msrhedges
Novice Member
I have been into audio and electronics for 35 years. I did own one of the first generation CD players back in 1983 whilst at the same time I had a B&O linear tracking (DTL Logic) Beogram 4002 record deck (manufactured between 1974-1980) with production batch selected MMC4000 cartridge. The cartridge tracked at 1 gram. I can remember listening to Pink Floyd - Meddle over and over again I was 23 at the time. I also went through a very expensive valve period 20 years later using 300B amplifiers and matching the valves with a AVO MKIV. I built my own very high efficiency transmission line loudspeakers with ATC drive units to work with valve amplification. That's a a long story and bit of background really. I still have the Beogram, Transmission line speakers and valve tester.
In the last 7 years (overlaps with valve amplification) I have been using a Tag Mclaren AV32R-BP192, DVD32FLR, 100x5R and 250x3R. My main speaker system now comprises of Monitor Audio PL300, PLC150, RXFX for the side, GS10 for rear and a GXW15 subwoofer. I also have another system on my workstation using Monitor Audio PL100, Audiolab 8000C, TagMclaren 60P and Echo Layla 3G.
I know that not everybody may agree with me on the following but this is where I have ended up after a lot of head scratching and using my finances carefully.
Technology has moved on a lot since Tag developed their equipment, it is now possible to buy more complex and powerful DSP's / DAC's for significantly less money. So therefore to get high performance equipment it does not necessarily mean that you have to spend shed loads of money as long as the design is implemented to the highest technical standard.
I have been in a state of indecision over a replacement for the processor and DVD player for some time. For Blu-ray playback I have been temporarily using full rate DTS over SPDIFF which was a very good interim solution, this maximised the capability of the AV32R 5.1 sound. I also had an HDMI switch box which my family hated. I never had so many complaints and have to admit that the system tended to be over complex.
I do think that the high quality amplification and speakers make huge differences to a system. Cables can however be debated. I use middle of the range Japanese Canare RCA interconnects made by Mark Grant Cables for all RCA connections, a pointer that I was given by forum member GrahamMG in 2004. For the main passive PL300 loudspeakers I use Audioquest Midnight and Belden 5000UP for everything else.
The 250x3R really is a masterpiece of amplification I cannot praise it enough, it is basically 3 Tag mono blocks in one chassis. Audiolab have now brought out the 8200MB mono blocks, they are very similar to the original Tag and come at a very competitive price, brilliant for the money. Some of you may not believe me but I actually think that the TagMclaren 60P sounds better than my 100x5R, I was shocked when I discovered this, a very good friend of mine bought the 8200CD and I tried it whilst my main loudspeakers were running on the 100x5R, he had a 60P and we swapped it over on my system ....... that was when I bought the 250x3R which is the best amplifier that I have ever had period, this amplifier grips drive units in a Vulcan mind meld and has the uncanny ability to provide detail in the quieter parts of a track. (Note : I like an uncoloured sound without an overly forward mid range).
The first change that I made was to buy the Audiolab 8200CD which for the price is an amazing CD player easily beating the DVD32FLR for CD playback. It uses a Sabre 32-bit audio DAC from ESS Technology. You also get the benefit of additional digital inputs and some interesting filters. In this setup my primary stereo for "music listening" DAC's are no longer located in the processor. In addition I use the USB input to listen to high resolution music at 24bit 96Khz with Foobar 2000. Which works very well. Linn's studio master of Bob Marley - Legend or Claire Martin - Perfect Alibi are a good example.
The second change was the Audiolab 8200T tuner I wanted to listen to radio 4 on FM, enough said.
The third change and the one that concerned me the most and was to the Audiolab 8200AP processor. I had to make a decision over additional functions that I would hardly ever use and ease of use for the family. The display on the Audiolab is not so nice when compared to the Tag but very bright and easily readable at a distance as it is OLED. In addition the setup menu only works over composite (CVBS) video, you can do some setup directly on the main display as well by using Q-SET. I used to buy equipment with all the bells and whistles and then never used half of it. My AV32r was in setup mode only when I wanted to make changes otherwise never used.
Codecs
As Blu-ray players are required to decode all of the major high rate audio standards (DTS Master HD etc) it does not necessarily make sense to include these in the processor as well. I therefore completely agree with Audiolab's position in not putting them into the 8200AP as I do not see the point in buying them twice. This simplifies the system and reduces the cost. The Blu-ray player then decodes (un-zips as I understand it) the high rate formats into LPCM which is sent to the 8200AP over HDMI. There's no difference in quality and so far I have had no problems with this system, it works seamlessly further reinforcing the concept.
