About cumulative effect for Burn in

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
Hey guys

Something I read several times is that pixel degradation / burn in in OLED panels is a cumulative thing.

In other words, If you see 30 minutes of a TV channel with static logo today and 30 minutes tomorrow is the same than watching 1 hour.

The only source I found about this is the RTINGS stress test where they mention that LG confirms that.

However, this is a nonsense to me (speaking from the deeper ignorance). In that case... what is the sense of, for instance, screen refresh performed in standby each 4 hours? Apart from the other different recommendations.

I dont know, maybe all this is coming from a some kind of missunderstanding or (more probable) I am missing something...
 

JustTheFacts

Active Member
Most people come to their conclusion about the severity of OLED Burn In based on one or several of these factors.
  1. Testing done by rtings.com on 2017 OLED TVs,
  2. The dialog that was started in 2015 and continues until this day about “experts” either saying it is a problem or that it isn’t a problem.
  3. Reports’ of 2017 and older TVs experiencing burn in? Almost all of the reports of burn in are on 2017 and older TVs.
  4. Personally experienced burn in on a 2017 or older OLED
  5. Various conspiracy theories. LG doesn’t provide a 10 year OLED Burn In warranty because they know OLED BURN IN is a real problem. The manufacturers, retailers, and professional reviewers are working together to mislead the public, otherwise they would report how widespread OLED burn in is.
  6. The lack of reports of 2018 and newer OLEDs experiencing burn. This includes all manufactures of OLED TVs. All of the manufacturers use OLED supplied panels.
  7. Burn in hasn’t happened yet on 2018 and newer OLED TVs, but give it time and it will happen.
  8. Assumption that the manufacturing quality improved to a six sigma level. No more panel lottery. This is based on the fact that many Owners of 2017 OLED TVs used there TVs in the same manner and the vast majority of OLED owners never saw a hint of OLED BURN IN. On a rare occasion owners of 2017 and older OLEDs would experience permanent burn in. This suggests a panel lottery do to defects in the manufacturing process.
    The manufacturing quality was greatly improved in 2018 based on the fact that reports of OLED BURN IN on 2018 and newer TVs are extremely hard to find.
  9. All of these manufacturers use different software but the same hardware (LG supplied OLED panels). Because there are practically zero reports of OLED Burn In for all manufacturers using 2018 and newer OLED supplied panels the drastic improvement may have more to do with the hardware (LG supplied OLED panels) than software.
  10. Engineering (pixel size -aperture ratio} and better heat sinks. Less heat generated and better ways or dissipating the heat that is generated. The pixel size has a huge effect, since the improvement is exponentially related; H = I2Rt.
  11. From Tim Brookes of HOW-To Geek/ “Older OLED displays used separate, colored pixels. However, manufacturers soon realized that different colored subpixels aged at different rates, particularly blue and red. LG Display decided to use a grid of white LEDs, which age at the same rate. Colored filters are then used to create the four separate subpixels of red, green, blue, and white.”
  12. Different isotopes and additives for pixel material. Pixels more durable.
  13. Software improvements. Pixel refresh, logo luminence
  14. There have been over 10 million OLED TVs sold since 2018. The reports of OLED BURN IN are practically zero for 2018 and newer OLED TVs. You would have a hard time finding 5 reports. That is 1 TV for every 2 million TVs sold.

