A few questions before I start spending (too much...)

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Good morning,
I'm in the fortunate position of finally having a room I can dedicate to home cinema use.
It's original purpose according to the sales brochure for the house was as a dining room, but at 3.15m deep and 2.75m wide not including the boxed in central heating pipes) it wouldn't hold much of a table.
So since moving in a couple of years ago it's become a sort of snug, ideal for watching films and I've persuaded the relevant authorities that it would make an excellent dedicated cinema room, and she's agreed !
We have a lounge that we use for watching TV/having people round etc so this room doesn't need to compromise for other uses.
Basically I have a blank sheet of paper (but not a blank chequebook) and I want to try and get it right first time if possible.

I have already ordered a Sony 77" AG9 which is coming on Friday which I have mocked up on the back wall using a sheet.
I intend to build a false wall around the TV to allow it to sit as flush as possible and hid any wiring for the front speakers I want to wall mount
My existing speakers are some old Tannoys connected up to a Sony STR-DN1000.

I've spent the last few days searching through these forums looking for ideas and advice but would like some input and guidance if you wouldn't mind.
Obviously the room is rather small but I can't alter that, although I've moved the sofa away from the back wall now which hasn't made the viewing of the current 50" Sony uncomfortable. We now sit about seven feet from the screen.

So now I want to look at speaker choice and because of the size of the room I like the look of the Kef T series with 301's up front and 101's in the rear.
I think putting 101's up front might look a little small next to such a large tv.
I see these are a bit long in the tooth now but still get good reviews but I don't know whether I should be looking at a 5.1.2 or 7.1 set up.
I like the idea of having Atmos but that would mean a new amp although I've seen some reasonably priced packages advertised.
Putting speakers in the ceiling won't cause any matrimonial issues, especially if I wait until she's at work to do it, but I'd like to get any wiring sorted out while I'm constructing the false wall rather than later on.
In a small room such as this would too many speakers just not be worth the effort or will I benefit from Atmos?

Sorry for the ramble but there's obviously a lot of knowledge on this site and I'd really like some advice before I make expensive mistakes if possible.
So:

1) 5.1.2 or 7.1 or keep my existing amp and stay with 5.1
2) Kef T series or should I look elsewhere?
3 )Recommendations for speaker cables.
4) Any other advice you could offer me in setting up my small home cinema room please.

I have spent a good while trailing through the forums looking for answers before posting this but it's still a rather large step into the unknown for me.

Many thanks in advance of any help you can give me,
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210219_101332.jpg
    IMG_20210219_101332.jpg
    109.5 KB · Views: 60
  • IMG_20210219_101413.jpg
    IMG_20210219_101413.jpg
    174.1 KB · Views: 55
  • plan1.png
    plan1.png
    9.6 KB · Views: 53

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Hi welcome to the forum.

1) 5.1.2 or 7.1 or keep my existing amp and stay with 5.1

The room is quite narrow. Personally I would start with a 5.1 setup, but buy a receiver (AVR) that is is capable of running 9 channels "out of the box". The Denon you mention above is the lowest model in their range that can do this.

This receiver will allow expansion to do either a 5.1.2, 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 - all Atmos based.

More details & review here:


This advice is based on personal experience. I quickly upgraded from a 7 channel to 11 channel receiver!

Have a look here:


Further down the page it shows the recommended speaker positions for the various Dolby Atmos configurations. Using this as a guide, will help you decide if you want to go "all in at once" or build your system in stages.
2) Kef T series or should I look elsewhere?

Might be worth considering in wall speakers (assuming you don't mind cutting holes in the walls).

Other on wall speakers are Monitor Audio Apex series. A well liked series from forum members.


Generally, I'd avoid most of the matching subs that you get in speaker package deals. Buy it without the sub. You'll get better subs for less money. For example the subwoofer in the Apex range costs ยฃ1000 on it's own. BK, Rel, SVS are just 3 subwoofer brands that are popular on the forum & offer good bang for buck.

3 )Recommendations for speaker cables.

Don't need to spend a fortune on cable. I'd go for any good quality pure copper core wire like this:

Amazon product
You can get it in smaller lengths/reels.

As I'm sure you're finding the possibilities are only bound by one's budget, so maybe set yourself one and go from there!

