A 2019 General Election Analysis

CommonSense

Active Member
Hmm..

Points of View, where the questions are selected by a fair minded panel of unbiased experts...

Err... no they aren't, they're selected by the producer, who has his own agenda or more likely that of their masters.
There's always an unbalanced selection of messages of mostly, "effusive praise" of programmes and a few of mild criticism, the latter voiced by someone in seemingly in their dotage.
Excuses are found to include clips of running TV series for promotional purposes.

The programme is a joke.
But the BBC can say that it gives the viewers an opportunity to voice their opinions (but only those which are deemed acceptable).

Nicola Sturgeon has said Scotland shouldn't be "imprisoned in the UK."

Hmm.. At the moment they're "imprisoned" by a disproportional number of benefits.

They've as much chance of leaving the UK as Catalonia leaving Spain.

The referendum wasn't "best of three."
I take it from your reply that you haven't contacted Points Of View. You don't know how the people who actually have done feel about their experience. The points you raised may or may well not be true but if you haven't tested the programme for yourself you are just sitting on the fence. No big deal, just a `point of order'.
 

CommonSense

Active Member
I see what you are saying but why would you want to do that?. What benefit is there in shutting yourself off from trading with other countries?. It is by opening up your market to other markets that you increase growth through a better use of resources, if someone else can make specific parts of a airplane better/cheaper than you that frees you up to move that labor and investment into areas that are more productive.
I've never said we should be self-sufficient or that we shouldn't have trade. My original point is that one of the main motivations for leaving the EU was independence and I asked: how much real independence is there in the world but particularly in the UK? From there I went on to define true independence as self-sufficiency, and the state of our country now is that we are not self-sufficient. In fact in that respect in the last 40 years we have lost many industries. One out of the several examples I previously quoted was UK car production and I have had some positive feedback on that. But here is a direct quote from Wikipedia and I call your attention particularly to `Volume car manufacturers' :
`The automotive industry in the United Kingdom is now best known for premium and sports car marques including Aston Martin, Bentley, Caterham Cars, Daimler, Jaguar, Lagonda, Land Rover, Lister Cars, Lotus, McLaren, MG, Mini, Morgan and Rolls-Royce. Volume car manufacturers with a major presence in the UK include Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Vauxhall Motors (subsidiary of Opel, subsidiary of the French automotive company Groupe PSA).[1] Commercial vehicle manufacturers active in the UK include Alexander Dennis, Ford, IBC Vehicles (owned by Groups PSA), Leyland Trucks (owned by Paccar) and London EV Company (owned by Geely).'

Is it any wonder that when I think of cars I think Japan or Far-East? And going on, is coming out of the EU going to make us more independent (apropos trade)? The whole trade arrangement now is very complex. I'm not arguing against the status quo in trade or against coming out of the EU. But consider just one example: what is now going to happen to the Nissan car plant in Sunderland? Self-sufficiency would make the situation much simpler.

Just one final side-point on another important issue. You mentioned `increase growth'. My opinion is that it is growth which has caused not only increasing carbon dioxide emissions but all sorts of other pollution and the only way to stop this increase is to scale back on energy-intensive living.
 

Pacifico

Banned
I've never said we should be self-sufficient or that we shouldn't have trade. My original point is that one of the main motivations for leaving the EU was independence and I asked: how much real independence is there in the world but particularly in the UK? From there I went on to define true independence as self-sufficiency, and the state of our country now is that we are not self-sufficient.


I disagree with your thesis. Independence is the ability to choose - we can choose to trade with the world or we can choose to be self sufficient, the point is that the direction of the economy is now in the hands of the British people - where it should be.


Is it any wonder that when I think of cars I think Japan or Far-East? And going on, is coming out of the EU going to make us more independent (apropos trade)? The whole trade arrangement now is very complex. I'm not arguing against the status quo in trade or against coming out of the EU. But consider just one example: what is now going to happen to the Nissan car plant in Sunderland? Self-sufficiency would make the situation much simpler.

Well with regard to volume car manufacturing I would just point out that when we entered the EU/EEC we had the largest car manufacturing plant in Europe at Dagenham employing 40,000 people with Ford producing 300,000 vehicles a year in the UK. Now after 40 years of EU membership Ford produce precisely zero vehicles in the UK, so I dont think that the argument that you need to remain in the EU to protect car manufacturing actually holds up.


Just one final side-point on another important issue. You mentioned `increase growth'. My opinion is that it is growth which has caused not only increasing carbon dioxide emissions but all sorts of other pollution and the only way to stop this increase is to scale back on energy-intensive living.

Well good luck with that. When even those advocating reducing our carbon footprint see no problem with flying into London from Los Angeles to attend a protest march then I think you are on a loser there.
 
I take it from your reply that you haven't contacted Points Of View. You don't know how the people who actually have done feel about their experience. The points you raised may or may well not be true but if you haven't tested the programme for yourself you are just sitting on the fence. No big deal, just a `point of order'.


Let's get a sense of reality here.

Points of View is a BBC "Show."
It's for entertainment only.
That's why it's been hosted by people who are comedians or just think they are from day one, (Barry Took)..

The fact that it's the BBC themselves who choose the letters etc., they present, takes any validity away.

The BBC once had a Points of View message board where they changed the format after ten years, so it was impossible for like minded people to criticise en block any more. As the standard of programmes fell the complaints were increasing, so they weren't having it.
I remember the host saying once that the messages received on the board, "weren't typical of those sent in by phone, letter, or e-mail to the programme."

