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A Projector Idiot

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Shadow Jam, Oct 24, 2005.

  1. Shadow Jam

    Shadow Jam
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    ok well im an idiot when it comes to projectors. I know very little about them, other than the fact i like the cinema, and would love that sort of thing in my own home. Now, i went and bought a basic projector, without doing much homework on the matter.

    I wont say what model, for im sure i would get laughed at, but the problem i had was that when watching the image, for every pixel or 2 there was a black one. I dont know wether this is because the dvd isnt capable of projecting a full picture, or the dvd doesnt have high enough resolution or what, but to have a sort of net effect over the entire picture completely ruined the experience. I was only running it at about 4 feet wide, which is a few inches less than its optimum and some feet less than its maximum.

    the only thing i was wondering is if anyone could impart some simple explanation, as to why the "net" was there, and perhaps advise on the cheapest models that dont have this...

    thanks
     
  2. Neil in Bristol

    Neil in Bristol
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    Sounds like an extreme case of Chicken Wire (Screen Door) Effect. This is inherent in the projector and is caused by the structure of the LCD panel.

    Older projectors such as the Sharp XV-C1E are particularly bad in this respect. Defocusing may help to some extent.

    It would help if you told us what projector you bought. (Nobody is going to laugh - we've all made purchasing mistakes at one time or another!)

    You'll find that on most recent projectors that the problem is barely noticeable to the extent that it's effectively non existent.
     
  3. splnter

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    Hi, I used to have a Sharp xv315 p... I thought it was the dogs.. lol

    But i soon got the hump with it as the Chicken Wire effect was so bad .. I never really used it. Anything over 60" was bad. :)
     
  4. Shadow Jam

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    well it was the "mega Pro games Projector" -.-

    i got it from amazon, where they didnt list the technical specks, and after seeing it was half the price of all the others that was where i was tempted, then i read the 2 reviews both saying how great it was and how it was just as good as one double the price...


    well i bought it without ever really looking at the specs... very silly i know... at least i can return it - my postage...
     
  5. Anim

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    Ive just had a quick scan on the net (google) for this and unfortunatly other peoples responses wern't to favourable.

    Infact I dont think its LCD, more like some kind of magnifying glass???


    PHP:
        Compatible with all consoles and AV devices such as x-boxPSX2GCubeDreamcastDVD playeretc....
        * 
    Magnify up to 80".
        * Support AV or S-video input.
        * Built in stereo sound amplifier and mono speaker (stereo via headphones).
        * Comes with a remote controller
        * Comes with a multi-voltage A/C adapter : 100-240V
        * It is not a professional unit - please don't expect its quality is as good as the high-end projectors!
        * Cheap replacement bulbs, around £10!

    Specification

        * Power Input: DC 12V 5A
        * The Life of Light: 1000H
        * Luminous Flux: 200~300IM
        * Sound: <30db
        * Brightness Uniformity: 75%
        * S - Video Input
        * Definition: 480 X 234
        * Stereo Earphone Output
        * Projective Dimension: 12~80inch
        * Can Upright Laid
        * Projective Distance: 0.6~5M
        * The Image Can Overturned
        * Best Projective Dimension: 48inch
        * All over Remote Control =Volume / Brightness / Contrast
        * Continuous Working Time: 8H / Chroma Can Digital Adjust
        * NTSC/PAL System Auto Switch
        * Adjustment On Screen Display
        * Outlook Size: 240 X 220 X 105mm
        * Net Weight: 950g
     
  6. dunamis

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    You might want to see if you can return it and get a refund. How long has it been since you purchased it?

    dunamis
     
  7. GrahamM

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    Resolution: 480 X 234 :eek:
     
  8. Shadow Jam

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    yeah as i said i found out afterwards....

    i think its just a lesson you learn though.

    i appreciate now that if you want a home cinema you need to pay properly for it...

    i got one small question.... the one i was planning on changing to is the sanyo z1.

    I heard its quite good (though the lamp life can be dodgy)

    the only problem is im planning on setting it up in my bedroom which is only 3 meters deep. it said that this would give about a 6 foot wide projection. The only thing i was worrying about is that i would be viewing it from about 1.5 meters away, and was just wondering if anyone could answer how strong the chicken wire effect would be.
     
  9. Neil in Bristol

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    The Z1 would be a good entry-level unit, assuming you can pick one up for about £200, and you're happy about buying secondhand. Bear in mind that the lamps are expensive to replace.