    You now have the 14 points to ponder. Analyze the points yourself and come to your own conclusion.
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
Most people come to their conclusion about the severity of OLED Burn In based on one or several of these factors.
  1. Testing done by rtings.com on 2017 OLED TVs,
  2. The dialog that was started in 2015 and continues until this day about “experts” either saying it is a problem or that it isn’t a problem.
  3. Reports’ of 2017 and older TVs experiencing burn in? Almost all of the reports of burn in are on 2017 and older TVs.
  4. Personally experienced burn in on a 2017 or older OLED
  5. Various conspiracy theories. LG doesn’t provide a 10 year OLED Burn In warranty because they know OLED BURN IN is a real problem. The manufacturers, retailers, and professional reviewers are working together to mislead the public, otherwise they would report how widespread OLED burn in is.
  6. The lack of reports of 2018 and newer OLEDs experiencing burn. This includes all manufactures of OLED TVs. All of the manufacturers use OLED supplied panels.
  7. Burn in hasn’t happened yet on 2018 and newer OLED TVs, but give it time and it will happen.
  8. Assumption that the manufacturing quality improved to a six sigma level. No more panel lottery. This is based on the fact that many Owners of 2017 OLED TVs used there TVs in the same manner and the vast majority of OLED owners never saw a hint of OLED BURN IN. On a rare occasion owners of 2017 and older OLEDs would experience permanent burn in. This suggests a panel lottery do to defects in the manufacturing process.
    The manufacturing quality was greatly improved in 2018 based on the fact that reports of OLED BURN IN on 2018 and newer TVs are extremely hard to find.
  9. All of these manufacturers use different software but the same hardware (LG supplied OLED panels). Because there are practically zero reports of OLED Burn In for all manufacturers using 2018 and newer OLED supplied panels the drastic improvement may have more to do with the hardware (LG supplied OLED panels) than software.
  10. Engineering (pixel size -aperture ratio} and better heat sinks. Less heat generated and better ways or dissipating the heat that is generated. The pixel size has a huge effect, since the improvement is exponentially related; H = I2Rt.
  11. From Tim Brookes of HOW-To Geek/ “Older OLED displays used separate, colored pixels. However, manufacturers soon realized that different colored subpixels aged at different rates, particularly blue and red. LG Display decided to use a grid of white LEDs, which age at the same rate. Colored filters are then used to create the four separate subpixels of red, green, blue, and white.”
  12. Different isotopes and additives for pixel material. Pixels more durable.
  13. Software improvements. Pixel refresh, logo luminence
  14. There have been over 10 million OLED TVs sold since 2018. The reports of OLED BURN IN are practically zero for 2018 and newer OLED TVs. You would have a hard time finding 5 reports. That is 1 TV for every 2 million TVs sold.

    You now have the 14 points to ponder. Analyze the points yourself and come to your own conclusion.
I understand your point, however I would like to focus the discussion on this “cumulative” matter. Is that a real thing? For me it doesn’t make any sense that 30 minutes today + 30 minutes tomorrow have the same effect than 1 hour continously.

But I am not any kind of expert so maybe I am missing something.
 

JustTheFacts

Active Member
I understand your point, however I would like to focus the discussion on this “cumulative” matter. Is that a real thing? For me it doesn’t make any sense that 30 minutes today + 30 minutes tomorrow have the same effect than 1 hour continously.

But I am not any kind of expert so maybe I am missing something.
If less than one in two million TVs since 2018 have been reported with burn in then the cumulative affect must not be a reasonable concern for 2018 and newer OLED TVs in my opinion. Rtings.com test are on 2017 outdated TVs.
 
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mikej

Well-known Member
For me it doesn’t make any sense that 30 minutes today + 30 minutes tomorrow have the same effect than 1 hour continously.

But I am not any kind of expert so maybe I am missing something.

OLED pixels degrade over time. If you only ever watched 16:9 movies, then all the pixels would degrade at roughly the same rate and the risk of screen burn would be negligible (probably even zero) but if you watch material regularly with static elements, such as a bright GMB or Netflix logo, then those pixels will wear at a faster rate than those around it, which is what leads to 'screen burn'.

There are people who've posted on here in the past with something like a GMB logo 'burnt' into the screen who say they only watch it for 30 minutes a day, or a ghostly impression of a YouTube or Netflix logo which must have presumably only been present for a short time while browsing the menus. This proves that the effect must be cumulative.
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
OLED pixels degrade over time. If you only ever watched 16:9 movies, then all the pixels would degrade at roughly the same rate and the risk of screen burn would be negligible (probably even zero) but if you watch material regularly with static elements, such as a bright GMB or Netflix logo, then those pixels will wear at a faster rate than those around it, which is what leads to 'screen burn'.

