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8" crt on a 14ft screen!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by crteaman, Jun 16, 2005.

  1. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Well well well, looks like I finally get to put another LCD/CRT myth to bed (where it belongs).

    Yesterday I had a job booked in the midlands to go and set up a Runco 992 (barco 808 with filtered lenses etc) and only found out the evening before that he had a 12 foot screen! yes I was equally shocked.

    I actually said to myself this is madness and whilst not impossible (nothing is) its going to look very poor indeed, however the job was booked and never prepared to let a customer down off I trundled.

    Upon arriving I was glad to find out it wasn't a 12 foot screen (phew) it was in fact a 172", and yes that's width not diagonal, that very nearly 14 feet!!

    Even before it was fully converged the customer could see its potential, all the time I was wondering would it have enough light output? so once the memory blocks had been stored for 4:3 and 16:9 we darkened the room down and turned up the contrast and...........wow!

    For those of you who know me, then you will know I just dont say wow for no reason at all, and know you can value my honest opinion.
    Yes it really did look amazing, I would normally run the contrast at around 50-55 for screens from 80-100 inch, for this screen we ran 60-65! (only)

    The largest screen I had set up before was 11.5 feet with a cine nine, and went kicking and screaming on that job, how did that look, blinking marvellous, in fact Speedbird has seen that install and was also amazed.

    It would appear that sometimes we simply have to face our demons, and be forced to do something we would not normally consider, move out of our comfort zone's if you like, and as welwynnick said on another thread only then do we learn something new.

    Now some of you may be wondering which crt unit he was using before? he wasn't we removed an LCD!!!

    Sure he couldn't watch a crt with his curtains open, but as the customer said "who the hell would want to do that?" he is a film man and when he sits down to watch a movie he wants to do that in the ideal conditions, just as we do when we go to the cinema (less the pop corn brigade) and he wants to immerse himself in that movie, not have the light on, sound turned down and talk to his better half about the weather!

    Like the rest of his he wanted to re-create his childhood visits to the cinema, for him memories of 'How the west was won' for me well I remember 'Star wars' I guess the real movie watchers amongst us may not be casual viewers, we want ot watch our movies in the correct and ideal conditions,(as far as we can).

    We can only have that escapism and movie magic, if we immerse ourselves, turn of our mobile phones,make sure we cant hear the dog next door barking etc.

    james
     
  2. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Wow 14 feet!!!

    I guess it's 16:9 otherwise screen height would be 10.5 ft if it's 4:3!

    Does the pj have new tubes?
     
  3. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I remember Joel Silver of ISF saying you shouldnt go above 7ft wide-even for a 9".
    I think this is proof positive you cant believe all you read-and hear,rather trust your eyes!!

    **
    Its funny,I saw a little Optoma H78 unit on a 12ft wide screen last week..and my only lament was you couldnt really have a 12ft wide screen for crt... :hiya:

    BUT..I wonder..how big could we go.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  4. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Forgot to ask how far is the seating from the screen?
     
  5. loonatic

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    That's just what I was wondering plus how high the ceiling was as at 14ft wide the screen would be the best part of 8ft high with a border...also whether an external scaler was involved.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  6. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    When I got into audio a "few" years ago with a some friends in the audio club at college, we took listening quite seriously. We found the sweet spot, turned the lights off, filled our glasses, closed our eyes, made sure we weren't interupted and set the volume just right (quite high, but not uncomfortable).

    With a good system and no distractions, we would drift off into another world to such an extent that after a few minutes we would forget the room we were in, where the walls were, how far away our hands were, even how how big they were. Once absorbed into the music, we could "gaze" (eyes closed) around, with no sense of the perspective of the room, even which way was up or down. Listening to the Floyd, I even felt as if I had huge hands. The Comfortably Numb feeling.

    Open your eyes, and the bubble burst, but it was quite disconcerting getting used to where you were, and it would be difficult to focus on the far wall to begin with. Now before the obvious replies pour in, the only intoxicant we were familiar with at the time was ethyl alcohol, but it sure felt like we had found a vice-free shortcut to something much stronger and more worthwhile. I hesitate to recount this, because I don't know if anyone else will recognise what I am talking about - few people did at the time - but it was always something to look forwards to, when you could COMPLETELY lose yourself in the music. Since the kids arrived, those moments have been few and far between, but James' description of being immersed in the reproduction of the performance did strike a chord.

