a stupid question

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by luoxy, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. luoxy

    luoxy
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    regarding upscaling DVDP that able to upscale to 720p/1080i. My question is since the LCD tvs is able to do upscale already, why we need the DVDP to doing upscaling?
     
  2. loz

    loz
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    You don't need it, but it is possible that the scaler in the DVD does a better job than the scaler in the TV.

    On the other hand, unless you have a perfect resolution match, the TV is going to have to rescale it to the resolution of its own panel anyway.

    Though providing a higher quality source in the first place, which is theoretically what an upscaling DVD can do, should still going to result in a better picture.
     
  3. Radioactive__Man

    Radioactive__Man
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    I doubt your telly upscales, it will however take a 1080i and 720p signal from an external source and scale it to the native/max res of your telly

    if I'm wrong you should be able to use a std DVD player with component output and set your telly to 1080i, and I aint seen one of them yet, but tbh I aint in the market for an LCD these days, so readying my favourite chair for some humble pie
     
  4. loz

    loz
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    Of course it upscales. How else would any LCD screen take a 480 or 576p image from a DVD source and then fill a 1366x768 display (for example)?

    Unless we have different understanding of "upscaling" that is.
     
  5. neilmcl

    neilmcl
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    :confused: The OP is referring to an LCD TV which along with all fixed-pixel displays will upscale to their native resolution.
     
  6. Radioactive__Man

    Radioactive__Man
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    OK let me be specific, I had an Arcam DV79 which had a max res of 576p, my Pioneer 435xde has a native res of 1024x768, the best picture I could ever get was 576p on the plasma, therefore the Pioneer does not upscale

    by consequence if you feed a 480/576p from a std player to an lcd which has a native res of 1366x768, it will not magically make the dvd a 720p one will it ?

    you will only see the full potential of that lcd if you feed it a vga signal or an upscaled signal from a HD player to achieve a 1:1 pixel map. otherwise the pixels [480/576] are stretched to fill the res of the LCD [1366x768]

    obviously the key phrase I was omitting earlier was 1:1 mapping sorry for my misdirection
     
  7. loz

    loz
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    But LCD and Plasma tvs don't just "stretch" the image to fill the pixels, they resample it - just the same as a upscaling DVD will do.

    Look here
    The video processing chips in the LCD/Plasma are the same chips as in the upscaling DVD players.

    "Image scaling continues to have a significant impact on the display industry, as displays move from analog to pixelated digital displays. In pixelated displays (LCD, Plasma, DLP and LCOS), scaling is required to deliver accurate and viewable images from all PC graphics resolutions (VGA, XGA, SXGA, UXGA and higher) as well as TV broadcast standards (Standard-Definition TV signals: NTSC, PAL, SECAM, and High-Definition TV signals) onto displays with different native resolutions and aspect ratios without creating objectionable artifacts. Genesis was the first to develop and offer single-chip scaling solutions. Building upon its extensive scaling patent portfolio, Genesis continues to invent cost-effective, highly integrated components that deliver outstanding image quality on flat screen televisions. Genesis scaling technology is a key enabler to the industry growth and consumer acceptance of the fixed-pixel television display as preferable replacements to CRT television."
     
  8. Radioactive__Man

    Radioactive__Man
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    OK, firstly I am not a electronic signal engineer but my understanding is as follows :-

    resampling is not the same as upscaling

    resampling is a step required for upscaling

    i.e. 480/576p source is resampled and stretched to fill larger resolution [say a 1366x768 panel]

    upscaling will introduce additional lines of data interpolated from the original source [like my Snazio HD streamer].

    I'll let someone else with more in depth knowledge than me explain the finer points, but having owned and played with various setups over the years this is how I currently comprehend todays technology :)
     
  9. loz

    loz
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    :confused:

    Call it what you will.
    It is still the same type of chips in the DVD or the TV doing the same thing.
    Increasing the pixel count, smoothing out the jaggies, etc, etc, in order to make a lower resolution image into a higher level one with the minimum of artefacts.

    You can either feed a 576p image from the DVD into a TV and let the panel resize it to 768 pixels
    Or you can take the same source image of the DVD and upscale it to 720p and then feed that into the TV and again let the panel resize it to 768 pixels.

    The question is, which end - the TV or the DVD - has the best quality chips doing the best job of resizing/resampling/upscaling/whatever the image.
     
  10. loz

    loz
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    OK, I shouldn't have introduced "resampling".

    Lets just call it scaling as Genesis do.

    The point is the chips in the panel are doing the same job with the input as the the chips in the upscaling DVD are doing. And the chips in the TV are made by the same company making the chips in the DVD

    Quote from the brochure on my Panasonic Plasma
    "1080p Digital Re-mastering Processor: Up-converting various video signals into signals with higher image quality. This processor up-converts a variety of video signals, such as those from analogue broadcasts and DVD movies, to provide a level of image quality that approaches full-HD. The resulting images have sharper details and more lifelike realism.".
    It doesn't just repeat a few lines in order to do that - it "upscales" it (if we want to use that word)
     
  11. Radioactive__Man

    Radioactive__Man
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    not calling it anything mate, you have your opinion which seems fuelled by websites and what you've read and my experience comes from my current hardware and years of mucking around :smashin:

    bottom line is I have never seen a screen [be it Plasma/LCD or CRT] marketed as an upscaling one, IMHO thats why there is a healthy market for add-on scalers and more recently upscaling DVD players.

    as I stated at the top of the page I am prepared to eat humble pie if I am wrong but nothing you have written or quoted makes we want to alter my opinion.

    why don't we leave the discussion open for someone who does know, and have fun when your Oppo arrives :smashin:

    edit/... just saw your reply, so you have a 1080p capable plasma ?, are you expecting 1080 lines of resolution from a 1024x768 or 1366x768 panel, as that appears the highest available resolution on 42 and 50" panels, or have you bought something not listed on their UK website ?
     
  12. loz

    loz
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    The reason there is a healthy market for add-on scalers is because they do it better (than either the scaler in the upscaling DVD or in the "upconverting" TV). Not because the TV doesn't do it.
    And so they should, they can cost a lot of money.

    And no, I don't have a 1080p plasma in terms of its ability to display full 1080p resolution. It just has a "1080p Digital processing Chip-set: This chip-set processes the full-HD video signal in its original condition, without down-conversion. The full-HD video signal allows the reproduction of highly expressive images with exceptional detail and full 1920 x 1080 resolution. Used in VIERA, this high-performance chip-set processes the HD signal without altering its natural specifications." ( of course this could be interpreted as marketing fluff...)
     
  13. luoxy

    luoxy
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    oopz, I didn't expect my post cause a debate here.

    On the other hand, I do appreciate Loz and Radioactive__Man for share your opinion and experience, throught which I think I start to understand on this upscale/resample..issue, whatever it is called. Thx you guys.
     
  14. loz

    loz
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    Well one thing is for sure.

    The scaling chips in my new Oppo DVD player that arrived today do a much better job than those in my Philips HD Ready LCD TV.

    There is a visible improvement switching from 576p to 720p output on the Oppo.

    Even though the source is the same in both cases (same player, same DVD), and both are rescaled by the TV to fit the panel, using the 720p source is less noisy and sharper (without increasing artefacts)
     

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