880 vs E30

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by bobbles, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. bobbles

    bobbles
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    buying one tomorrow

    I am pulling my hair out deciding, please help!!!!

    I have a Tosh 210 which prob will not play +RW (nor -RAM natch)

    I have Sky+ so instant rewind, live pause is of no interest

    I want to use the DVDR to back up TV series from sky+

    I know I can hack the 880 to make it Multiregion, but I can use my Tosh to play other region DVDs I own. I will prob keep this connected to my TV using my Component cables.

    Long term I will prob buy a DVD writer for my PC to back up -RAM or +RW to -R or +R

    I know E30 has better editing facilities

    -R is cheaper 49p

    +RW is cheaper than -RAM (not by much now)


    Any advice will be gratefully received and considered

    cheers Bob
     
  2. calscot

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    Acording to Philips, over 70% of players will play +RW so your tosh will probably be fine.

    If you buy the Philips from Richer Sounds it come as MR out of the box and they'll also beat any internet price by a tenner (I got my 880 for £362). They also do an excellent extended warranty - I paid 60 quid for a five year one, and if I don't use it I get my money back at the end).

    The MR, cheaper price than E30 and RS warranty are the main reasons I went for the Philips and have been well pleased with my purchase.

    I also plan to buy a Philips 963SA for the progressive scan so the fact it will definitely play +RW's is essential so I can watch films recorded from TV on the projector I also plan to buy.

    The things I miss with the 880 are pause live and recording something while watching a previous recording which you can already do.

    The editing on the E30 is probably much better and the FR mode sounds useful. But you will probably do all your editing on SKY+ before archiving to disk.

    The FR mode would give you the best quality as you could use the whole disc to minimise the compression.

    Cheers,
    Cal.
     
  3. chrise

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  4. malcom

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    Hi bobbles. As a fellow Brummy I have been trying to help in replies on the other thread. As I too some months ago was a tortured person as to which format to buy into!

    Now I have both the E20 and the E30 and as a result am completely biased in favour of the Panny format. I can only repeat. "Thank goodness I did not go the plus format route and it's quite primitive linear recording technology.

    It's my understanding that Philips don't have any service centres in this country for the plus format machines. So if your machine developed a fault the retailer would have to send it abroad for repair. Meaning a two or three week loss of use. So if you do decide on the Philips choose a retailer you know and can trust.

    Have you studied the postings on the forum below which is dedicated to the plus RW format. Enlightening. Good luck. Malcom.

    http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/forum/ikonboard.cgi
     
  5. Rasczak

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    Personally I would go for the E30 - but you probably guessed that by now as that's precisely what I did. The Flexible Bitrate and editing abilities can't be matched.

    That would be if Sky+ had any editing facilities.
     
  6. bobbles

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    i was wondering about that

    it would be a great feature on sky+ if you could

    I keep changing my mind which one I will get. I think at the end of the day I will be pretty happy with either both have pros and cons

    I rather hastily bought some +RW so exchanging them for -RAM would be a hassle and the cheap -RAM have all sold

    I will have a look tomorrow. I am still leaning towards the Philips
     
  7. bobbles

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    I have got £150 worth of dixons/currys vouchers from my credit card so I will have to go through them

    I phoned currys today to see if I could buy in store for the online price

    no, (in store price is 80 odd more!) internet store has smaller overheads.

    So I said will you be shutting the store tomorrow if I am not coming

    no of course not

    so what difference does it make?

    erm you just can not

    so I enquired could I buy online and pick up from the store

    no

    why surely I would be saving you the postal costs

    erm we do not do that


    Pathetic
     
  8. bobbles

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    why both?

    Is it to copy what you have copied on -RAM to -R if so what was the drop in quality

    I will go check out the site
     
  9. jem

    jem
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    Rasczak

    As an added extra. I noticed you have an HS2 and I'm thinking about a DVDR and have Sky+ already.

    My initial thought was to pair the Sky+ box with a Philips 890 as basically any DVD I record would need to be able to be played in my sons' DVD players. I also thought I didn't need the extra features that the Panasonic system offers over the Philips e.g timeslip.