Well "They would say that wouldn't they?"

You of course, can continue to believe that the BBC are fair minded and have no agenda.

Perhaps the government will now wade into them and cut the extravagancies and particularly the waste.

For the latter, they could start with Greg Wallace.
 

CommonSense

Active Member
Well with regard to volume car manufacturing I would just point out that when we entered the EU/EEC we had the largest car manufacturing plant in Europe at Dagenham employing 40,000 people with Ford producing 300,000 vehicles a year in the UK. Now after 40 years of EU membership Ford produce precisely zero vehicles in the UK, so I dont think that the argument that you need to remain in the EU to protect car manufacturing actually holds up.

Well good luck with that. When even those advocating reducing our carbon footprint see no problem with flying into London from Los Angeles to attend a protest march then I think you are on a loser there.
 

CommonSense

Active Member
Your point on car manufacturing: I agree with you but I never argued for staying in the EU. I suppose I'm playing devil's advocate. What my point boils down to is that trade is so complex that it's very difficult to prove being out of the EU is better than being in it or vice versa. In life we all walk down our personal roads and make decisions when we reach forks. With major decisions you can't go back you just have to continue on. It's the same with the decision to leave the EU.

Your point on carbon footprint: I agree with you again. That's why I say a Green vote is a wasted one. Being Green can be done anytime, anywhere by individuals. They don't have to wait for government to do something. Any government of any political shade can try to persuade other countries to be more Green but those other countries are only doing now what we've done in the past and may be still doing so they will need a lot of persuasion.
 

CommonSense

Active Member
Let's get a sense of reality here.

Points of View is a BBC "Show."
It's for entertainment only.
That's why it's been hosted by people who are comedians or just think they are from day one, (Barry Took)..

The fact that it's the BBC themselves who choose the letters etc., they present, takes any validity away.

The BBC once had a Points of View message board where they changed the format after ten years, so it was impossible for like minded people to criticise en block any more. As the standard of programmes fell the complaints were increasing, so they weren't having it.
I remember the host saying once that the messages received on the board, "weren't typical of those sent in by phone, letter, or e-mail to the programme."

Well "They would say that wouldn't they?"

You of course, can continue to believe that the BBC are fair minded and have no agenda.

Perhaps the government will now wade into them and cut the extravagancies and particularly the waste.

For the latter, they could start with Greg Wallace.
Point taken. And there is also the fact that a TV licence is required to own a TV when you might not want to watch the BBC broadcasts.
 

Pacifico

Banned
Labour lose the working class - but its been a trend for some years. Seems that the more that the working class saw of Corbyn the less they liked him..



Times
 

CommonSense

Active Member
Labour lose the working class - but its been a trend for some years. Seems that the more that the working class saw of Corbyn the less they liked him..



Times
Sorry I don't know what this graphic represents -the vertical axis isn't specified (I remember one of my lecturers in time gone by reminding me it's no good having an accurate graph if it's not complete so when you refer to it later it's meaningless). But regarding the 2017 GE both Labour and Conservatives increased their share of total vote but Conservative seats went down and Labour up. I think Brexit is an important change which is why it's gone on and on but it has also increased public awareness of politics. Unfortunately I think many voters couldn't really make much sense of it and got fed up. Many of them were swayed by the fact that Parliament obstructed Brexit and that the Labour manifesto was so unbelievable. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is such a bad guy and I think they should leave him alone now. But one thing in particular struck me about him. Recently (when the election was announced?) he made a speech saying a leader, when he goes through a door, holds it open for others following him and doesn't slam it in their face (aimed at Boris Johnson). What he didn't say, though, was Jeremy Corbyn himself was the one who stood with his back against the Brexit door barring people from leaving -not an act of leadership.
 

EarthRod

Distinguished Member
Sorry I don't know what this graphic represents -the vertical axis isn't specified (I remember one of my lecturers in time gone by reminding me it's no good having an accurate graph if it's not complete so when you refer to it later it's meaningless).
The vertical axis is the percentage of the vote.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
OK. I was still puzzled when I compared it to total vote percentage figures but then I've noted that the graphic is about `DE voters -lower working class and those not in work'. Fair point.

Yeh, those who Corbyn said the Tories will destroy even voted for Boris ! Suppose you'll say its because their thick, naïve.

Nobody with any sense wants hard left.
 

CommonSense

Active Member
Yeh, those who Corbyn said the Tories will destroy even voted for Boris ! Suppose you'll say its because their thick, naïve.

Nobody with any sense wants hard left.
You shouldn't make suppositions about what someone else might say. I'm not a political person, I support what is fair and pragmatic whether or not it's `socialism' or `capitalism'. I've never said that traditional Labour voters who voted Conservative are thick or naïve. I have said some of it was gut reaction but that doesn't make it invalid. We should be considering and debating now what the Conservative government is going to do and not still running Jeremy Corbyn down.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Labour lose the working class - but its been a trend for some years. Seems that the more that the working class saw of Corbyn the less they liked him..



Times
All three elections have had a Brexit dimension (the 2015 election being the promise to hold the referendum). If you combine Tory and UKIP/Brexit Party results you see a fair consistent result:

2015 - 47
2017 - 45
2019 - 50

I think all that shows then is the DE demographic is anti-EU. Something we have all known for a long time.
 

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