A few noob questions on bi-amping etc

JemCollector

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Hi everyone,

First post so please go easy on me! Recently I brought my hifi stuff out from a ten year hibernation, put there as I was working abroad. I’ve got a Marantz PM6010se, a CD6000ose, a Systemdek e900II TT and Kef Concerto 2’s (which seem to be very rare nowadays from what I’ve seen). Anyway, I put it all back together and it sounded great, until...

...I found a fantastic offer online for some Kef R700’s which was too good to miss. It’s gone from there; I’ve now got a Roksan K3 amp, matching CD player, DAC and power amp, feeding the speakers with QED Genesis cable. Even shopping around it’s cost a pretty penny, but as I’m disabled with an incurable terminal illness, I figured why not? I’ve always enjoyed music, and it’s a hobby I can stick with as all of my other hobbies are not possible any more.

I digress (sorry!) - I’ve been reading a lot about bi-amping, and set it up last night for horizontal BA. It sounded slightly better than with single wire, but the amp got unusually warm. The int.amp was powering the mics and tweeters, the power amp on the woofers. I swapped it over to a vertical configuration, and it sounded noticeably better, much more powerful and the amp didn’t get anywhere near as warm, which I was happy with. I must confess that I still don’t understand how it works - the Left and Right from one amp feeding one speaker’s drivers as opposed to separate speakers), and unless I’m doing something wrong I’ll stick with it.

I’ve recently purchased a CA 851N which I’m awaiting delivery of. I’m really impressed with the K3 DAC and what a difference it makes but I’ve read that the DAC in the 851N is even better. If that’s the case I’ll use that and sell the K3 DAC.

Would someone mind explaining to me how vertical bi-amping works please? I’m sorry if it’s a question that’s been asked a million times before.

Thanks for taking the time to read my meanderings!
 
I've never bi-amped, only ever experimented with bi-wiring which proved pointless. If you feel the bi-amping is bringing rewards then stick with it. You may get some better advice from others on that particular subject. I do know that the R700s, just like my R300s thrive on power.

As for DACs some people can tell the difference in sound, personally I find clarity comes through with different DACs. The same DAC can sound or perform differently once they get to the analogue stage of the amp, this is certainly true of my two Marantz CD/SACD players. The more expensive SACD player is by far the better performer, clarity, depth and soundstage are all better on the higher spec'd model.

I find it easier to tell the difference between actual amps and in a recent audition much preferred the sound and overall grip that a Rega amp exerted on the R300s.

I'm sorry to hear of your illness and although I'm somewhat disabled it's not going to end my life. So I'll come to this on a disabled perspective. I get a lot of pain and I really love my music, more so since buying better kit dedicated to it. Although I do prefer listening through the main system using headphones is very relaxing. I can get down in a comfortable pressure easing posture in my ergonomic chair and not worry about being out of the perfect listening triangle.

Anyway take advice from those who know more about bi-amping but don't expect a night and day difference between DACs at this level, it will be more of a sound signature between the two different makes.
 
...I’ve been reading a lot about bi-amping, and set it up last night for horizontal BA. ...

So, you were using FOUR Amps (two Stereo Amps) correct? You were Bi-Amping and not simply Bi-Wiring?

Did you remove the JUMBER BAR between the speaker terminals? There is a flat metal bar connecting the speaker LF(+) and the HF(+) and of course between the LF(-) and the HF(-). For Bi-Amping that Jumper Bar ABSOLULTEY MUST be removed.

biwire2sm-jpg.277382

biamp1bsm-jpg.276096


Typically there is not a huge difference between standard amp connections and Bi-Amping. It works best if you already have the amps and can try it for the price of some extra wire.

But, for anyone considering attempting Bi-Amping by buying all new equipment, most of the time it is recommended that they simply buy one bigger better amp. Pre-Amps and Power Amps are not cheap, much more expensive than buying the equivalent Integrated Amp. As such, a Pre-Amp and Two Power Amps do not constitute high value. Even starting with a Integrated Amp and adding an additional Power Amp is not really cost effective unless you buy used or find an exceptional bargain.

But equally, if a person happens to have two Stereo Amps laying around, it is certainly worth trying. But it would only be rare cases where I would suggest investing any real money into it.

Steve/bluewizard
 
As I understand it, horizontal bi-amping uses one stereo amp per speaker is that right? If so I would probably only consider that route if I had a separate pre-amp and a pair of matching stereo power amps.

Given you seem to have one integrated and one power amp I would have thought vertical biamping (stereo integrated amp for HF and the power amp for LF if I've understood things) would be the better option.

Edit: Seems I've got the terms vertical and horizontal mixed up. Just though I'd mention it for anyone that finds this thread in the future!
 
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Firstly, I’d like to say thank you for your thoughts and replies.

To confirm - I’m using a stereo integrated and a matching stereo power amp (both Roksan K3).

However, following on from your replies and some further web research last night, it appears I’m doing something wrong. I found a thread where someone diagnosed that the original poster had put both L and R links to the power amp, which is what I’ve done. I’m hearing the same output from both speakers so I know I’ve done wrong.

So - in a Horizontal configuration, I had the int.amp feeding the HF on both speakers from the L and R speaker outputs, and the power amp doing the LF, with both pre-outs connected. I’m certain this correct. It did sound slightly better, bass more punchy and good ‘space ‘.