Sound Quality
7.1 - I elected to go for the Panasonic BDT220EB Blu-ray player the result was spectacular in comparison with full rate DTS. Titles with DTS-HD Master 7.1 worked as you would expect and with DTS-HD Master 5.1 the rear channels worked as well, they may be copies of the side speakers though. I did use an older Blu-ray player and that did not fire up the rear channels leaving you with 5.1 utilising the side speakers and not the rear. The DAC's in the processor may not be as good as those in the CD player but they are providing very good sound indeed for movies and TV.
Stereo - The sound quality from the CD player in direct mode is excellent as it and the analogue inputs can all operate in full bypass. Therefore using the analogue inputs of the processor means that it is effectively an analogue preamp.
Picture Quality
The picture quality on my pioneer LX5090 plasma is brilliant. I have no issues here. HDMI Pass through is not as far as I can see affecting quality.
Build Quality
You could argue that the case construction is better than the Tag AV32r. I am not sure about the internals as I have not removed the cover.
Operation
The 8200AP worked straight out of the box and has not required much setup, it is in its essence very straight forward to use. The setup that I did carry out was to adjust the loudspeaker distances and output levels with a sound meter and select the surrond modes I wanted to use for TV (Freesat). It looks like all inputs can be renamed with a 7 digit character string I will do this when I have fianalised my system.
Niggles
For some reason Audiolab have used the same IR codes as the some of the channels on 100x5r and 250x3r. For instance selecting HDMI 1 turns one of the 100x5r channels off, pressing again turns it back on. I would hope that Audiolab fix this in a firmware update as other people with Tag amps my take this route. I wonder if it would require a remote control update as well.
I have had to keep my HDMI splitter enabling me to send video output to my projector as well as my TV it would have been nice to have had two HDMI outputs.
Double height text is available on the CD player it would have been good to have seen it in the processor for displaying volume etc. If the function is there I can't find it.
Conclusion
I am very happy with the 8200AP as a replacement for the AV32r BP192. At the end of the day I am an audiophile and so I may have compromised with the high end competition feature list but not as far as I believe on sound quality. I have in this write up deliberately not discussed the psychoacoustics of sound. What I can say is that I am now in the 21st century (HDMI etc) my family is happy and I am happy with the SOUND Quality. Yes there are niggles but I can live with them. I also believe that the 8200AP and 8200CD perform significantly above their pay grade.
Postscript
I have contacted Audiolab about my niggles... they say that the 8200AP has alternate codes for HDMI1 and 2 and the remaining codes will be added in a Firmware upgrade. These codes can be used with a programmable remote. I will use my Tablet S and have asked Audiolab for the details. I will post them here when I get them.
Double height text is also possible in a firmware upgrade and Audiolab are awaiting approval from IAG for this.
In the last 7 years (overlaps with valve amplification) I have been using a Tag Mclaren AV32R-BP192, DVD32FLR, 100x5R and 250x3R. My main speaker system now comprises of Monitor Audio PL300, PLC150, RXFX for the side, GS10 for rear and a GXW15 subwoofer. I also have another system on my workstation using Monitor Audio PL100, Audiolab 8000C, TagMclaren 60P and Echo Layla 3G.
I know that not everybody may agree with me on the following but this is where I have ended up after a lot of head scratching and using my finances carefully.
Technology has moved on a lot since Tag developed their equipment, it is now possible to buy more complex and powerful DSP's / DAC's for significantly less money. So therefore to get high performance equipment it does not necessarily mean that you have to spend shed loads of money as long as the design is implemented to the highest technical standard.
I have been in a state of indecision over a replacement for the processor and DVD player for some time. For Blu-ray playback I have been temporarily using full rate DTS over SPDIFF which was a very good interim solution, this maximised the capability of the AV32R 5.1 sound. I also had an HDMI switch box which my family hated. I never had so many complaints and have to admit that the system tended to be over complex.
I do think that the high quality amplification and speakers make huge differences to a system. Cables can however be debated. I use middle of the range Japanese Canare RCA interconnects made by Mark Grant Cables for all RCA connections, a pointer that I was given by forum member GrahamMG in 2004. For the main passive PL300 loudspeakers I use Audioquest Midnight and Belden 5000UP for everything else.
The 250x3R really is a masterpiece of amplification I cannot praise it enough, it is basically 3 Tag mono blocks in one chassis. Audiolab have now brought out the 8200MB mono blocks, they are very similar to the original Tag and come at a very competitive price, brilliant for the money. Some of you may not believe me but I actually think that the TagMclaren 60P sounds better than my 100x5R, I was shocked when I discovered this, a very good friend of mine bought the 8200CD and I tried it whilst my main loudspeakers were running on the 100x5R, he had a 60P and we swapped it over on my system ....... that was when I bought the 250x3R which is the best amplifier that I have ever had period, this amplifier grips drive units in a Vulcan mind meld and has the uncanny ability to provide detail in the quieter parts of a track. (Note : I like an uncoloured sound without an overly forward mid range).
