Advice for in ceiling surround speakers

Milenario72

Standard Member
Hello all

Wanted to ask for your opinion on something. I have currently a 5.1.2 system with a Marantz 1608 AVR, Dali Fazon SAT as surround, front and center speakers, a Minx X301 Sub and a couple of Dali E60 as Atmos speakers.

The issue I have is that right now my surround speakers are in the rear wall at approx 1.70m height, facing the MLP but more than 2,5 m away from the center of the coach. Unfortunately I can not have them to both sides of the MLP and slightly behind as ideally should be, don't want to consider stands. Also one of them is partially hidden by big plant that is hard to reallocate and finally my coach has high backs and my ears are not directly reached by the surround speakers. Therefore I need to really bump the surround speakers and even with that I feel the sound is not right, feels a bit disconnected. This is why I am considering removing them from their current placement and use in ceilings instead (also the aesthetics of the surrounds are not very wat-friendly to say the least)

Unfortunately moving the coach is not an option because of I have some furniture in the back wall

I know experience will not be the same compared to in wall or standing speakers but thinking now about in ceiling but maybe would be an improvement nevertheless. in this case where would you place them relative to the MLP? Also which speakers would you recommend? another pair of E60 would be the natural choice I guess but any other recommendations?

I also read that in ceiling surrounds with atmos speakers ruins a bit the effect of the latter but I am not inclined to remove them. I guess is better to have something not optimal that not having anything at all?

Would love to hear your thoughts, thanks in advance.

Attached you can see an scheme of my set up including the new in ceilings, existing surrounds are not shown. On the right there is an open space and there is lots of glass around the area.

1634590098504.png
 
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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Wow, you've got glass everywhere. Do you have any other rooms you could use instead?

With all that glass, I assume you have something nice to look at? Meaning your couch is facing away from the views.

If that's where it has to be, I don't really have a solution. A 5.1 setup, with the surrounds in the ceiling may just have to do. You could compare with and without the Atmos speakers.
 

Milenario72

Standard Member
Thanks for your answer Trigaaar unfortunately I can not use other rooms this is my living room. Is not that I am surrounded by a garden or anything. On the left I have big sliding glass doors that give access to a terrace. then the other two glass elements are glass walls separating living room and kitchen and also from stairs to other floors of the house

so if in ceilings where would you place them? and also, Dali E60 with tweeters facing MLP or any other? I have the atmos with tweeters facing the MLP right now

Thanks
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Thanks for your answer Trigaaar unfortunately I can not use other rooms this is my living room. Is not that I am surrounded by a garden or anything. On the left I have big sliding glass doors that give access to a terrace. then the other two glass elements are glass walls separating living room and kitchen and also from stairs to other floors of the house
If the glass walls between the living room and kitchen have to stay, then you just have to make the most of a difficult room. The glass will cause acoustic issues, as well as preventing you placing speakers where you want.


so if in ceilings where would you place them?
Somewhere near where you've marked I'd think.

and also, Dali E60 with tweeters facing MLP or any other? I have the atmos with tweeters facing the MLP right now

I've not heard the speakers, but aiming at the MLP is good, and if the woofers aren't aimed at the MLP, you want good off axis response. I'd try to avoid them aiming straight down at a hard floor, which will just add more reflections to a room which already has issues.

Adding some thick absorption to the walls should help. Ideally disguised as nice artwork or something. And if you can have anything on the ceiling, that would also be good.
 

Yorkshire AV

Active Member
AVForums Sponsor
What about some on-wall rear speakers?

The DALI Oberon on-wall speakers: DALI OBERON ON-WALL Speakers

Or if you can install in the wall/ceiling joint with a down firing speaker such as the Alteco-C1: DALI Alteco C-1 White Height Speakers (Pair)

Would either of these be a consideration for you?

The usual in-ceiling surround speaker is the C380-FX which I've installed on a number of occasions successfully into the type of system such as yours: Monitor Audio C380-FX Rear Effects Ceiling Speaker
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
What about some on-wall rear speakers?
What would you do about the side surrounds? Rears on the back wall with sides on the ceiling would give odd results. So rear/side surrounds, as per old 5.1 may be better, with them somewhere to the side/behind and above the listeners could be best?
 

