Adjust sub level after auto eq question ?

gscholefield

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Hi all,

My question is can you adjust the level of the sub after auto eq setup ?

First I manually set all speakers to 75db (all read 0 on the level adjustment on the amp) then I ran auto eq, this raised all of the speakers to 80db and lowered the sub level to 70db.
So what I want to know is should I;
A, Leave it as it is.
B, Adjust all of the speakers back to 75db (0 on the amp) after the auto eq is complete.
or
C, Leave the sub level at 0 on the amp then increase gain level on the sub to match the rest of the speakers at 80db again after auto eq is complete.

My amp is an Arcam AVR600 and my sub is a BK xls-200 mkII

Any thoughts on what would be the best way to approach this ??

Many thanks,

Gary
 
I only use my reciever (pioneer) Mcacc to set the distance of the speakers. For setting the speakers volume i use an spl meter to 75db as you have done and leave it at that. Id normally adjust the gain on the sub instead of the reciever. But if i feel a movie needs touch more bass il up it a few notches in the reciever then lower it when finished
 
It all depends on how much bass you like, just turn it up so you have enough oomph but not too much so you have got bass everytime someone speaks.

Marty
 
Ok guys so it would seem that it doesn't cause any problem adjusting the sub level after running auto eq and I should reset all the speakers (including the sub) back to 75db with the spl meter regardless of what the auto eq sets them to.

Thanks for the responses,

Gary
 
I don't know about Arcam, but I do know that other amps with room EQ (such as Audyssey XT32) don't engage the room EQ when you manually run the test tones afterwards. What this means is that if you reset everything to match your SPL meter the speaker levels with room EQ applied may not match, so you could have defeated the point of the amp's set up matching everything for you.

The only way to confirm this would be a test disc that you could play with the room EQ switched on, but I'm not sure if there is one for speaker levels?

However, there isn't any reason why you can't adjust the sub level afterwards to taste. Many owners with room EQ (myself included) seem to do this and by using an SPL meter to adjust it in precise steps (or just changing the sub level in the amp's controls) means at least you are changing it a known amount, such as 3dB or whatever.

Seeing your signature, do you also run the sub through an Antimode as well as the Arcam EQ? This may further reduce the apparent bass level (and Antimode's instructions say to increase the level by 3-10dB after running it IIRC).
 
I don't know about Arcam, but I do know that other amps with room EQ (such as Audyssey XT32) don't engage the room EQ when you manually run the test tones afterwards. What this means is that if you reset everything to match your SPL meter the speaker levels with room EQ applied may not match, so you could have defeated the point of the amp's set up matching everything for you.

The only way to confirm this would be a test disc that you could play with the room EQ switched on, but I'm not sure if there is one for speaker levels?

However, there isn't any reason why you can't adjust the sub level afterwards to taste. Many owners with room EQ (myself included) seem to do this and by using an SPL meter to adjust it in precise steps (or just changing the sub level in the amp's controls) means at least you are changing it a known amount, such as 3dB or whatever.

Seeing your signature, do you also run the sub through an Antimode as well as the Arcam EQ? This may further reduce the apparent bass level (and Antimode's instructions say to increase the level by 3-10dB after running it IIRC).
After I installed the antimode I was able to increase the sub level from 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock but there is still a big difference in levels after running the Arcam eq.
So would option C be the best bet, leave the speaker levels as they are at 80db and increase the sub level to match ??

Many thanks,

Gary
 
So you ran the Antimode, then Arcam on top? I understand that the Arcam room EQ isn't as good as say XT32 or ARC so maybe it'll help anyway, but it does complicate things.

However I wouldn't simply turn up the sub by 10dB. As I said when running the test tones the Arcam won't be correcting the sub EQ so you may be taking a false reading and 10dB is a very significant increase, especially for a little XLS200 which may not have much headroom to start with.

I would turn it up a few dB if it sounds better to you as per Marty1's comments you shouldn't have bass every time someone speaks. If you tend to listen anywhere near reference level, then I'd be wary of increasing it at all myself (but then I've blown drivers on my Monolith before now, so I'm a little more careful these days :) ).
 
I don't know about Arcam, but I do know that other amps with room EQ (such as Audyssey XT32) don't engage the room EQ when you manually run the test tones afterwards. What this means is that if you reset everything to match your SPL meter the speaker levels with room EQ applied may not match, so you could have defeated the point of the amp's set up matching everything for you.
Are you sure about that? The noise the amp plays when setting levels is just a broadband (pink?) noise over a given frequency range so the level read by a meter can be skewed by an uneven frequency response hence I would have thought this is more likely to be mismatched if you turn off eq. This effect is probably only really an issue below 2-300Hz mind you so primarily affects the sub (which is the one channel that people tend to adjust post setup anyway).
 
Are you sure about that? The noise the amp plays when setting levels is just a broadband (pink?) noise over a given frequency range so the level read by a meter can be skewed by an uneven frequency response hence I would have thought this is more likely to be mismatched if you turn off eq. This effect is probably only really an issue below 2-300Hz mind you so primarily affects the sub (which is the one channel that people tend to adjust post setup anyway).

I think we're saying the same thing:

Running the (manual) test tone will turn off the room EQ so you won't get the true reading (and as you say it might reduce a big peak which could mean a high reading without EQ), but perhaps it also might read low, you may be comparing the differences between the room EQ mic and the SPL meter (which aren't always that good at the low end anyway IIUIC).

However, if you don't trust the response of the room EQ mic, then I'd argue that you shouldn't run room EQ to begin with.

