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A very disillusioned Home Cinema-er :(

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by senna, Jun 8, 2003.

  1. senna

    senna
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    Im shot folks.

    Hello and how ya all doing, been lurking here for a while and reading and digesting and learning and observing.
    Great forum.

    Seems to me there is someone here that can answer any question, law of averages see, enough people with enough knowledge = the answer to anything:)

    My question is simple:
    Why am I so crap at buying tellys?

    OK'OK mebbie not that bad but jeez am I going through the dollars at the moment, I think I suffer from whats called 'Nothings-good;enuffitus' :(

    Bought a rear p/j Samsung year and a half back and to be fair this set has been great, you know where you stand with rear p/j tellys.... big pic / bit blurry / cr@p for calibrating guns on the xbox.. no problem I can live with it.. this year after the evil and vile enemy that is the taxman had done his worst I thought I'd get a Samsung Plasma.. hey ho and a complete front room refit later I get the hump with the plasma because the dark colour tones are naff, man all I wanted was a TV that I could watch 28 Days Later on in style...
    So there it is on the wall, family love it, it ooozes style and I'm the only one in the house grumpy coz my 28 Days Later looks like someone shat on the DVD.. Grr:(

    Dang it (or something similar) I though so after going through numerous threads and reviews at projectorcentral and here I went and ordered an Infocus X1 to be delivered to my business today... Hurrah...(hurroo)
    Got a good deal - £899 with a free lamp. Cool.
    No.
    Not cool ...
    Rainbows.
    Zippy.
    Bungle.
    Jeffrey.
    The strange bloke in the dungeress.

    The projector killed my eyes in 10 minutes flat.
    Oh bum.

    Fiddled and foddled with the p/j - hell even watched Dale Winton on the lotto potto and it makes me puke... Im not prone to any kind of photosensitivity but this thing looks absolutely fantastic and turns your eyes to jelly. I can still see waves of wierdness before my eyes 2 hours later. I did some acid in my teens but it cant be that ;)

    So here I sit with 6K of TVs in my living room, with my big plans for soundproofing and electric curtains and I'll be watching Have I Got News For You on my trusty 32" Phillips CRT in the bedroom.

    Yeah I know and I feel guilty for complaining about what are in effect the trappings of money and wealth when there are folks without a pot to pee in but I'm lost now.

    Where am I going wrong. The plasma is linked through DVI to a very good PC and DVD, the P/J tried through SVHS (DVD and Sky Digital) and I cant get what I need from either.

    Demo them first you say. Yeah I know, live on the isle of wight - can only demo a 14" Matsui here so some pot luck was needed, backed by research... seems my research was a little 'out' ..

    Oh well, sorry my first post was a little negative.. just my story so far...
    Not to worry, got some Carlos Santana and John Lee Hooker on the winamp and some beer so ill sit here and codgitate.

    Peace.

    Glen
     
  2. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Buy a NEC HT1000 and if you don't love it I'll be gobsmacked - and buy it off you :)
     
  3. Mr Bump

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    That's what you get for buying a cheap pj - you get what you pay for and all that. I wouldn't recommend paying anything less than £2000 for a pj and probably twice that for a really decent one. X1s are crap and are known for horrendous rainbow effects. Same with Plasmas really - except they start being okay at about four grand.

    As for 28 Days Later - it IS utter crap - no matter how good your TV/pj/plasma is, it will still look like garbage! Danny Boyle filmed it on Digital Video and it looks awful - he said it was because he want that dirty gritty look - I think it simply looks cheap and naff.
     
  4. Klippie

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    senna,

    Sorry to here about your home cinema grief, it sounds like you need an lcd PJ to fix your eye problem, so many to choose from and various prices but I would go for one with a hi-res display as it will show very little if any screen door and won't hurt your eyes.

    I saw rainbows as well when I looked for a PJ a while back there is no way I could live with that all over the screen I finally settled for a Sony HS10 and have not looked back.

    You could sell off some of the gear you hate but be prepaired for a big hit in the pocket.

    Klippie.
     
  5. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    You need a CRT projector... (ducks for cover to avoid torrent of abuse from die-hard single lens fans whilst slipping on a fire-proof suit ;) )

    OK, seriously, you should consider a trip to the mainland to visit few of the better retailers & specialists. I don't need to tell you that buying from spec sheets/reviews or on price is costing you more in the long run.