There are people who've posted on here in the past with something like a GMB logo 'burnt' into the screen who say they only watch it for 30 minutes a day, or a ghostly impression of a YouTube or Netflix logo which must have presumably only been present for a short time while browsing the menus. This proves that the effect must be cumulative.
And other people (the most, I guess) have no issues with the same use (which I guess is the common use). What makes me wonder if that are defective panels more than an “inevitable” property of the OLED.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
OLED pixels degrade over time. If you only ever watched 16:9 movies, then all the pixels would degrade at roughly the same rate and the risk of screen burn would be negligible (probably even zero) but if you watch material regularly with static elements, such as a bright GMB or Netflix logo, then those pixels will wear at a faster rate than those around it, which is what leads to 'screen burn'.

There are people who've posted on here in the past with something like a GMB logo 'burnt' into the screen who say they only watch it for 30 minutes a day, or a ghostly impression of a YouTube or Netflix logo which must have presumably only been present for a short time while browsing the menus. This proves that the effect must be cumulative.

That doesn’t really prove the effect must be cumulative, atleast not in the simplistic linear manner described. It just proves that burn in is possible. Otherwise we’d all be seeing all sorts of burn in, because most material is not random in terms of pixel utilisation. For example heads are often in the center of the frame. Those that watch a lot of anamorphic material would see a marked difference between top/bottom and Center. A hell of a lot of people would have the Netflix logo burnt in. The list goes on.

We know heat is an issue wrt OLED degradation, therefore it would follow several consecutive hours of a pixel lit up will not be the same as several hours spread over a month.
 

mikej

Well-known Member
Yes - you both make some good points, however I suspect that LG know more about their TVs than we do and they say they expect wear to be cumulative.

From the Rtings burn-in test...

"LG has told us that they expect it to be cumulative, so static content which is present for 30 minutes twice a day is equivalent to one hour of static content once per day."

Whether this cumulative use leads to burn-in presumably does depend on other factors like the colours involved, heat, screen brightness, panel variation etc but hopefully the improvements made to recent generations of OLEDs will mean this is all less of an issue in the future.
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
Yes - you both make some good points, however I suspect that LG know more about their TVs than we do and they say they expect wear to be cumulative.
Absolutely. But question is... with who in LG did they speak? I mean, I know someone who called LG support to ask about how to prevent burn in and the guy in the LG support said that OLED light level doesnt affect...

Also could exist a missunderstanding.

I wonder this because I feel too strange that only source saying such thing is Rtings article.

Any other recommendations in the internet are things like make some rest between gaming sessions and that kind of things which would be nonesense if that cumulative effect would work in the way debscribed by Ratings.
 

JustTheFacts

Active Member
Absolutely. But question is... with who in LG did they speak? I mean, I know someone who called LG support to ask about how to prevent burn in and the guy in the LG support said that OLED light level doesnt affect...

Also could exist a missunderstanding.

I wonder this because I feel too strange that only source saying such thing is Rtings article.

Any other recommendations in the internet are things like make some rest between gaming sessions and that kind of things which would be nonesense if that cumulative effect would work in the way debscribed by Ratings.
 

5to1

Well-known Member
As Ethan says they never cited their exact source. And no one else has ever followed up either.

Therefore I wouldn’t take that one comment as authorative. Surely Samsung would have banged this drum by now if it were straight forward linear degradation.
 

BillRawles

Active Member
You don't have to look very far to see evidence the PIR/burn is cumulative. The biggest OLED breakers around these parts seem to be the logos of GMB, Netflix and Freeview. Every burn complaint explains how they never paused/screen saver enabled etc. On top of this, I'm not sure who in their right mind spends the commonly argued "hours and hours" navigating the menus of Netflix or Freeview for this to happen.

I've stated before that I think the RTings burn test is flawed as there is too much of a focus on hours of use. I'd like to see the "On" part of the test reduced from 5 hours to 15 minutes, keeping the 4 cycles per 24 hours. I highly suspect we would still see PIR/burn on the news channel TVs within a disgracefully short period of time.
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
You don't have to look very far to see evidence the PIR/burn is cumulative. The biggest OLED breakers around these parts seem to be the logos of GMB, Netflix and Freeview. Every burn complaint explains how they never paused/screen saver enabled etc. On top of this, I'm not sure who in their right mind spends the commonly argued "hours and hours" navigating the menus of Netflix or Freeview for this to happen.

