Advice required on negotiating starting salary and agencies

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D0554

Guest
My first thread so bear with me!
Been reading lots of threads in the past which have offered some good advice, so what better place to start...

Im in a bit of a situation, I was offered a job this morning :thumbsup: , but they have offered me a package which is far below what I am currently on :thumbsdow I have since had a number of telephone conversations with the agency and I have bent the truth a little in terms of what I am currently on in an attempt to justify the little bit extra!

My question is will this work against me when I start (should all things go well) I mean will they look at my P45 and think hold on you said you were on this and this and your actually on this - you lied? I dont want to do anything that will jeopardise the job!

Also how do agencies work, are they trying to talk me down so that they stand to make more commission or are they genuinely fighting my corner, and getting me as much as possible? Any recruitments consultants out there that can help? :lease:
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
Don't give your new employers your P45, you're under no legal obligation to provide one. Simply fill out a different form, available from either the HR department or tax office.
 

DJT75

Distinguished Member
Agency will have a salary cap, if they can recruit you within that cap they're laughing, it they need to go back to the client to request it's increased it's hassle for them. Like any Sales, they want a fast close.

Always lie about your current salary or you'll never get a nice immediate pay rise. There's gotta be somerthing in it for you to move jobs in the first place.

If say you're on £30,000, tell them it's £33,000 & you're looking for £35,000 minimum. You may have to settle for £34,000 but you've probably got an extra £3000 out of them without trying.

P45 is down to you & the taxman, none of their business.
 

DJT75

Distinguished Member
ps. Ethically this may not be correct but seeing as 90% of the jobseekers are doing it you have to keep up with them or be the lowest paid person in that role...

Good luck
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
Personally I don't see anything ethically wrong with it! I think your previous salary and your previous job should have nothing to do with your new job. Your new job should be judged on what the employer thinks it is worth, combined with what they think you are worth as an assett to them....None of this should be based upon what you previously have earned....

If you are worried like bending the truth, do you remember that Paul bloke from the apprentice who was in a £17k pa job and went for a £100k pa one.....He was obviously out of his depth, but considering they offered you the job, your future employer doesn't think that about you.....

And as said, you don't have to show your P45 none of their business...
 
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D0554

Guest
Firstly thanks for all the advice guys...its not the first time I have heard the not to give in the P45 so thats a great help to know you guys are suggesting the same!

Had a couple of conversations with the agency today, asking the same questions over and over again. They keep asking me for a minimum but I keep replying I dont want to suggest a minimumn as I know they will meet me there! They had a figure from me when they initially told me about the role, they even put me forward with that figure, but the offer the company has come back with is about 7K below what I asked for!

I do really want the job, its only a 10 min drive from home compared to a 2 hour commute (one way!) for my current role, on top of that I currently pay 80 pound a week on rail travel - so if i were to take the job, I'd save ALOT of time and money!

They havent called back since the last conversation where someone else from the agency called to once again confirm what I am currently on and why I am not happy with the offer...tomorrow should therefore be interesting.

I've been waiting a few days for the decision and thought I would be getting what I wanted, its totally taken all the excitement away!

Hopefully find out early tomorrow, ill let you know how it all goes - thanks again for all the advice!:thumbsup:
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
Let's just hope it's the agency playing silly buggers...Just tell them that the figure you have given them and discussed the first time around is the minimum, and that there is no other minimum.....

I've had agencies do that to me several times and I told them where to stuff it. If you are certain they misportait the pay-structure, you should let their client know that in your own words as the reason why you are not agreeing to the job...Are you going to be paid via the agent or directly by the employer? £7k is a lot of money and that is just not on....
 
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D0554

Guest
Its a permanent role so once im in the agency should have no further dealings with it!

Funny thing is the agency tried to sell the offer to me by telling me that the company is real into developing its staff, you'll get loads fo training, blah blah! Heard that all before and none of it ever seems to materialise once you've signed on the dotted line!
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
How true! The 'Agent' will say anything whilst wearing their wide ties and their cheap suits :) Biased moi? to 'sell' you the job...He the majority only get paid when they place someone, so it is very serious when they 'mis-sell' a job. I heard today from a contractor who I used to work with, when the contract came around the daily amount was reduced by £125...He told them where to stuff it, he contacted the client who confirmed they never were able to pay £125 more, he wrote to the agency with the proof and stated he would take further action....Luckily for him the agency decided to pay him a months pay as compensation.....