Good luck
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Thank you for the reply Jester.
In wall speakers are certainly an option at the moment, I'm putting in a false wall for the TV so can build speakers in to that, but I couldn't really see any that wouldn't be over budget or too large for the room. I'm certainly happy to take suggestions.
I'd rather keep the rears wall mounted but don't mind cutting out for atmos speakers in the ceiling while I'm sorting the room out to get the immersive sound I'm hoping to achieve.
Good advice on the sub, I'll see if I can use that to get a better price. I'm sure my Tannoy sub will do to begin with.
I've found some Van Damme 2.5mm speaker cable within my budget which seems decent quality.
I've printed off the Dolby guides and the cinema-tools speaker layout guide to give me some ideas.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Did you have an overall budget in mind? It's hard to recommend speakers without one really. In an ideal world, you should also audition any speakers prior to.purchase. Although I appreciate this is not currently possible.

I'd rather keep the rears wall mounted but don't mind cutting out for atmos speakers in the ceiling while I'm sorting the room out to get the immersive sound I'm hoping to achieve.

Like I said previously, you can build the system gradually in terms of adding speakers.

If your budget won't allow you to buy all the speakers at once, perhaps concentrate on getting a good set of 3 speakers for the front channels (LCR). you can then add the others later, when funds have been replenished somewhat.

Good idea to use your current sub! To this end, you may even be able to re-purpose the surround speakers from your current set up, as a temporary meassure.

A good centre speaker (well positioned) is probably the most important speaker of all. Around 80% of the audio you hear goes through the centre speaker, so don't skimp on this! It's also recommended to keep the LCR speakers from the same brand & range. This ensures the same tonality across the front sound stage. Surrounds don't have to be same brand as front 3.

As long as you do cable runs during initial room prep. You can add the atmos speakers when budget allows. In ceiling is definitely the preferred choice for atmos. Likewise 4 atmos speakers (if you can get optimum placement) is better than 2. But 2 is better than none!

If you look on the dolby guides, you'll see where that the surround speakers should be placed in relation to the MLP (Main Listening Position) ideally. They can be wall mounted though.

5.1.4 Overhead Speaker Placement (recommended):

5-1-4.png


It's worth noting, that your surround speakers should positioned at ear level (when seated), if implementing an atmos configuration. This is to allow for adequate separation of sound.
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Excellent, thank you for that.
I think I would prefer to go straight to a 5.1.2 if the room will allow it.
I suppose my budget for speakers and amp would ideally be below ยฃ3k.
LCR speakers mounted in the false wall would look great if I can find decent ones within budget but I do also like the look of the Kef T series.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Excellent, thank you for that.
I think I would prefer to go straight to a 5.1.2 if the room will allow it.

Can definitely do 5.1.2 in your room. Here's the layout for that:

5.1.2 Atmos Guide.jpg


I would still run cable for the additional 2 ceiling speakers - so you can upgrade to 5.1.4 in future! ๐Ÿ˜‰

I suppose my budget for speakers and amp would ideally be below ยฃ3k

Would you be looking to get new gear or are you happy with 2nd hand?

You should be able to get a good setup for that budget.

LCR speakers mounted in the false wall would look great if I can find decent ones within budget but I do also like the look of the Kef T series.

Have a look at the Monitor Audio range of in-wall speakers. I don't have any personal experience of their in wall stuff, but I do use their Silver 100's, C350 & FX's in my setup. I'm really pleased with the sound.


I'm sure if you search the forum, you'll find some opinions on them. The in ceiling atmos speakers can be had for around ยฃ100. I'd probably spend a little more & get some that have directionally adjustable tweeters.

I should stress the dolby recommended speaker placement is just that - a recommendation. Whilst it's best to adhere to it if possible, your AVR has calibration/room correction software (Denon uses Audessey), that does a good job at compensating if you cannot get the exact speaker placement/angles etc.
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Many thanks Jester, today's job will be researching and pricing in-wall speakers.
I do like some of the larger designs but would big front speakers overwhelm such a small room?
 

ChuckMountain

Distinguished Member
Have a look at the Monitor Audio range of in-wall speakers. I don't have any personal experience of their in wall stuff, but I do use their Silver 100's, C350 & FX's in my setup. I'm really pleased with the sound.

I would second that too. I had a listen to the kef t series when I was swapping mine and they didnโ€™t do anything for me, quite disappointing really.

I then listened to some Monitor Audio Shadows and they were significantly better. Supposed to be comparable with their silver range but thinner. Unfortunately they have stopped making them but with you doing false wall I would look at their built in range.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Many thanks Jester, today's job will be researching and pricing in-wall speakers.
I do like some of the larger designs but would big front speakers overwhelm such a small room?
I think that Audessey will help in this regard as it will set trim levels of all the speakers. My room meassures 3m wide by 4.5. (TV on 3m wall) - only marginally bigger than your room. Not to mention my room is not a dedicated room either!. My silver 100's have an 8 inch bass driver and the sound in no way overwhelms the room.
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Well I'm leaning towards 3x In Wall Monitor Audio Cp-WT240LCRs for the front three coupled to a Denon X3700H and keep my existing Tannoy rears and sub woofer until I've saved a bit more dinner money up.
The Kef T series seem hard to get hold of at the moment.
Many thanks indeed for the advice.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Here's my Silver 100's. I sit 14ft from the screen. I'm currently using them on their own with just my stereo integrated amp (Audiolab 6000a), until my custom cabinet is built. They'll be spaced further apart eventually with the C350 Centre in between.