I've stated before that I think the RTings burn test is flawed as there is too much of a focus on hours of use. I'd like to see the "On" part of the test reduced from 5 hours to 15 minutes, keeping the 4 cycles per 24 hours. I highly suspect we would still see PIR/burn on the news channel TVs within a disgracefully short period of time.
I think that you can find evidences in both ways. So many variables involved: oled light, screen protection settings on/off, plug/unplug the TV...

If IR/BI would work in an acumulative linear way as debscribed by Rtings TVs would be failing to everyone and it is not the case.

It is also strange as mentioned by 5to1 that if this would be the case samsung would not use it in a marketing way.
 

kevin S

Standard Member
Most people come to their conclusion about the severity of OLED Burn In based on one or several of these factors.
  1. Testing done by rtings.com on 2017 OLED TVs,
  2. The dialog that was started in 2015 and continues until this day about “experts” either saying it is a problem or that it isn’t a problem.
  3. Reports’ of 2017 and older TVs experiencing burn in? Almost all of the reports of burn in are on 2017 and older TVs.
  4. Personally experienced burn in on a 2017 or older OLED
  5. Various conspiracy theories. LG doesn’t provide a 10 year OLED Burn In warranty because they know OLED BURN IN is a real problem. The manufacturers, retailers, and professional reviewers are working together to mislead the public, otherwise they would report how widespread OLED burn in is.
  6. The lack of reports of 2018 and newer OLEDs experiencing burn. This includes all manufactures of OLED TVs. All of the manufacturers use OLED supplied panels.
  7. Burn in hasn’t happened yet on 2018 and newer OLED TVs, but give it time and it will happen.
  8. Assumption that the manufacturing quality improved to a six sigma level. No more panel lottery. This is based on the fact that many Owners of 2017 OLED TVs used there TVs in the same manner and the vast majority of OLED owners never saw a hint of OLED BURN IN. On a rare occasion owners of 2017 and older OLEDs would experience permanent burn in. This suggests a panel lottery do to defects in the manufacturing process.
    The manufacturing quality was greatly improved in 2018 based on the fact that reports of OLED BURN IN on 2018 and newer TVs are extremely hard to find.
  9. All of these manufacturers use different software but the same hardware (LG supplied OLED panels). Because there are practically zero reports of OLED Burn In for all manufacturers using 2018 and newer OLED supplied panels the drastic improvement may have more to do with the hardware (LG supplied OLED panels) than software.
  10. Engineering (pixel size -aperture ratio} and better heat sinks. Less heat generated and better ways or dissipating the heat that is generated. The pixel size has a huge effect, since the improvement is exponentially related; H = I2Rt.
  11. From Tim Brookes of HOW-To Geek/ “Older OLED displays used separate, colored pixels. However, manufacturers soon realized that different colored subpixels aged at different rates, particularly blue and red. LG Display decided to use a grid of white LEDs, which age at the same rate. Colored filters are then used to create the four separate subpixels of red, green, blue, and white.”
  12. Different isotopes and additives for pixel material. Pixels more durable.
  13. Software improvements. Pixel refresh, logo luminence
  14. There have been over 10 million OLED TVs sold since 2018. The reports of OLED BURN IN are practically zero for 2018 and newer OLED TVs. You would have a hard time finding 5 reports. That is 1 TV for every 2 million TVs sold.

    You now have the 14 points to ponder. Analyze the points yourself and come to your own conclusion.
I have a 2018 LG OLED55CPA and the burn in is HORRIBLE. I have tons of other images burned in that area visible with other color backgrounds. My tv was not used more than 4 hours a day and mainly to watch Netflix or Amazon Prime. I do watch sports but I took care of this tv and have no idea how this happened! I never left the tv on with fixed images. The channel guide from Movistar is completely burned in as is Netflix and other logos. Absolutely awful.
 

