 'Course I can do it all the time with the Lumagen, but that's not really the point.

    Bit crap of the Tosh, I think. So, the answer to the motion blurring seems to be, run it at PAL60, if you can.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  17. jono72

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    I concur with MarkA, I have recently been trying my Toshiba 52" with a DVDO iScan HD upscaler. While running all video through the upscaler at 720p doesn't resolve the motion blurring, running it at PAL 60Hz DOES completely eliminate the problem!

    I'm amazed, but it's clear that the Toshiba is optimised for a 60Hz signal, and when running Sky NZ, DVD etc through the scaler output at PAL60 the picture is truly breathtaking, and motion blur is a thing of the past!

    Thanks for the tip Mark!

    Jonathan
     
  18. Razor

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    The US version of the Tosh hasn't got reports of motion bluring. I would suspect the tosh has been setup primarly for 60Hz and then they tuned it for 50Hz and shipped to Europe. :confused:
     
  19. Hooch100

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    Ive got the tosh 46wm48 and bluring is a problem...how would I go about changing from 50hz to 60?
     
  20. Mark_a

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    You need some sort of device that will do it for you, such as a Lumagen. You can't do it with the TV alone, I'm afraid. 'Least not through the normal controls. Maybe a Tosh engineer might be able to do it, dunno.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  21. Hooch100

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    Umm....would it really be worth the outlay..is the difference really noticeable?
     
  22. Hooch100

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    Actually thinking about it ...isn't it great that you spend over a grand on a tv then you spend hours talking to other people trying to get a better picture..!! then you find out after youve spent hundreds of pounds on a Hdmi dvd player,decent quality cables that youhave to spend even more cash trying to get what yopu should have in the first place..A decent picture!
    Sorry ..crap day!
     
  23. the_pauley

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    If the difference was only a "whisker", then I would suggest the Samsung wasn't set up properly. I demoed both the Toshiba (46" and 52") and Samsung (46" and 50") sets with the same DVDs and set the picture settings myself in the stores and the Samsung pictures were noticeably superior to the Toshibas.

    Not only were the above mentioned artefacts present on the Toshibas, but the picture brightness / contrast was nowhere near as good as the Samsungs. Quite simply I found nothing to quibble about with with the Samsungs (apart from that pedestal stand on the 50") and quite a few quibbles with the Toshibas that I definitely couldn't live with.

    I bought the Samsung 46" model. Took it out of the box, switched it on, optomized the picture settings, and have been grinning from ear-to-ear ever since. No interlacers, scalers, or other digital enhancement gubbins required.

    As the previous poster said, when you spend over a grand you should expect a decent picture without the need for expensive add ons.
     
  24. Razor

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    Paulie :hiya:

    I agree, I to think the samsung has the beter picture out of the two sets.
     
  25. Hooch100

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    I might see if I can blag my Tosh back into the shop..I did look at the Samsung but choose the toshiba..I suppose I'm entitled to one mistake!!
     
  26. Elephant Man

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    Has anyone notice that when watching a PAL dvd, the picture movement/ motion is a lot smoother than watching a NTSC disc?
     
  27. soni

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    I've noticed the same with my Sammy SP50. I was advised (to get around the odd blip hear and there) to switch the output of the DVD player to NTSC whilst playing a PAL disc. Anyway, tried it and on every bit of panning it juddered. So, i would rather put up with the odd blip once or twice in a film for a split second at a time than have the panning juddering every blinking time. Anyway, haven't had any blips come to think of it for a couple of months now!! :)
     
  28. LV426

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    soni: It's highly likely that converting 25fps PAL to 30fps NTSC will cause juddering. Always best to avoid converting frame or line rates.

    Elephant Man: depending on the severity of the problem (which I can't obviously tell from your description) you may simply be noticing the 3:2 pulldown effect that's common to all film-to-NTSC transfers. How bad it is depends on your equipment, but basically it results from running a film at 24fps, transferring it to video at 24fps, but the equipment having to "create" additional frames (every 5th frame is a duplicate of the one before it) to get the 30fps required by the NTSC TV standard. This is true only of transfers from film. Pure NTSC video (i.e. shot with an NTSC video camera at 30fps) will not exhibit this. If you can therefore find any true NTSC video footage to compare with (perhaps a music concert, or some DVD extras) you may have an answer.
     
  29. Snap

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    I agree with LV's post.
    I also tried 24 fps movie on my PC through DVI-D on Sagem HD-D45
    set refresh rate of PC to 50 and 60 and found;
    on 50H there is slight jump every second or half of second, the rest is super smooth.
    on 60 HZ the judder is constant an appears as to be many times per second (like 5 times or so).
    NTSC and PAL video camera footage is perfect, no jums at all. same NTSC and PAL footage converted to MPEG2 and burned to CD then played on cheap DVD player with progressive scan out produce perfect juddder free picture.
    I think i start prefer 1280x720p over 1920x1080i as progressive 720 HDTV will be full 50 or 60Hz without deinterlacing needed.
     
  30. Ruby

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    Elephant Man,

    I've only tried one NTSC DVD on my Samung SP50L7HX so far and noticed the smoothness issue on panning shots straight away. I switched on the film mode option and it seemed to solve this problem as far as I could see.
     

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