The first change that I made was to buy the Audiolab 8200CD which for the price is an amazing CD player easily beating the DVD32FLR for CD playback. It uses a Sabre 32-bit audio DAC from ESS Technology. You also get the benefit of additional digital inputs and some interesting filters. In this setup my primary stereo for "music listening" DAC's are no longer located in the processor. In addition I use the USB input to listen to high resolution music at 24bit 96Khz with Foobar 2000. Which works very well. Linn's studio master of Bob Marley - Legend or Claire Martin - Perfect Alibi are a good example.
The second change was the Audiolab 8200T tuner I wanted to listen to radio 4 on FM, enough said.
The third change and the one that concerned me the most and was to the Audiolab 8200AP processor. I had to make a decision over additional functions that I would hardly ever use and ease of use for the family. The display on the Audiolab is not so nice when compared to the Tag but very bright and easily readable at a distance as it is OLED. In addition the setup menu only works over composite (CVBS) video, you can do some setup directly on the main display as well by using Q-SET. I used to buy equipment with all the bells and whistles and then never used half of it. My AV32r was in setup mode only when I wanted to make changes otherwise never used.
Codecs
As Blu-ray players are required to decode all of the major high rate audio standards (DTS Master HD etc) it does not necessarily make sense to include these in the processor as well. I therefore completely agree with Audiolab's position in not putting them into the 8200AP as I do not see the point in buying them twice. This simplifies the system and reduces the cost. The Blu-ray player then decodes (un-zips as I understand it) the high rate formats into LPCM which is sent to the 8200AP over HDMI. There's no difference in quality and so far I have had no problems with this system, it works seamlessly further reinforcing the concept.
Sound Quality
7.1 - I elected to go for the Panasonic BDT220EB Blu-ray player the result was spectacular in comparison with full rate DTS. Titles with DTS-HD Master 7.1 worked as you would expect and with DTS-HD Master 5.1 the rear channels worked as well, they may be copies of the side speakers though. I did use an older Blu-ray player and that did not fire up the rear channels leaving you with 5.1 utilising the side speakers and not the rear. The DAC's in the processor may not be as good as those in the CD player but they are providing very good sound indeed for movies and TV.
Stereo - The sound quality from the CD player in direct mode is excellent as it and the analogue inputs can all operate in full bypass. Therefore using the analogue inputs of the processor means that it is effectively an analogue preamp.
Picture Quality
The picture quality on my pioneer LX5090 plasma is brilliant. I have no issues here. HDMI Pass through is not as far as I can see affecting quality.
Build Quality
You could argue that the case construction is better than the Tag AV32r. I am not sure about the internals as I have not removed the cover.
Operation
The 8200AP worked straight out of the box and has not required much setup, it is in its essence very straight forward to use. The setup that I did carry out was to adjust the loudspeaker distances and output levels with a sound meter and select the surrond modes I wanted to use for TV (Freesat). It looks like all inputs can be renamed with a 7 digit character string I will do this when I have fianalised my system.
Niggles
For some reason Audiolab have used the same IR codes as the some of the channels on 100x5r and 250x3r. For instance selecting HDMI 1 turns one of the 100x5r channels off, pressing again turns it back on. I would hope that Audiolab fix this in a firmware update as other people with Tag amps my take this route. I wonder if it would require a remote control update as well.
I have had to keep my HDMI splitter enabling me to send video output to my projector as well as my TV it would have been nice to have had two HDMI outputs.
Double height text is available on the CD player it would have been good to have seen it in the processor for displaying volume etc. If the function is there I can't find it.
Conclusion
I am very happy with the 8200AP as a replacement for the AV32r BP192. At the end of the day I am an audiophile and so I may have compromised with the high end competition feature list but not as far as I believe on sound quality. I have in this write up deliberately not discussed the psychoacoustics of sound. What I can say is that I am now in the 21st century (HDMI etc) my family is happy and I am happy with the SOUND Quality. Yes there are niggles but I can live with them. I also believe that the 8200AP and 8200CD perform significantly above their pay grade.
Postscript
I have contacted Audiolab about my niggles... they say that the 8200AP has alternate codes for HDMI1 and 2 and the remaining codes will be added in a Firmware upgrade. These codes can be used with a programmable remote. I will use my Tablet S and have asked Audiolab for the details. I will post them here when I get them.
Double height text is also possible in a firmware upgrade and Audiolab are awaiting approval from IAG for this.