    Each technology has its +'s and -'s. In my view CRT still gives the most film-like image so shouldn't be ruled out if you have the space for it. Used CRT projectors offer great value too.

    Single lens products have improved dramatically over the last 2-3 years. The entry level price points have also fallen (and will continue to do so), but you can't rely on an entry level product to be as good as something costing twice as much. You found that out with the X1 ofcourse.

    Your eyes should be the final decider. Go treat yourself to a couple of days dem'ing. :)

    Regards
     
  6. LV426

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    Chris - I know you are (quite justifiably) a CRT fan - and you know that I am (quite justifiably) not.

    Glen - Chris' most pertinent point is well made; what you are doing wrong is buying blind based on the views and opinions of others. Don't misunderstand me - others' opinions are useful, but should only be taken as a guide, to help you produce a short-list of things to audition.

    You have found this out the hard (and expensive) way. In the long run, you would have spent less, and enjoyed more, if you had invested the time to take a few days' break on the mainland and used that to spend plenty of time in the company of demo kit.

    The issue of DLP rainbows, for example, is a case in point. There are those (lucky?) people who have slow enough visual acuity to not see them; there are those (like me) whose eyes are fast enough that I see, and am nauseated by, rainbows on every DLP I have seen. I suspect Chris doesn't believe this, but I have seen rainbows on very upmarket CRT setups, too, although I'm one of only three (I think) people on this forum who are prepared to admit it.

    People with slow eyes will tell you that even the cheapest DLP is great because it combines the convenience of a single lens device with good contrast levels. And they don't even understand what all the rainbow fuss is about. Then, based on these opinions, you buy one and find it makes you ill. People with somewhat faster eyes will tell you that CRTs are the only devices that can produce a truly filmic image (and they may be right). People like me will tell you that only LCDs are free from any form of flickering due to refresh rates and are therefore far easier on the eye. I'd be unlikely to consider buying anything else (present technology).

    You REALLY can only tell what suits YOU by getting demos. That is the one mistake you have made (twice, now). Sorry but that, IMHO, is it.
     
  7. Pablo

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    Chris: Who are these good retailers? I personally would love to demo the Yamaha LPX500 against the NEC HT1000, but don't know where to go for good service.

    Yesterday I called one retailer in Leeds who, in their glossy ads in every monthly mag show a good selection of kit.

    I was informed that 'I think we have a Marantz DLP and maybe a Sanyo Z1 on demonstration'. Fantastic. Not. When I explained to the guy that I needed to see if I'm affected by the RBE he said ' Ah, you've been reading those forums, haven't you?'

    I really do object to this patonising attitude from the vast majority of the Hi-Fi and Home Cinema trade. All I want to do is demo the gear I've shortlisted - with your guys' help - and spend some of the hard earned! Any thoughts?
     
  8. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Nigel, I'm a fan of any technology that gives the viewer a picture they are happy with. You prefer LCD, some favour DLP whilst others like CRT. Each to their own like I said - each technology has it's +'s and -'s.

    Rainbow on CRT is controversial. Before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion it would be useful to point out that CRT doesn't use a sequential colour system like DLP, so the phenomenon isn't the same thing.

    There is (IMO) an interaction between high contrast images, frame rate and the persistence of vision of the human eye. Under very specific conditions and when you provoke it by scanning your eyes quickly across the image I believe it is possible to induce an effect where you catch a glimpse of something that looks like a colour flash. When LCD reaches the higher contrast ratios of DLP and CRT perhaps this effect will be seen on that technology too.

    Regards
     
  9. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    I have every sympathy with you. I have been saying for 5 yrs that customers would eventually pay the price for the ever decreasing profit margins that traditional dealers had to operate on compared to internet retailers.

    Now it's becoming harder to get dems. Retailers are choosing to put their money in other faster moving lines where they see less price competition. It's shocking to realise that Internet retailing is becoming anti-competitive because it stifles customer choice.

    There is a glimmer of hope. Some manufacturers will loan demo stock to a dealer. See if there's someone near you with access to brands.

    I hope this doesn't sound trite or patronising, but "good service" has a price, though we often forget it that when looking for the cheapest deal.

    Regards
     
  10. sainthalo

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    no body has told you to return your kit as it is not fit for the purpose. especially the X1. how long have you had it? you should return that immediately.
     