When I altered it to Vertical, I had the int.amp feeding both inputs of the L speaker and the power amp doing the same on the R. Both pre outs were connected to the power amp. Should I only connect the pre out R?

I still can’t figure out the technicalities of how this can work though - you have the int.amp giving a left and right output to one speaker and yet they’re supposed to operate only one stereo channel? I’m even more confused than ever.
 
Have you actually found a thread where anyone has done it using an one integrated and one power amp? I can't see a way you could do it unless using a separate pre-amp.
 
Timmy - I did, and it looks like, on reading it through again, that they were horizontally bi-amping ie; the integrated does the left and right HF’s, and the power amp does both LF’s. I think to avoid any more confusion (mostly that of myself) I’ll re-configure it that way. At least in that version I’ll get a true stereo path to each speaker.

Thanks again for all of your time and knowledge, I very much appreciate it.
 
I think you are trying to compare the normal bi-amping - ie one amp drives the HF and the other amp drives the LF with a version I havent heard of where one stereo amp drives one speaker in its entirity and the second amp drives the other speaker.

biamp2.jpg


If you had a pair of seperate stereo amps and a preamp then this is fairly simple to do as you take the left out of the preamp and put it into the left and right of the first amp and then take the right out of the preamp and put it into the left and right of the second amp as per the diagram above.

The issue you have is that you are using an integrated amp and therefore cannot get both its amplification units to output the same chanel. I cannot think of any way of fixing this without getting a pre-amp, if you had two integrated amps you could wire the source to each amp as above and then have to manually balance the volumes but as you've an integrated and a poweramp this isnt possible.
 
^ If both amps are the same, I guess this approach has the advantage that you can use the balance controls for balancing between LF and HF. Either way you are always going to be at the mercy of amp matching which is where amps designed specifically for this purpose have little gain adjustments somewhere (on the back probably). I have generally on seen such on professional amps.

I briefly tried the bi-amp mode in my AVR - it turned out the amps just were not matched closely enough despite all being on the same circuit board with the result that I could here a slight tonal tilt relative to normal use.

IMHO it more trouble than it is worth without some means of calibration and the chances of you getting as good sound are slim from just wiring stuff up and see what happens.

Of course I have heard bi-amping to very good effect on studio monitors and live sound etc, but in this case it was always active bi-amping and involving designed for purpose crossovers and amps.
 
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Hmm...I’m just getting more and more bemused by all this.

So my Roksan K3 integrated will have the L output to the HF of the L speaker, the R output to the HF of the R speaker, while the power amp (Roksan K3) feeds the LF’s of each respective speaker; this is what I understand Horizontal bi-amping is. The pre out from the integrated amp will use both L and R outputs to the power amp’s inputs. Am I correct here?

Above I’ve been talking about what I understand to be vertical BA, which as far as I can now tell, I need two power amps to facilitate. I’m not going to continue along that road.
 
Hmm...I’m just getting more and more bemused by all this.

So my Roksan K3 integrated will have the L output to the HF of the L speaker, the R output to the HF of the R speaker, while the power amp (Roksan K3) feeds the LF’s of each respective speaker; this is what I understand Horizontal bi-amping is. The pre out from the integrated amp will use both L and R outputs to the power amp’s inputs. Am I correct here?

Above I’ve been talking about what I understand to be vertical BA, which as far as I can now tell, I need two power amps to facilitate. I’m not going to continue along that road.

Yes that's right and as mentioned by someone previously, be sure to have removed the jumper bars/plates between the connections on the back of the speakers.

I did take a quick look at the Roksan manual earlier and this is they way the suggest you do it. There was no mention of the vertical bi-amping idea at all.
 
Timmy, thank you for that. I honestly do not know why I didn’t just look in the Roksan manuals myself instead of making a fool of myself on here! Typical Neanderthal man I suppose...

Anyway, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and for the knowledge you have imparted. I am now less stupider than I was before!

Now to rewire myspeakers as they were originally!

Thanks again guys.
 
Haha...you haven't made a fool of yourself and to be fair, the manual doesn't really go into any detail as far as I noticed. Always worth checking when unsure about stuff and I'm sure there will be others that might find some of the info in this thread beneficial at some point.
 
Timmy, thank you for that. I honestly do not know why I didn’t just look in the Roksan manuals myself instead of making a fool of myself on here! Typical Neanderthal man I suppose...

Anyway, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and for the knowledge you have imparted. I am now less stupider than I was before!

Now to rewire myspeakers as they were originally!

Thanks again guys.

hehehe, hi mate! just re-reading this again in its entirety and chuckling along to myself waiting to see where it had got to!!! :-D

As you know from the other thread, I'd looked into this before so was desperately jumping up and down with the answer like an excited school boy "please sir, please sir, me me me!!!) :rotfl:

If I've got it right then; K3 Integrated : left speaker out to the left speaker HF input, right speaker out to the right speaker HF input.
Connect an RCA cable from the Integrated's Pre Outputs, to the K3 Powers Inputs (so the full signal gets passed in parallel down to the power amp as well as out of the speaker terminals.
Connect power amp left speaker terminals to the left LF posts on the speaker, an do the same with the right.
Sorted!

Still don't know if this will knacker the HY Bypass though, as per other thread. TBC....:thumbsup:
 

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