    However I'm wondering if the editing features of the HS2 are something I would find useful e.g. getting rid of adverts and unneccessary padding at the beginning/end of a programme. How easy is it to get rid of unwanted sections, especially ads?

    Basically is there anything you can tell me that might help to make up my mind? Or point me in the direction of a good review which shows all of the features of the Hs2?

    Thanks for your help.
     
  10. bobbles

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    you can edit out all ads using +RW

    which play on most dvd players

    you can edit out on -RAM too but you will not be able to play on other machines

    To get the HS2 with sky+ is way OTT IMO

    a better solution would be to use some of the extra the hs2 would cost to buy a dvd writer on your PC
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I honestly can't sing the praises of the HS2 enough - it really is a godsend. I don't use Timeslip or the JPEG viewer so can't comment on those.

    I'll give you an example. I am at the moment recording a US SciFi show on the SciFi Channel. Each episode is 45 minutes long with around 10 minutes of adverts. I record them on Sky+ and use the copy feature to transfer them to the HS2 HDD using XP quality (1 hour per RAM/-R disk quality mode but around 8hrs when using the HDD). I then edit out the advert breaks etc - this is easy, quick and very effective. I then select two episodes and copy them to a DVD-R using the Flexible Recording Mode resulting in a perfect recording. On a 36" widescreen television the result is indistinguishable from the original broadcast.

    Editing is easy - you select 'Partial Erase' from the menu which brings up a screen in which the recording plays normally taking up a quarter of the screen. You use the arrow keys, fast forward/backward, pause, frame advance etc to select a 'Start' point for each edit and an 'end' point. You click delete, it asks you if your sure, and then it removes the selected segment. You repeat for each cut. It's that simple. It takes me a maximum of about 3-5 minutes to erase two advert breaks and clip the start/end of the title.

    If your budget can justify the HS2 get it - you won't be disappointed. You will also find DVD-Rs have MUCH better compatibility with other DVD Players than +RW.
     
  12. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I agree this is worth doing as well - and something I also do so I can create DVD Menus with pictures from the Show. I spend hours doing it.

    Nevertheless the HS2 gives an extremely powerful solution 'all in one box' and offers the ability to ensure maximum quality by recording to the HDD, editting and then using the Flexible Bitrate. You will never be able to get anywhere near the quality this gives by using +RW as it is a linear format.
     
  13. bobbles

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    sounds fantastic Raz but a very expensive solution, bit unnecessary if +RW will play on his other machines.

    surely a 1hr copy on -R is the same quality as a 1hr of +R


    what does that mean, it takes 8hrs of space?

    what do you mean about linear recording, the fact it can not record anywhere on the disk

    I can see how the flexible bit rate will maximise the quality but surely if you are sensible when selecting the mode it doesn't make that much difference

    if i understand correctly
     
  14. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Assume you are recording a 45 minute TV show off a channel which has 15 minutes of adverts in. You want to record two episodes of the series to each disk with no adverts.

    On your E30 you record the first episode using Flexible Bitrate set for 1hr 45mins (45 mins over the length of the BOTH programmes). You then delete the adverts reducing the programme to 45 minutes effectively leaving 1 hours space. You then record the next episode using Flexible Bitrate which will record the hour long programme into that space - you then delete the adverts meaning the bitrate has only lost out on 15 minutes of space.

    You now want to record the same on the Philips +RW. You can only record in 2 hour mode (significantly lower quality) and delete the adverts in each as you can recover no space from the deleted adverts. So not only have you used a lower bitrate (wasting 30 minutes) but, because +RW is incompatible with a flexible bitrate, you have used a worse compression tehnology.

    If you have a PC burner you now take you -RAM disk or +RW copy the contents to your HDD, author as required and burn to DVD Video. The Panasonic user gets the much better product.

    That's the point! It makes all the difference. Any DVD Recorder, when set at anything other than it's 1hr per disk mode, will used a fixed bitrate. This will be fine until the player comes across something that is difficult to compress, e.g. smoke/mist. Then you will get digital artifacts UNLESS you use a Flexible Bitrate which will save the high bitrates for that scene.

    An HS2 user has the very best of both worlds though as he can record things to the HDD (which acts as a 40GB RAM disk) in XP mode and then copy in Flexible Recording Mode (wasted space = 0 minutes). The overall result is slightly superior to the E30 and greatly superior to the 890.
     