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GAmbrose

Well-known Member
I have a 2018 LG OLED55CPA and the burn in is HORRIBLE. I have tons of other images burned in that area visible with other color backgrounds. My tv was not used more than 4 hours a day and mainly to watch Netflix or Amazon Prime. I do watch sports but I took care of this tv and have no idea how this happened! I never left the tv on with fixed images. The channel guide from Movistar is completely burned in as is Netflix and other logos. Absolutely awful.

Did you leave the TV on standby when not in use, so it could run through the compensation cycles (aka burn in prevention cleaner)?

If you turn it off at the plug you are asking for trouble.
 

kevin S

Standard Member
Did you leave the TV on standby when not in use, so it could run through the compensation cycles (aka burn in prevention cleaner)?

If you turn it off at the plug you are asking for trouble.
I swear to God I only turn the tv off with the remote power button. I would never even think to turn off a tv with a plug. There are burn ins on top of burn ins! I didn't even know that was possible
 

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JustTheFacts

Active Member
I have a 2018 LG OLED55CPA and the burn in is HORRIBLE. I have tons of other images burned in that area visible with other color backgrounds. My tv was not used more than 4 hours a day and mainly to watch Netflix or Amazon Prime. I do watch sports but I took care of this tv and have no idea how this happened! I never left the tv on with fixed images. The channel guide from Movistar is completely burned in as is Netflix and other logos. Absolutely awful.
Could you please clarify the model number. OLED55CPA?
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
Hey Kevin, terrible, man…

Quite impossible to understand what happened to your C8 considering your usage.

Seems a defective panel… did you contact LG?
 

kevin S

Standard Member
Hey Kevin, terrible, man…

Quite impossible to understand what happened to your C8 considering your usage.

Seems a defective panel… did you contact LG?
Thx. Yeah I contacted them and received a weak response from Customer Care. I’m waiting to see what a repair person from their site says. Honestly though, I’m not optimistic because it seems obvious that LG knows there are issues and seems they hope they get past the 2 year warranty before things start happening. I totally understand anomalies can occur but I’ve read a lot of people having similar issues..maybe not as obvious as mine but serious issues nonetheless. I paid way too much to have this bad of an experience. Wow that sounds awful but I hope people understand my frustration.
 

Ethan Burke

Standard Member
Thx. Yeah I contacted them and received a weak response from Customer Care. I’m waiting to see what a repair person from their site says. Honestly though, I’m not optimistic because it seems obvious that LG knows there are issues and seems they hope they get past the 2 year warranty before things start happening. I totally understand anomalies can occur but I’ve read a lot of people having similar issues..maybe not as obvious as mine but serious issues nonetheless. I paid way too much to have this bad of an experience. Wow that sounds awful but I hope people understand my frustration.
Fully understand.

Burn in is a known issue with OLEDs, but it should happen (or at least to be noticeable) after a heavy usage and non varied content. Which is not your case.

Truth is that you can find every kind of cases for this matter: burn in after a year, no burn in after 5+ years, burn in using the TV only for on demand content without logos, no burn in using the TV as PC monitor… whatever.

I am not so sure that LG would reject to repair or replace the panel out of warranty… take into account that OLED is the LG bet, to give a good customer service is in their best interest if they want to maintain a proper customer base. Don’t give up yet.

I think that you are from Spain, me too, so buena suerte compañero ;)
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
Logic would imply that if you have specific images burn in then it is that was caused the burn in. I am guessing in-conjunction with other facts like heat and sunlight.
 

BillRawles

Active Member
Logic would imply that if you have specific images burn in then it is that was caused the burn in. I am guessing in-conjunction with other facts like heat and sunlight.
Or the fact that the panel cannot perform its sole function without breaking itself so its faulty/not fit for purpose
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
Or the fact that the panel cannot perform its sole function without breaking itself so its faulty/not fit for purpose
I think this is the unanswered question. Why do 99% of panel work fine and other suffer issues. This could be a quality issue and/or linked to other factors.
 

BillRawles

Active Member
I think this is the unanswered question. Why do 99% of panel work fine and other suffer issues. This could be a quality issue and/or linked to other factors.
I think your 99% figure is very optimistic. I've seen 2 screens with burn and the owners have no clue (not my place to highlight), I highly doubt they're isolated cases.
 
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