Anyway good luck to you, and don't be afraid to contact your future employer!
 

unique

Moderator
not giving the P45 is a waste of time. you would need to fill in a P46 instead, which is sent to the inland revenue who will send your employer a P6 with your updated tax code and the same figures as on your P45

it's unlikely your employer will look at your P45 in that way and work out your previous salary. if it's a big company the P45 will go to HR and payroll, rather than the boss or person who hired you. you could get paid more for untaken holidays and bonuses etc when you leave which will bump it up a bit, or you could have deductions such as for training that you need to pay back if you leave within x period

what you should consider is if you lied in your interview or to the agency, as if they do a reference check with your previous employer they might find out you've been lying, and that could be a sackable offence

rather than tell agencies you were on X salary, tell them you want Z salary and won't work for less. same effect, but your being honest with them

with agencies, the more you are paid, the more they get paid as they work on a percentage basis, but like with any sales, if you try and sell your car or house for too high a price, you might put off potential customers, and the employer may choose to employ someone else, perhaps from another agency

agency staff will regularly tell potential employees the job they have is paying more than it actually is to get you interested and go to the interview, as people are less likely to back out of things when offered the job
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
unique said:
agency staff will regularly tell potential employees the job they have is paying more than it actually is to get you interested and go to the interview, as people are less likely to back out of things when offered the job
Isn't that bordering on bulleying? 7k is a big difference.....It is not unheard of that an employer comes back with a lower offer as they think you are not ready but would like to employ you anyway, but no such explanation seem to have been given here...
 

unique

Moderator
dejongj said:
Isn't that bordering on bulleying? 7k is a big difference.....It is not unheard of that an employer comes back with a lower offer as they think you are not ready but would like to employ you anyway, but no such explanation seem to have been given here...
it's not bullying as they are an agency and offering you work, which you don't have to take (unlike a boss bullying and your options are usually limited to doing what your told or leaving). you can go to another agency or take or decline the job. it's an arguably unfair practice, but far from uncommon, i've had it happen to me (and others tell me it happened to them), and agency say i was going to get between x and y, and i've told them the minum i would take is y, and they say no problem, i then have a telephone interview with the employer and bring up the money and they tell me it's x (the lower figure), and i say the agency mentioned y (the higher figure) and i told them i wasn't interested in x - all done in a polite way. i still end up being offered the job which i declined as it was at the lower rate. the job was a bit further away that i wanted, and i made it clear to the agency i only wanted a job in town, after stretching myself to a job out of town i didn't want to do that again (as i don't drive) unless the money was reasonably higher than what i was looking for in order to compensate for additional travel costs and time. i knew that it was reasonably easy to get a job in town, or most anywhere, at the lower rate so held out, and i ended up with a job in the perfect location in town, and at the higher rate, and within a week or two. if the agency think you are good, they will try and get you a job quickly, rather than lose you to another agency who get you a job first. they know they will only loose a client (employee) if they don't get them a job at the rate they want etc, as even if you fall out/hate an agency, if they offer a decent job at a decent rate, you wouldn't really turn it down
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
Gosh, I am amazed...From your post it sounds like you are condoning this kind of practise....How British ;) Sure you've got a choice as a job seeker and you don't have to go for it, but just think of the time wasted, like what has happened to you...Some people can barely afford the money to get to the interview, etc....As an employer and client I know that I will make certain that company (or individual in the company) has little future for further business....

Ah well lets you agree to disagree on this subject...
 

unique

Moderator
dejongj said:
Gosh, I am amazed...From your post it sounds like you are condoning this kind of practise....How British ;) Sure you've got a choice as a job seeker and you don't have to go for it, but just think of the time wasted, like what has happened to you...Some people can barely afford the money to get to the interview, etc....As an employer and client I know that I will make certain that company (or individual in the company) has little future for further business....

Ah well lets you agree to disagree on this subject...
oh, i'm not condoning it at all, i'm just trying to explain things from both points of view. i've interviewed perhaps 1000 potential employees in the past and employed perhaps 600, and at one point was interviewed by a few recruitment agencies regarding working as a recruiter, so i was taught a few things there. with my skills base i was also fortunate to have a number of recruiters look for jobs for me in different departments/areas as recruiters tend to specialise in specific fields, so i found that each person would deal with things in a different way, and that the recruiters are basically sales people, selling staff to employers, and don't necesarily know much about the posts they are filling, and it was explained that didn't matter much (altho it might in specialised agencies).

like yourself, i won't use the services of certain agencies again after trying to pull certain tricks, and thats not only for when i'm looking for work for myself, but when i'm looking for staff for whoever i'm working for, and i get calls from a number of agencies on a regular basis asking if i need staff, if i know people who want a specific job, or if i'm looking for a change myself. actually one agency in particular tried to pull the trick on me, but i said no and was honest in my replies and they got me a better job, with the pay and everything i was looking for, so it shows that if you do make it clear what you want then you can get it. you just need to be careful about lying, as it's easy to get caught out, and you can not only lose a job over it, but you might find it hard to find another if people know you lied to get a post. the OP just wants more money, but rather than just say that, a bad lie has been contrived instead, which could lead to problems in the future (but hopefully not). as the company hasn't got back to him yet, it's probably a sign they aren't interested now, so perhaps the next time a job comes up he can be a bit more honest in specifying his requirements and reasons for them, like hey i want more money because i think i'm worth it, and i can show my employer i am. agencies can buy an answer like that
 
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D0554

Guest
Update for today...