Yorkshire AV

Active Member
AVForums Sponsor
I dont think the OP has side surrounds and looking at his setup, I don't think it'd work due to the glass on the left side / open area to the right.

Thus why I think the DALI Alteco behind and above the MLP firing down would be the best.

The E60 single tweeter wont have the dispersion to give you a "surround" effect in ceiling.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
I dont think the OP has side surrounds and looking at his setup
Indeed, he has 5.1.2. When you said on-wall rear speakers, I thought you meant making it a 7.1.2 or similar. So with a 5.1.2 his surrounds act as the sides and rears. Ideally they'd be just behind the listeners, and to the side. That's not an option, so the choice is ceiling or rear wall. Due to the backs of his seats being in the way, they'd need to be quite high on the rear wall to be effective, and my feeling is that they'd work better on the ceiling. I'm not stating that is definitely the case, and if you think they'd work better on the rear wall, that's cool.


Thus why I think the DALI Alteco behind and above the MLP firing down would be the best.
Agreed on behind and above. But firing at the MLP, not down at the floor (that's probably what you had in mind). Although I think the rear wall is a bit far back (for this purpose), maybe it allows a better aimed speaker.


The E60 single tweeter wont have the dispersion to give you a "surround" effect in ceiling.
Agreed. Ideally the whole speaker should be aimed, not just the tweeter.
 

Milenario72

Standard Member
I dont think the OP has side surrounds and looking at his setup, I don't think it'd work due to the glass on the left side / open area to the right.

Thus why I think the DALI Alteco behind and above the MLP firing down would be the best.

The E60 single tweeter wont have the dispersion to give you a "surround" effect in ceiling.

Thanks Yorkshire, yes I don't plan to have a 7.1.2 but keep my 5.1.2 replacing my existing in wall surrounds by in ceiling.

Indeed, he has 5.1.2. When you said on-wall rear speakers, I thought you meant making it a 7.1.2 or similar. So with a 5.1.2 his surrounds act as the sides and rears. Ideally they'd be just behind the listeners, and to the side. That's not an option, so the choice is ceiling or rear wall. Due to the backs of his seats being in the way, they'd need to be quite high on the rear wall to be effective, and my feeling is that they'd work better on the ceiling. I'm not stating that is definitely the case, and if you think they'd work better on the rear wall, that's cool.



Agreed on behind and above. But firing at the MLP, not down at the floor (that's probably what you had in mind). Although I think the rear wall is a bit far back (for this purpose), maybe it allows a better aimed speaker.



Agreed. Ideally the whole speaker should be aimed, not just the tweeter.

Thanks Triggaaar, Seems that the way to go is for aim-able in ceilings, even for both surrounds and Atmos if I am up to the cost. Would you guys recommend any specific models? I see that best options are speakers with both tweeter and woofers pointing at the MLP. I read good things about Goldenear Invisa series, but may be hard to find in Spain which is where I live, and they are a bit above my budget. Any other recommendations? thanks
 
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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Thanks Yorkshire, yes I don't plan to have a 7.1.2 but keep my 5.1.2 replacing my existing in wall surrounds by in ceiling.



Thanks Triggaaar, Seems that the way to go is for aim-able in ceilings, even for both surrounds and Atmos if I am up to the cost. Would you guys recommend any specific models? I see that best options are speakers with both tweeter and woofers pointing at the MLP. I read good things about Goldenear Invisa series, but may be hard to find in Spain which is where I live, and they are a bit above my budget. Any other recommendations? thanks

I've actually never heard a fully aim-able in ceiling speaker, so I can't recommend a specific model. But I think it's worth it if you can get them, particularly in a room where there's not much absorption, because so much of what you hear will be reflected sound.

I think Yorkshire AV understood that you want 5.1, but suggested you had the surrounds at the back of the room, which would allow them to be aimed better. That would be an alternative, allowing you to use standard speakers.

The exact positioning of the surrounds might be down to how many of you are on the couch, and how far back the speakers can be and still clear the back of your seats. It would be good if they're well distinguished from your Atmos speakers. Assuming the Atmos speakers are then just above your knees, they won't need to be aim-able.
 

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