My stereo amp doesn't use any calibration & they sound fab.
 

Attachments

  • received_205128867964946.jpeg
    received_205128867964946.jpeg
    238.4 KB · Views: 40

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Well I'm leaning towards 3x In Wall Monitor Audio Cp-WT240LCRs for the front three coupled to a Denon X3700H and keep my existing Tannoy rears and sub woofer until I've saved a bit more dinner money up.
This is the route I'd take. Id add 2 (or 4! ๐Ÿ˜‰๐Ÿ˜‚) of these on atmos duties too. They have the directional tweeters. Handy if you can't get the ceiling position spot on.

 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Well I'm leaning towards 3x In Wall Monitor Audio Cp-WT240LCRs for the front three coupled to a Denon X3700H and keep my existing Tannoy rears and sub woofer until I've saved a bit more dinner money up.
The Kef T series seem hard to get hold of at the moment.
Many thanks indeed for the advice.

Any chance for the W250-LCR? Do you need those back box versions specifically?
 
Last edited:

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Any chance for the W250-LCR? Do you need those back box version specifically?
What would the advantages of that one be?
They'll be fitted in a new build false stud wall.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Well it would be a shame not to while my credit card is out....
Welcome to the club! Being an AV enthusiast is certainly an expensive hobby, both directly & indirectly.....

My last upgrade negotiations with SWMBO - resulted indirectly in acquiring this as part of the deal: ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚.... (Tbf he is cute and currently as Loud as my Home Theatre ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚).

FB_IMG_1613821496100.jpg
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
What would the advantages of that one be?
They'll be fitted in a new build false stud wall.

Larger drivers (5,25" vs 4"). But if you need the back box version then the Controlled Performance range is the way to go. Shame you didnยดt opt for projector + screen in that room. Would have gotten the center channel more optimally installed, vertically at same height with the mains behind at-screen.

Larger on-wall speakers than Kef T-serie is still option. Small room isnยดt issue if you have strong will and thick wallet.

Arendal 1961 Monitor and Centre would be good option, around 1200ยฃ for front three. 15cm depth.

 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Welcome to the club! Being an AV enthusiast is certainly an expensive hobby, both directly & indirectly.....

My last upgrade negotiations with SWMBO - resulted indirectly in acquiring this as part of the deal: ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚.... (Tbf he is cute and currently as Loud as my Home Theatre ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚).

.
It's all about negotiation isn't it !
My other half is getting the garden sorted to balance out my spending on home cinema.

Larger drivers (5,25" vs 4"). But if you need the back box version then the Controlled Performance range is the way to go. Shame you didnยดt opt for projector + screen in that room. Would have gotten the center channel more optimally installed, vertically at same height with the mains behind at-screen.

.
Originally I'd intended to go with the Optoma UST CinemaX projector in the room but decided in the end to go with a TV instead. I think because I will find myself in there watching stuff in the day time without the faff of having to darken the room and miss the daylight.
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
Well things have certainly got expensive around here recently !!
I went with the monitor audio cp-wt240's for the fronts, and very nice they are too!
I wanted to stay with Monitor Audio for the rest of the set up so have ordered Silver FXs for the rears and CP-CT380idc's for the Atmos coupled to a Denon 3700.
A small lock down project has drained my bank account completely.
I've built a false wall for the AG9 and front speakers to sit in and ran cables through the wall and ceiling for the other speakers.
I probably should have gone for something a bit smaller for the Atmos speakers, I didn't really appreciate the size of them until they arrived....
I'm just not sure of the ideal placement for them.
In the photos, although you can't see, there's a ceiling joist in line with the front left and right speakers running front to back. If I go wall side of the joist it puts the speaker rather close to the wall, if I go the other side of the joist they're out of line with the front speakers and inline with the arms of the sofa although won't the directionable tweeters compensate for this?
I really want to get the placement right first time if possible, I'm gonna be in trouble enough as it is with two 273mm holes in the ceiling without having them in the wrong place!!
As always thankyou for any advice you can give me before I start making holes.
Forgive the mess in the photos, it's a work in progress.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210316_084256.jpg
    IMG_20210316_084256.jpg
    99.7 KB · Views: 26
  • IMG_20210316_090120.jpg
    IMG_20210316_090120.jpg
    84 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_20210316_090140.jpg
    IMG_20210316_090140.jpg
    151.3 KB · Views: 26
  • IMG_20210316_084212.jpg
    IMG_20210316_084212.jpg
    150.5 KB · Views: 32

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Well things have certainly got expensive around here recently !!