Didnt hear form the agency, so I decided to call them at lunchtime...they basically said that they have been in touch with the employer about my demands and that they (the employers) are in the process of reviewing it and will be in touch with either a yes, this is the offer or a no. She said that this can be a lengthy process, I suppose with getting all the paperwork and authorisation, sign offs, etc...

So still hanging on in there...:rolleyes:

Again thanks for the advice to date!!! :thumbsup:
 

ahin4114

Novice Member
Good luck, you may well find it's not your salary that's pushing the employer to reconsider, but the agencies fees. Some agencies operate a bracketed fees system whereby the percentage of commision varies depending on the salary on offer. Perhaps the increase in salary has increased the commission to a point where it's more difficult to justify the expense. You can bet your a**e the agency won't be renegotiating their rate unless they have to.
 

unique

Moderator
ahin4114 said:
Good luck, you may well find it's not your salary that's pushing the employer to reconsider, but the agencies fees. Some agencies operate a bracketed fees system whereby the percentage of commision varies depending on the salary on offer. Perhaps the increase in salary has increased the commission to a point where it's more difficult to justify the expense. You can bet your a**e the agency won't be renegotiating their rate unless they have to.
actually when i was interviewed for an agency recruiter, they told me in tricky situations they take what they can from an employer. if the fee is £5k and they say they are only going to give you £2k as they aren't happy about it, you take the £2k as you could end up losing the entire fee, and then lose a client. the employee could then get a job elsewhere from another agency. it just depends on how each agency operates however. i'm sure if the increased fee was going to push them into paying say 20% on £30k instead of 15% of £29k for example, they would be willing to take the 15% of £30k as it's still more fees to the agency.

whilst the agency may be telling you one thing, the real reason could be something else, and they are giving you the "kind" answer to keep your morale up. thats something else they will do, tell you that you are too qualified for the job, rather than say they thought you were crap. if they say you are too crap for the job, then you must be over qualified :D
 

Mr_Wistles

Distinguished Member
I would personally tell them that you have been offered another job and you need to know what is going on as the one they have is the one you really want but you cannot afford to wait.

This will also make the employer think that you are in demand, get the agency to pull their finger out and get you a response quicker.
 
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D0554

Guest
I dont really fancy being in this situation again once they come back with another offer, as in I knock them back again. Surely that will begin to annoy both the agency (who want to close the deal) and the employer! Like I said before this is ideal for me, but it is just the wage that is a little disappointing! The only downside at the moment is the wage...should I knock them back again if its still poor? I really do not want to lose out on this...

I suppose in the long term i stand to gain, from the experience, less travelling, less money on travel and getting to spend more time with my family...just would have been nice to know i have got a big pay rise out of it and everything else I was after! We shall see what happens - fingers crossed!!!
 
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D0554

Guest
*** BREAKING NEWS ***

Just received an email for some jobs and guess what I found the one that I am being offered...AND the salary is higher than what I have been offered! Even the lower band is higher, the higher band is 5k more than what I put myself forward for!!!

This leads me to believe that it is the agency that are trying to sell me the lower wage for some reason or another!

Now how does it work, does an employer approach an agency and say here is XXk, get me an employee, you can keep the change from the figure - as this is the only way I can see that they are really going to benefit with me going in at a lower wage! Can anyone shed any light on this? May sound stupid but i have never up until now got a job through an agency, prefer to go direct!

I know others have suggested ways in which agencies do work, but would the above be another way?

I applied to the job anyway, it actually went to another employee at the agency...I am hoping she eventually passes it onto the person I have been delaing with so they know i know the salary range! If not I shall mention it in conversation tmw!!!
 

shahedz

Distinguished Member
agencies usually get a % of the overall salary so in most cases will try and get the most they can for the applicant, some agencies won;t even bother with work for applicants who earn less than £30 k a year,

Agencies will always advertise high rates to attract applicants but then will negogiate down.

What a lot of people don't understand is that sometimes agencies will lower theyre comission to secure the deal as they dont want to lose out.

At the end of the day the end decision is with the employer and if you are applying for a post which theyre are plenty of applicants or there isn't a shortage of skills the employer will have the end decision and will hold out for the cheapest applicant.
 

unique

Moderator
D0554 said:
*** BREAKING NEWS ***

Just received an email for some jobs and guess what I found the one that I am being offered...AND the salary is higher than what I have been offered! Even the lower band is higher, the higher band is 5k more than what I put myself forward for!!!