    What's your budget? You can pick up a pretty decent projector new for £400-£500 from Dabs.
     
  10. sainthalo

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    Hi there, return the one from Amazon asap - if you take too much time it will be harder to return it and it sounds rotten. Let us know your budget and what you will use it for and we can help you find an appropriate projector. dont be embarrassed to say anything on here, nobody will laugh except for perhaps the village idiot (if we have one) :D
     
  11. Shadow Jam

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    my budget is about £500....since i only earn £150 a week...

    i was interested in a z1 fro sale on this site for £310, lamp 500 hours old, includes delivery...

    i wouldnt mind replacing a bulb i guess, since thats in the future, and if i dont need to spend money now its not like i need to spend money at all...

    i have returned the one from amazon, or at least told amazon im returning it. i still need to post it.

    my primary use will be to watch films on it (anime aswell). i guess it would be nice to be able to tune it upto a tv for the occasional film, but thats not that important...

    an0other small question i was wondering, is if i wanted to watch tv through it how would i do that... can i just connect an arial to the pj or would i have to have a tv connected to it (waste of space if your not going to use the tv...)

    i was gonna get a freeview box, so again, can that connect straight to the pj, or would it need to run through a tv?
     
  12. sainthalo

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    If you have £500 budget you can think about:

    Toshiba ET1
    Epson TW10H

    If you are happy to import from Germany you can have a look at the import thread and effectively your budget will get you a better projector.

    If you go secondhand you will get better models obviously - any specific models feel free to PM me or post here.
     
  13. DEANO-B

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    A brand spanking new Tosh ET1 will cost £380 inc of VAT & p&p with a 2 year warranty is much, much, much better than a Panny 100/200!!
     
  14. sainthalo

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    Where is it that price including VAT?

    That is a good price.
     
  15. Shadow Jam

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    on pjcentral it says there is a sanyo Z1* and a sanyo Z1x

    are they 2 different projectors, or is one just like a slightly newer version?
     
  16. DEANO-B

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    I'm using it now as my backup PJ (damn Panasonic!! :mad: ). Think the company is called Oyyy. co.uk . Cracking machine for the cash!!! :thumbsup:
     
  17. summat

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    A freeview box will be the easiest way to watch TV, presumably they'll have a SCART socket on the back to allow you to hook up a S-Video feed to the PJ (should be achievable for the most basic of Freeviews / PJs); DVD - similar, you should be able to achieve reasonable results very easily.

    Possibly, in future, look towards RGB or Component video connectivity - but for now keep it simple.
     
  18. Shadow Jam

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    the most important thing to me is the lack fo screen door.... tell me a nice cheap lcd pj with none and i will buy it right now :p
     
  19. CAS FAN

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    I can definately recommend the Epson TW-10h for an entry level PJ. It's got a short throw lens, scales well, has good blacks (800:1 contrast) for the price and is pretty bright too 1200 lumins IIRC.

    I sold mine to my parents when I upgraded to a Sanyo Z3 and they use it a lot for movies and are very happy with the quality. Mine cost me about £550 around a year ago and they seem to have held their price well. Not sure where the cheapest is but Ivojo have them for £535.80 here.

    Another good point is that the bulb lasts up to 4000 hours in low lamp mode and they are one of the cheapest bulbs to replace (around £140 ish).

    Screen door is visible if you are too close (but that's always going to be more of a problem with 480p panels) but if you sit a good distance back (say over 3 meters back for a 6 ft wide screen) then it vanishes.
     
  20. Neil in Bristol

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    Screen door effect is one of the things that improves as your budget increases, but the nature of LCD panels means it's always visible to some extent if you get close enough to the screen.

    However, it becomes effectively invisible on all of the projectors recommended here if you sit far enough back. On a budget projector you may have to sit twice the screen width away for the effect to disappear.

    I don't know what your projector was like, but I've tried to make a couple of pics to show you how much improvement you might be able to expect.

    The first one was more-or-less what I saw on projectors about 6 or 7 years ago (maybe the one you bought was like this?) and the second pic represents about the worst case you might see nowadays.

    Comments from forum regulars on whether I've got the images are about right would be useful!
     

    Attached Files:

  21. CAS FAN

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    That's a nice compasison above which highlights the problem well.