Yep. I know that feeling mate! Room looks stonking though.

A small lock down project has drained my bank account completely.

Likewise ๐Ÿ˜‚ I also think an update of thread title is order. Can I suggest "A few questions..... Then I'll start spending too much!" Seems far more appropriate ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‰

I probably should have gone for something a bit smaller for the Atmos speakers, I didn't really appreciate the size of them until they arrived....
I'm just not sure of the ideal placement for them.
In the photos, although you can't see, there's a ceiling joist in line with the front left and right speakers running front to back. If I go wall side of the joist it puts the speaker rather close to the wall, if I go the other side of the joist they're out of line with the front speakers and inline with the arms of the sofa although won't the directionable tweeters compensate for this?

If the ceiling speakers are too large, is there no way to return them & exchange for smaller ones?

Did you stick with just the 2 Atmos speakers and a 5.1.2 configuration? Maybe cut a full size template of the speaker out of card and use blu tack to try different positions & see which looks best. This is what I did when working out what height yo mount my TV!

I'd go with in line with the sofa arms. (Assuming you're happy with how they look there). You should be able to check if you can get sufficient angle from the tweeters, so they are aimed at your seated MLP prior to actual install. As long as the atmos speakers are not positioned outside of the front L&R, you should be fine. Inline with or inside.

One other thing. I Also have the Silver FX on rear duties - great speakers BTW. When you mount them, make sure they are at least 30cm in from the corners. Ideally, you want them at seated ear height or just above. Start by setting the switch on each speaker (at the back) to 'dipole', but you can experiment with both dipole & bipole modes. The speakers are marked left & right. So make sure you mount the left on the left & right on the right, as you face the TV wall.

Oh & will you be painting the grills of you LCR to match the wall colour?

Now you just need to decide on a decent sub (once you're out of 'financial intensive care') ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜‰

Edit: I'm happy to advise on some choices of subs too - Always easier spending money when it isn't your own! ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‰๐Ÿ˜‰
 
Last edited:

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
It's not so much the physical size of them that worries me, they'll blend in to the ceiling once the grills are on but are they going to be too powerful for the rest of the speakers ?

I did decide to stick with 5.1.2 because it really is quite a small room at approx 3m sq.

Good advice on the Silver FX's , I'll keep them clear of the corners, and yes the front grills will be painted wall colour soon.

Thanks again for the help and advice.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
It's not so much the physical size of them that worries me, they'll blend in to the ceiling once the grills are on but are they going to be too powerful for the rest of the speakers ?
I'm sure Audessey calibration will do a good job at setting the speaker trims throughout the setup and give good overall balance.

After you've ran Audessey, you can adjust the calibrated trim (volume) levels of individual speakers manually if you find the atmos speakers overpowering. I don't think you will though, as atmos channel audio is generally quite discreet in nature.

Don't forget to make templates the same size as the ceiling speaker grilles. It's the easiest way to confirm which of your 2 possible positions you prefer. ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ

Careful when you spray the LCR grilles not to clog the holes with paint. My painting skills are atrocious - I'd be sending them off to a car body shop or the like tbh! Not suggesting yours are though, rather just to be aware/cautious ๐Ÿ˜€
 

gibbsy

Moderator
It's not so much the physical size of them that worries me, they'll blend in to the ceiling once the grills are on but are they going to be too powerful for the rest of the speakers ?
As above, Audyssey will set the levels of all speakers so no one speaker will over power the rest. You may find that to suit your personal taste and how you want the effects you may want to raise the levels by a dB or so. Just make sure you have the mic on a good tripod with a boom arm.

Amazon product
 

Mustang Mark

Standard Member
I was quite taken by surprise at the dimensions of the 380idcs, they're the size of a small kitchen bin!

I really appreciate the help though and I can't wait to finally sit back and enjoy a film.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Movies Podcast: Star Trek in 4K. Is the new boxset worth it?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Audeze introduces reference LCD-5 planar magnetic headphones
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Chord Electronics launches Anni desktop amplifier
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Roku announces new Streaming Stick 4K and OS 10.5
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
T+A announces high end 200 Series audio components
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Trinnov Altitude update adds new features
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom