A Vision for Economic Democracy

[MikeTV]

I find myself agreeing with every word that Peter Tatchell says in this great talk entitled 'We expect Political Democracy... Why not Economic Democracy Too?'



It presents a broad range of issues, and is interesting even if you don't agree politically with his economic suggestions. And even if you don't watch all 90 minutes, I think his opening summation of the current state of Britain, our economy, and austerity, is well worth a watch.

It's a call for a major rethink of our economic system and social priorities, which isn't being offered by any of our spineless political parties, or a media which is wedded to the corporate/Westminster status quo.

 

[MikeTV]

What's the betting the first response will be a Karkus libertarian polemic?

 

[pragmatic]

No it was you talking about Karkus I'll watch it when I get a chance.

 

[karkus30]

What's the betting the first response will be a Karkus libertarian polemic?

My first response is what an arsehole. I'm not even going to bother. How you sat through that much of his inane drivel I don't really know. Have you thought about picking up some economics books and trying to get to grips with what is true and what isn't ? He might benefit from studying something beyond sociology when trying to convince someone about economics. Tomorrow I'm going to go listen to the wicked witch of the West on her thoughts on economics, possibly the Pantomime horse after that.

Really mike, you are now scraping dangerously close, not to the bottom of the barrel but the bottom of he surface it sits on.

 

[MikeTV]

Oh dear. Must have struck a nerve.

 

[MikeTV]

My first response is what an arsehole. I'm not even going to bother. How you sat through that much of his inane drivel I don't really know. Have you thought about picking up some economics books and trying to get to grips with what is true and what isn't ? He might benefit from studying something beyond sociology when trying to convince someone about economics.

How do you know "it's inane drivel" if you haven't even bothered to watch it?

Tomorrow I'm going to go listen to the wicked witch of the West on her thoughts on economics, possibly the Pantomime horse after that.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

 

[karkus30]

Oh dear. Must have struck a nerve.

Lets look at his 'wealth tax' for the richest 20% that's the 90% percentile group which starts at earnings of £28K !

Or does he mean by wealth, home, possessions, pension fund and earnings, because that starts at just below a million. Now I don't know about you, but middle income homeowners often have a home now valued at £500K. Even in Darlington, moderate earners find themselves on that. Add in say two cars worth £50K and possessions in the region of 300K then add a pension pot and a monthly salary.

In the South East, a scruffy B and B bought for a pittance is now worth in excess of 1 million. The owners earn a tiny amount from their meagre pensions and from the B and B itself.

That's who he wants to steal off ?

Somebody who has worked hard, been careful and works for a living should be expected to fork out £200K ? I though Cyprus was bad enough, but this fanciful, flight of fancy is so disgusting it sounds exactly the sort of thing the Nazis did to the Jews prior to the war. Its a kind of anti semitism applied to anyone who has money.

He doesn't even understand the public debt which he thinks we can pay off. He is spreading insidious lies and hatred and is no better than the mad muller they are trying to kick out of the UK.

I kid you not, I felt physically sick at hearing his views aired in front of young people.

 

[karkus30]

How do you know "it's inane drivel" if you haven't even bothered to watch it?
Why doesn't that surprise me?

I watched 10 minutes. I have watched all the video links supplied by you and LGS, I note you have never bothered actually reading the books I have suggested and then made comment.

10 minutes of complete rubbish poured out of his mouth, jealous bile. He is a gay rights activist that has lost his way. He has spent so long fighting he has ended up on the wrong side and no longer realises the damage he is doing. Its one thing to fight for rights and quite another thing to condemn 10% of the population, in exactly the same way he feels his particular group have been singled out and condemned.

 

[EarthRod]

Oh dear. Must have struck a nerve.

Took you long enough - practice makes perfect.

Normally karkus takes the bait and spits out the hook, but not this time!

 

[MikeTV]

I watched 10 minutes. I have watched all the video links supplied by you and LGS, I note you have never bothered actually reading the books I have suggested and then made comment.

10 minutes of complete rubbish poured out of his mouth, jealous bile. He is a gay rights activist that has lost his way. He has spent so long fighting he has ended up on the wrong side and no longer realises the damage he is doing. Its one thing to fight for rights and quite another thing to condemn 10% of the population, in exactly the same way he feels his particular group have been singled out and condemned.

Whereas, in fact, he is making common sense recommendations like having employee representation on the boards of large corporations. Recommendations which are so politically benign as to have even been voiced by members of our current cabinet.

It's indicative of the extremist viewpoint of some people on this board, that such ideas should be met with such inflammatory language as "jealous bile" and "damaging", rather than the respect and consideration that these ideas deserve.

 

[karkus30]

Took you long enough - practice makes perfect.

Normally karkus takes the bait and spits out the hook, but not this time!

Did you watch it ?

 

[karkus30]

Whereas, in fact, he is making common sense recommendations like having employee representation on the boards of large corporations. Recommendations which are so politically benign as to have even been voiced by members of our current cabinet.

It's indicative of the extremist viewpoint of some people on this board, that such ideas should be met with such inflammatory language as "jealous bile" and "damaging", rather than the respect and consideration that these ideas deserve.

What large corporations ? G4s, SERCO, ATOS origins, Bank of England, Treasury, MOD.

In a world full of these big corporations what is the advantage of a few staff on the Board ? Four fifths of **** all.

He deserves no more consideration than Stalin did. Heaven help us if someone like that gets control.

 

[EarthRod]

Did you watch it ?

No, I didn't unfortunately.

Maybe some other time when the premonition faculty is not working too well.

 

[MikeTV]

but this fanciful, flight of fancy is so disgusting it sounds exactly the sort of thing the Nazis did to the Jews prior to the war. Its a kind of anti semitism applied to anyone who has money.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've nothing further to say to you if you are going to start comparing a wealth tax to Nazi atrocities.

 

[sidicks]

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've nothing further to say to you if you are going to start comparing a wealth tax to Nazi atrocities.

MikeTV

Can I ask, would you be adversely affected by such as "Wealth tax"??

 

[MikeTV]

No, I didn't unfortunately.

Maybe some other time when the premonition faculty is not working too well.

I appreciate it is a long video, and we are all busy people. His main talk is about an hour, with an interesting question and answer session afterwards. But I'm not expecting anyone to have watched it in it's entirety, soon. It's just there to enjoy at your leisure!

 

[karkus30]

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've nothing further to say to you if you are going to start comparing a wealth tax to Nazi atrocities.

Its rare I take exception to somebody's words, but in this case I feel its entirely justified. Why segregate 10% of the population. It isn't a wealth tax, because the tax has already been paid, its stealing. I don't know what you call someone who turns up to plunder your assets by coercive force, but I'm in no doubt.

We had that little chat about Ghandi but you don't get it ?

Maybe a tax on gay people then because of their lifestyle and the propensity to spread disease due to the number of partners. What about one on fat people because they clutter up the wards, have ill health and take up two seats on the bus. What about taking one child away from those that have more than the circumscribed 2.5 and putting them to work as slaves.

Why is it OK to single out a percentage of the population like that ? The answer is, that it isn't and you shouldn't support his babble. The people with the Bed and Breakfast, are they expected to sell of their homes and give the 200K to the state, or maybe give over their possessions, jewels Diamonds, rings and fillings.

You will note that in Godwin's law 'as the length of the discussion continues'. I have no doubts at all about where someone like that would take the world.

 

[IronGiant]

This thread will close if anyone mentions N**** again.

 

[MikeTV]

Maybe a tax on gay people then because of their lifestyle and the propensity to spread disease due to the number of partners. What about one on fat people because they clutter up the wards, have ill health and take up two seats on the bus. What about taking one child away from those that have more than the circumscribed 2.5 and putting them to work as slaves.

You should be careful saying things like that on a forum, Karkus, because on first reading, I assumed that they were views that you actually subscribed to, rather than examples of things that neither of us subscribe to. It isn't obvious from what you have written. I'm being generous by pointing out that assumption.

 

[kav]

You should be careful saying things like that on a forum, Karkus, because on first reading, I assumed that they were views that you actually subscribed to, rather than examples of things that neither of us subscribe to. It isn't obvious from what you have written. I'm being generous by pointing out that assumption.

We should leave quoting out of context to the media. It's pretty obvious karkus was highlighting the ridiculousness of such ideas.

 

[MikeTV]

We should leave quoting out of context to the media. It's pretty obvious karkus was highlighting the ridiculousness of such ideas.

Nothing would surprise me, given some of the things said earlier on, which I found offensive, and also in other threads at the moment by various people.

I was being honest, Kav - not point scoring. I really read it that way, initially.

 

[MikeTV]

One of things I found most interesting in the video (given I that I had already been talking about a lot of the themes on this forum anyway for years), was the idea that the electorate is entirely disenfranchised from our political system, given the homogeneity and spinelessness of all the main parties. How do we overcome the widespread belief that nothing will ever change, and that obvious disparities and inequalities will never be redressed? And why do we simply put up with it like lemmings?

I fully agree that we can change things, and that opposition is cumulative. History is full of ideas which at one point in our past would have been considered completely implausible for social, economic or political reasons, but are now entirely endorsed worldwide.

What is needed is the majority to speak with one voice, and make our politicians accountable for the state we are in - rather just adopting the rhetoric of those who represent the elite and powerful. It's our country. Is it really how we want it run? Surely, as one of the richest nations in the world, we have an opportunity to make our democratic systems serve our needs, and not solely the interests of the 1%?

 

[Ed Selley]

Before we go any further, could I ask this one again as it didn't seem to get an answer for some reason or another.

MikeTV

Can I ask, would you be adversely affected by such as "Wealth tax"??

 

[karkus30]

One of things I found most interesting in the video (given I that I had already been talking about a lot of the themes on this forum anyway for years), was the idea that the electorate is entirely disenfranchised from our political system, given the homogeneity and spinelessness of all the main parties. How do we overcome the widespread belief that nothing will ever change, and that obvious disparities and inequalities will never be redressed? And why do we simply put up with it like lemmings?

I fully agree that we can change things, and that opposition is cumulative. History is full of ideas which at one point in our past would have been considered completely implausible for social, economic or political reasons, but are now entirely endorsed worldwide.

What is needed is the majority to speak with one voice, and make our politicians accountable for the state we are in - rather just adopting the rhetoric of those who represent the elite and powerful. It's our country. Is it really how we want it run? Surely, as one of the richest nations in the world, we have an opportunity to make our democratic systems serve our needs, and not solely the interests of the 1%?

Read Douglas Carswell iDemocracy and the end to big parties.

 

[MikeTV]

Before we go any further, could I ask this one again as it didn't seem to get an answer for some reason or another.

Because it's irrelevant to whether a political position has any validity.