    Just to add to this, the main factor in SDE is the resolution of the panels. If you have standard definition panels (480p) then the pixels are larger and therefore more visable. 720p panels have much smaller pixels and SDE is only really visable on my Z3 if I get pretty close to the screen. I sit around 2 1/2 m back from a 7ft wide screen (which is a bir close really but is good for me) and I get no SDE from the Z3 at all at that range. In contrast the SDE on the Epson was visable at this range, but even then it wasn't that bad and if i'd have been another couple of feet back then i'm sure it would have disapeared.
     
  22. gingercat

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    Hmmm, I thought SDE was related to the distance between the pixels, not the pixel size. You can have low res, huge pixels, but if they're close together, you won't notice the screen door. Hence less SDE in the new D5 panels, same resolution, but the pixels are closer together.
     
  23. Shadow Jam

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    mmm well thats the thing... this is for a small sized bedroom, so my projector will be running from 3 meters and i will be sitting 2 meters away. I want a 6ft screen aswell, which is why the z1 interested me, as it gave that...

    my screen door was difficult to remember, having only watched about 3 hours worth of dvd on it, but it was probably inbetween those 2 pictures. i cant say i would particularly mind the picture on the right, but if it was a close up of a characters face or something else pale i dont know how it would seem...
     
  24. CAS FAN

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    When comparing a 480p panel to a 720p panel the pixels and the gaps between them are smaller on the 720p panel. It's like the whole thing has been scaled out. It is the gaps in between that cause SDE but generally the higher the resolution the smaller these gaps are. Yes the new panels are more densly packed and this naturally reduces SDE as the gaps are smaller. The SDE on my 720p Sanyo is much less than on my old 480p Epson.


    The picture on my Z3 looks much, much better than the 2nd picture shown from 2 meters and even the Epson looked better than that from that range. If you are around 2 1/2 m - 3m back from the screen then SDE is practically invisible on the Z3.
     
  25. Neil in Bristol

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    IMHO, screen door always looks better on close-up shots of faces etc.

    Sitting 2m back from a screen that's 6ft wide (180cm) is probably too close. You're going to see some screen door from that distance on the majority of sub £1000 projectors.

    Also, if you're watching films, you might find that a 6ft image is too big to watch from that distance - you'll end up having to move your head from side-to-side to watch the action!

    In normal viewing conditions, screen door is effectively a non-issue nowadays, but to be on the safe side, I'd suggest getting a demo first, either from a retailer or a fellow forum member.
     
  26. Shadow Jam

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    well im rearanging my room, to hopefully get an extra meter of space....

    the z3 sounds very nice, but i hear it has problems with colour (some people were complaining about predator mode) and im sure its much more expensive.
     
  27. Supersonic

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    You're at the start of a long journey when it comes to getting pj information and making up your mind!

    I have a Z3 and can say I've had no problems with colour/predator or screen door / chicken wire for that matter. I have a 7 feet wide screen and sit 3.5 meters away, but to see the pixel structure you have to get right up close.

    I'd suggest you check out the models suggested above, as they're in your stated budget, and then a) check the 'throw ratio', i.e. work out what size the picture would be from the position in your room where you expect to site the pj. You'll then know how big or small the picture can be, using the pj's zoom and you can try different sizes of picture to see how good/bad the screen door effect is. As people's perception of these things differs, only you can tell if it's acceptable to you - the seating distance recommendations you'll see in the forums are a good starting point but plenty of people sit closer or further back than for example "2x screen size away".

    Also, get a demo before you part with your money and if you're happy with your chosen model, stick to your guns and don't get tempted into a more expensive purchase if budget is to be stuck to - because at the price level you're looking at, another (say) £200 - £300 will definitely make a significant, noticeable difference to the picture you'd see. If you take a look at a few first and mull it all over you can decide if you want to wait and save up that extra cash. It would be terrible to get a unit home and be disappointed and £500 is still a lot of money - at least to me anyway!

    Good luck!
     
  28. Shadow Jam

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    how much are all the sanyo z models, new and second hand? (i knwoy uo probably dont get z4 second hand yet...)
     
  29. JiveTalker

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  30. Shadow Jam

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    ok i chucked out one of my beds (i had 2... dont ask) so now i will be sitting from 3 meters, the same distance as my projector.... Doorscreen shouldnt be to bad from there hopefully...

    sort of off topic but why are the bulbs so expensive? i mean i get they are special and everything but is there actually some special technology that makes them cost hundreds, or is it just them charging what they know we will pay?
     

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