I don't see any problem with adjusting the sub level afterwards to taste, but trying to be too scientific comparing one meter with another with/without room EQ engaged could be a bit of a crap shoot.
 
Yes I see what you mean now. I think I was replying a bit early in the morning :)

I think that is a key point really, if you think the levels across each channel are wrong after eq then why should the results of the eq be any good either? Setting levels is the easy bit in eq'ing after all.
 
Yes I see what you mean now. I think I was replying a bit early in the morning :)

I think that is a key point really, if you think the levels across each channel are wrong after eq then why should the results of the eq be any good either? Setting levels is the easy bit in eq'ing after all.
I thought 10db was quite a big difference between sub and speakers after eq and didn't know whether to correct the difference or not ??

Gary
 
I thought 10db was quite a big difference between sub and speakers after eq and didn't know whether to correct the difference or not ??

Gary
You are sending a signal to a powered subwoofer so the signal level sent to the div depends on how you have the gain set on the sub. Generally speaking it really doesn't matter what the levels are as long as you are not maxing out the trims.
 
I wouldn't have thought adjusting the levels of each speaker individually would automatically switch the eq off? Certainly not with the audyssey or mcaac I've used in the past. Quite often after doing the initial auto eq I will go back and make minor adjustments like distance or levels to improve the balance. Sometimes the rears are too loud and sometimes the measurements of the subwoofer are not quite right. As far as I am aware the eq filters that have been applied still remain regardless of adjusting the levels.

Marty
 
I wouldn't have thought adjusting the levels of each speaker individually would automatically switch the eq off? Certainly not with the audyssey or mcaac I've used in the past. Quite often after doing the initial auto eq I will go back and make minor adjustments like distance or levels to improve the balance. Sometimes the rears are too loud and sometimes the measurements of the subwoofer are not quite right. As far as I am aware the eq filters that have been applied still remain regardless of adjusting the levels.

Marty
That the internally generated test tones are typically played with no eq applied is what is described above not that changing levels switches off eq. Therefore if you do want to set levels after eq, you should play tones via some external source (eg a test disc or rew)
 
As I understood it the test tones generated form the receiver is at the levels set on the auto eq, so if you play each tone holding an spl meter it will show you what db level you are hearing at your listening position, it shows you on the receiver what level each channel is at at whilst the pink noise is playing and you can just adjust up or down to get matching levels. Sorry if I am misunderstanding this :rolleyes:

Marty
 
Marty; when you play the test tones there won't be any EQ applied which might alter the measurement (even if you could somehow use the amp's mic let alone a different SPL meter). The room eq may well alter the level of any speaker depending on whether it might reduce a peak or perhaps boost a frequency. If you listen with room EQ engaged then it doesn't make sense to readjust the speaker levels with an SPL meter using un EQ'd test tones.

Ideally you'd have a test disc which you could play back with the EQ engaged. There are some tones on the DVE disc so you could try comparing EQ on and off with an SPL meter to see if it really makes much difference. I'm not sure whether the sub test tone is meant to be the same SPL as the speakers on this disc though, so it may not help the OP in this case.
 
But isn't the pink noise of the test tones just the over volume of the speaker? Same as the master volume but for each individual speaker meaning that eq would not really matter, its just a case of getting equal db levels from all speakers at the listening position.

Marty
 
But isn't the pink noise of the test tones just the over volume of the speaker? Same as the master volume but for each individual speaker meaning that eq would not really matter, its just a case of getting equal db levels from all speakers at the listening position.

Marty
You are missing the point that it is a single measurement of a broadband noise. If you have an uneven response then you can measure a different level (from that single measurement) than if you had an even response.
 
Right I've just finished some testing :D

Using DVE HD Basics,

EQ ON; speakers range between 73-76db sub level 71db

EQ OFF; speakers range between 69-72db sub level 68db

Using the Arcam built in test tones,

EQ ON; speakers range between 80-83db sub level 72db

EQ OFF; speakers range between 80-83db sub level 72db

The built in Arcam test tones aren't affected by the eq in any way !!

All comments welcome :)

Gary
 
Thanks for going to the trouble to confirm this, especially with the DVE disc since I can't find mine (and we a visitor anyway). If I dig out my copy of DVE later I'll compare the readings using Audyssey Movie/Music/off by way of comparison.

As previously said, if you want to increase the sub level by a few dB then it shouldn't effect your room EQ, just don't over do it especially if you listen close to reference (though if you do then an XLS200 probably isn't the right sub for you anyway, so I'm guessing not).
 
So it looks like there wasn't a 10db difference after all !! adjusting the sub by a couple of db as people have suggested would bring the sub level in line with the rest of the speakers, if required.

Thanks to everyone for great input and comments,

Gary
 
Using the Arcam built in test tones,

EQ ON; speakers range between 80-83db sub level 72db

EQ OFF; speakers range between 80-83db sub level 72db

The built in Arcam test tones aren't affected by the eq in any way !!

That's exactly what I thought, Thank You for confirming this :)

Marty
 
It's one big learning curve this trying to find AV heaven :)

Gary
 
This was an interesting read, always wondered at what stage the levels are set by the EQ. If before it's Eq'd then there is surely scope for it being out and in fact is quite likely given the Fr of some rooms/speakers. Makes sense for the levels to be set after eq, but that might not be the case then? Will grab my DVE disc and see how far out mine are.
 
I think the levels and distances are set first, certainly with mcaac as you hear the pink noise tones first, it's then followed by the bass pops which should be where it's figuring out the peaks and dips and where to apply the filters.

This is just guess work as proven by the op the only way to be sure is to test it for yourself ;)

Marty
 

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