This leads me to believe that it is the agency that are trying to sell me the lower wage for some reason or another!

Now how does it work, does an employer approach an agency and say here is XXk, get me an employee, you can keep the change from the figure - as this is the only way I can see that they are really going to benefit with me going in at a lower wage! Can anyone shed any light on this? May sound stupid but i have never up until now got a job through an agency, prefer to go direct!

I know others have suggested ways in which agencies do work, but would the above be another way?

I applied to the job anyway, it actually went to another employee at the agency...I am hoping she eventually passes it onto the person I have been delaing with so they know i know the salary range! If not I shall mention it in conversation tmw!!!
companies usually approach agencies and say they have X post, the agencies ask a few questions including salary, and tell the company the charges (ie. percentages). the agencies then advertise the job at the rate the company specified, and put forward the interested parties, or those they have on file. they arent given a sum and keep the change if they can get someone cheaper

what could have happened was they set the rate of pay as Z, got a number of applications, werent satisfied with what they saw, and were persuaded one way or another to readvertise the position at a higher rate in order to try and attract a more suitable person for the post, and that could explain the delay in getting back to you. for the lower sum they may be willing to take you on, but for the higher figure you asked for they think they can do better, and are advertising to see if thats true. if they cant find someone more suitable at the higher rate they may get back to you and work out a financial deal

so you may think you are worth £30k, and they have offered you £25k, you won't accept lower than £30k, but they think they can get someone better if they offer £30k. thats the small problem about asking for more money than the job is advertised for in the first place. i think if they thought you were the man for the job they would have got back to you sooner
 
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D0554

Guest
:confused: well i havent managed to talk myself out of the job just yet! Will call them at lunchtime and get another progress report I think...as mentioned earlier I did clearly state that I didnt wanna be asking for too much! I'm hoping despite what everyone is thinking that they are simply going through all the paperwork to justify the extra money!:rolleyes:

Heh and give me some credit I got the job didnt I!:thumbsup:
 

Seth Gecko

retired member
The current job I have was via an agency. They wanted 20% of my annual salary for their finders fee. After negotiation with my employer, they settled for 10%.

My employer was very open with me about this and said, would I mind "agreeing" to a lower salary for the purposes of the agency and being given the salary I wanted anyway, just so they paid less to the agency.

Of course, it all depends on how much you're being offered, but 20% of my salary is a rather tidy sum.
 
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D0554

Guest
If this drags on would it be a good idea to contact the employer myself? Or does the employer and agency have an agreement regarding this?
 

unique

Moderator
D0554 said:
If this drags on would it be a good idea to contact the employer myself? Or does the employer and agency have an agreement regarding this?
not a good idea. the agency won't be happy with you or the employer if you negotiate in this way, and the employer might not like being contacted direct. the reason employers go to agencies is to save them hassle and inconvenience, as well as finding the right person for the post. it's probably in the terms and conditions you signed to agree to with the agency, and likewise those the employer has signed. you know the small print you never read cuz you just want to get a job and would sell your granny for the right salary?

the trick is to be patient. the agency may get annoyed if you keep calling about the job every day. if you are waiting on news of a post, keep in touch once a week at least, but every day or two can be a bit annoying as the agency will get in touch with people as soon as the job is confirmed so they snag the employee and bag the fee before you get a job elsewhere. this would also annoy the employer as they would need to start looking again
 
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D0554

Guest
I shan't be doing that then!

Just been speaking to my sis who works for an agency but not as a consultant, she basically said hang on in there, but query why they put you forward for what you asked and then came in with an offer that was far lower!

Was planning on calling them today but I think ill hold tight until I hear back from them!

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice on this thread, its been a great help! :thumbsup: Im sure others have been in a similar situation!
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
I remember waiting for 2 weeks to get an answer from the agency to see if i had actually got my current job, before any of the salary hassles, etc
 
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D0554

Guest
2 weeks!!!:eek:

Well I had two interviews, a technical and then the standard HR, they would have been done much sooner, but I had other things happening at the time.

The last of the two interviews was last Thursday, was offered the job on Tuesday!

Still waiting to tell my current work lot until I have officially signed and accepted! It doesnt help that somene else has also recently left the team! Dont think that will go down too well!!!:rolleyes:
 
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D0554

Guest
Despite being told not to call the agency I went ahead and done it anyway, reason being I had a few questions which I needed answering BEFORE the offer came in!

The consultant was great, the same one I have been talking to, the job spec I found was for the same job but working for another company on the same project! Its a long story!

Anyway she was very understanding and said that I will find out for sure tomorrow what their new offer is!

Roll on tmw I say!:)
 

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