  11. theritz

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    There's a world of difference between.....
    ....and goods not being fit for purpose. DLP has lots of devotees, and lots of people complain of rainbows and eye-strain --- that does not make it not-fit for purpose.

    You really do need to demo some stuff..... particularly with front projection, there are so many variables and different models, it's the only way you're going to get a handle on what you are likely to be satisfied with.

    That said, imho, the world of front-projection is one of compromises, so if you truly do suffer from "nothing's-good-enuff-itis", then you're in for an interesting journey..........Messiah will be along shortly to explain..........:D :D


    You could do a lot worse than spend a morning or afternoon with one of the dealers who sponsor the Forum - Av-Sales and NexNix get good feedback here from folks who've used them - dealers of that calibre should be able to show you a range of PJs and give you some advice.


    All the best.


    Sean G.
     
  12. senna

    senna
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    Thank you fellas for you interesting feedback, it is much appreciated.

    It is not as bad financially as it may sound though, the plasma is going back and I can sell on the X1 as I am in the computer trade, so I wont take any kind of money-hit as such.

    I understand the problem with 28 Days Later MrBump mentions, its filmed in DV and can look wonky on any screen, I suppose that is why I use it as a test. Love the film so use it as a marker. I have also used the plasma linked to SKY Digital and movies featuring dark scenes look pants. I also hooked up SKY to the X1 and it looked great but I can see them colour flashes all the time. Thats my problem really and Im not knocking the X1 for that as such, I am blown away by the picture quality in layman terms but I cannot watch it.

    Im kinda new to this so thank you for you straight talking.
    Digibox Football and DVD Movies (horror/dark) are my thing so I guess anyone out there who can recommend something that will give me a big picture for these things I would try to get a dem of.

    Bloody good point about internet/local retailer price and quality of service though. Perfectly put. People walk into my store and want to talk for 45 minutes and gain MY knowledge (which is priceless;) ahem) then they hit me with the line 'oh you want £180 for Soundblaster Plat - ebuyer do it for £160' or whatever.
    I make £20 on that item anyway and they want it at below trade. With advice. And no quibble swap out. And an ebuyer price match.
    Its flippin' hard work :(
    I always try to go local to an independent, but unfortunately there are none for AV on the Isle of Wight and as I work 6 days a week Im shatted.
    Mustn't grumble mind, will get there in the end :):)

    Peace,

    Glen
     
  13. Adrenochrome

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    new business opportunity for you there :smashin:
     
  14. LV426

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    I have insufficient technical knowledge to do anything but speculate. My speculation is that, although CRTs do not use a sequential colour system as do DLPs, it is possible that either
    > if the three colour tubes are not driven precisely concurrently (ie, if the three colour components are sent to the three tubes at slightly different times) coupled with the way in which phosphor illumination decays between refreshes
    > possible different decay rates of the three phosphors used (although I have no reason to know one way or the other that the phosphors do differ between the tubes)
    that there is, in fact, a genuine rainbow effect similar to (but not the same as) that produced by sequientual DLPs.

    Put it this way - I have never experienced a rainbow in that brightest, most contrasty of presentations - a good, well equipped, cinema.
     
  15. Mr Bump

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    Even cinemas with 3 chip DLP projectors? ;)
     
  16. LV426

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    Never seen one so I can't comment. It seems likely, however, that these may well be (in the context of this discussion) as refresh-free as LCDs. It depends (and I don't know) whether a DLP pixel retains it's state between refreshes, which is what makes LCDs refresh-free, and the lack of it is what makes CRTs flicker.
     
  17. Mr Bump

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    Heh, yeah - they are supposed to be indistiguisable from or even better than normal projectors. But I was just messing with ya. I think the point here is that everyone has different tastes. Nigel has found that LCDs suit him by far the best. Chris has found that CRTs are easily his favorite and I am a big fan of DLP. I rarely see rainbows and the few occasions I do, they really don't bother me - I like having a great, well defined picture - LCD's chickenwire effect gets on my nerves far more than rainbows and CRT, although wonderful, is simply too big, cumbersome and expensive for my needs. So really Senna, you need to find out for yourself what suits you.
     
  18. AngryofMayfair

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    Just to add my experiances - I also can see rainbows on a CRT PJ - a friend has a Sony G70 and it's picture is superb BUT every now and then I see colour flashes/trails exactly the same as DLP rainbows. Not as bad though - i really have to have been moving my eyes or head very fast but it *is* possible...
     

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