  15. bobbles

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    i didn't realise it was smart enough to change depending on scene

    i thought it was purely just for more recording lengths
     
  16. bobbles

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    doesn't that mean then if you set it up for a 1:45 recording then that is just an estimate as it might be something complex that takes up more space
     
  17. Rasczak

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    To some extent that is correct - but the random access nature of the RAM format means it writes a short block then compresses it. So it is not in the same league as a non-real time compression package but still much more effective than not using anything. There was an article about it (I sure rather biased but neither the less informative) on the Panasonic.com website following the launch of the E20.
     
  18. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Yes - and it warns you of that in the manual. However the unit is quite clever and will reduce the bitrate if it determines it is likely to run out of space. Normally I find I have 1 to 3 minutes spare capacity upon completion. It has NEVER missed an ending.
     
  19. bobbles

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    very clever

    you are not making this decision easy

    I am gonna right down the pros and cons of both
     
  20. jem

    jem
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    OK thanks. I think I'm following this. It's a pity Sky+ doesn't have the editing features.

    One last question;
    Can the HS2 record from DVD onto the HDD? I am particularly thinking of DVDR which I have recorded and someone would like a copy of, rather than pre-recorded DVDs which I assume you would not be able to copy?
     
  21. bobbles

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    it is possible to get round the protection problem. Personally I have no intention of doing this. BB has had all the money it will ever see from me

    if you went the + route you could play +RW on normal dvd player then copy onto +R on dvdr

    it all depends on what you are willing to pay

    it sounds to me Raz has the best possible set up with

    sky+
    HS2
    PC burner/editing facilities

    but that option is not cheap
     
  22. Rasczak

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    I've never tried this - I use my PC -R burner to make copies of my DVD-Rs, so just tried it now. I'm afraid the unit doesn't let you do this. You can goto the dubbing screen, select DVD to HDD, but it won'tlet you select start. So that would be out. My best suggestion here would be to keep a 'master' recording on DVD-RAM (some other users have reported these are available for as little as £2.50).

    Alternatively, as Bobbles stated, you could use another player to play the final DVD-R whilst recording on the HS2 although there would, obviously, be a drop in quality.
     
  23. Rasczak

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    I think that honour goes to those who can afford DVHS. That said, given the modest bitrate Sky use, I'm unsure how much superior the picture quality would be.
     
  24. ferris57

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    In case anyone is interested, www.Techtronics.com is selling the e30 for £340. Or a fully multi region (including rce-I believe the dvdr880 can't play rce) one for £425. Seems pretty good to me.
     
  25. jem

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    I think you may have forgotten to add the VAT - Techtronics prices are excluding VAT. VAT on top would make their price £499. You can get it from http://www.multiregionmagic.co.uk/ for £449 multi region.
     
  26. jem

    jem
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    Thanks for trying that out but I'm confused. Why would keeping a 'master' copy on DVD-RAM allow me to copy when DVD to HDD doesn't work?
     
  27. ferris57

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  28. Rasczak

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    Because you can dub from DVD to HDD if you are using a RAM disk - it only stops you if you have a DVD Video in the drive (even if that DVD Video is one of your finalised DVD-Rs).

    No Flexible Recording Mode is on all the DVD-RAM recorders - the E20, E30 and HS2 as well as the Samsung and Toshiba models. It is the big selling point of the format.
     
  29. bobbles

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    due to Dixons being a complete sod

    they wouldn't let me spend my vouchers online, only in store. The store wouldn't match the online price either

    :mad:

    I went for a multiregion Panny from the multiregionmagic store mentioned earlier

    Thanks for the link

    Thanks to all for the advice. It was the faults and VBR that finally swung it Pannys way
     
  30. jem

    jem
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    As far as I'm aware they are one of the more reliable online dealers. Another is www.avland.co.uk but they are not doing the E30 at the moment and are taking pre-orders for the E50 and E60 due out in Feb/Mar.

    Techtronics have been getting a very bad name on a lot of forums - especially catching people out with their prices excluding VAT. After sales services is also pretty poor from what I've read.
     

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