    My interests have moved on to video, like many other people, I imagine. Apart from when I fell asleep while watching Moulin Rouge with my wife, cinema has a similar effect of transporting you to a different place, somewhere where the director decides, and where you forget where you are. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same, because the images are explicit rather than imaginary, but there are parallels. The illusion only works if the reproduction mechanism is adequately realistic. The fidelity has got to be good of course. For audio, it helps if the volume is high, and I think with films you need a big picture, so that you don't get distracted by anything else. If there is any sort of corruption in the reproduction, like distortion, colouring, lack of resolution, screen door, anything really, then the illusion will not work.

    Now, I have not had that feeling of being transported somewhere else while watching a film at home. Yet. But having seen James' system, I'm hoping I might do soon. I just need to be able to forget about all the things that the reproduction system can do wrong, and get that Comfortably Numb feeling again.

    Thanks for bearing with me, Nick
     
  7. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Yes it was a 4:3 screen and before you say it ,yes his ceiling was very high, I'm estimating 14-15 feet.

    The unit in question was a lowish hour Runco 992 ultra with a 4403 scaler, we were running at 720/768p the scaler's maximum, could have done with a smidge higher scan rate but it looked great as it was.

    Oh, forgot to mention it was floor mounted, seating distance was around 17/18 feet, a little close for my liking, somewhere around 21/23 feet would have been my choice.

    Incidently the customer has alway's considered his screen was far too small :eek:


    james
     
  8. speedbird001

    speedbird001
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    Hi....Yes James....I can vouch for the quality of the 12 footer...I hope i get to see this new record breaker one day...Sounds like a box of Hong Kong Magic would go down a treat in there....
     
  9. Godfather

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    Hi Gav! I'm sure 960p of HK Magic (I like that) would look much better on a screen of that size. It looks marvellous even my 6.5 footer.
     
  10. speedbird001

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    You got it Godfather....Those silver boxes really do the business (and the black ones)
     
  11. Vince M

    Vince M
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    It was the same with me Nick-and I perfectly understand the Floyd thing,I remember when Dark Side of the Moon came out and hearing this unique sound coming from a room at this party I was at..I forgot the party..took some beers and listened to the Floyd all night!!
    My first experience of Cinema was when my dad took me to see Custer of the West in Cinerama at the Odeon Leicester square(i think..).
    Years later I had a demo of a Dwin HD 700 with a Theta Casablanca with all the top cards and watched the MASK in dts via laserdisc on a 9ft screen!

    It was fantastic!..I got the same buzz a couple of years later listening to a Mcintosh THX demo.
    Thats what i want to emulate..the Cinema experience -without the popcorn munchers behind you!!

    For us to realise a totally immersive experience there should be no compromise(pocket permitting!)-we should also,though be interested in the specs not let them detract from what our eyes and ears tell us.
    If it looks and sounds great, it is.
    I have found that a preoccupation with specs and the technical side can actually limit us..How many out there DONT have 12-14ft screens because they read its not optimum?..Sure,technically it may not be..but who cares? I had a conversation with a venerable member of this forum the other night and we agreed that the effect of a 14ft screen on your senses makes up for the "technical" defecit.
    I think we should always seek to push the boundaries of whats possible,be innovative,try and exceed the stipulated "guidance" parameters-remember they are a guide not a defacto standard-nothing is.
    If we constrain ourselves to the norm-thats what we will get!..and who wants to be normal? :)
    I recently had a little Sony D50 calibrated to ISF 6500k with all the ISF paperwork-and in fairness the picture though accurate,looked a little flat,to cut a long story short I managed to improve on the pic and give it more dynamic,more punch.It probably panned out to about 6900k..who cares? it looked better ..
    Now I dont meant this to invalidate the ISF process..far from it..but everything can be improved to what WE like..there are no restictions in the quest for the ultimate pic.
    A great example was the Sony VPL 12ht LCD projector,It had a pretty accuare 6500k setting(which looked a little dim) ..it also had a very bold setting..the trick was to go into the service menus create a custom setting by tweaking the gain and bias and wind up with the accuracy -or close to -of the 6500k colour gammut and the punch of the bold setting.
    When done this took the 12ht into another level.

    If we seek to emulate anything it should be reality.
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Vince: Who did the ISF of the D50? Or did you buy in a unit that had already been ISF'd? You may want to note that ISF or indeed any calibration should be done as part of a system. So if someone buys a s/h projector that has been calibrated it may well be more accurate than out of the box but, in the case of a CRT projector, as soon as it is re-set up in it's new location it's extremely likely to need recalibrated. If you thought a calibrated D50 looked flat and washed out then I'd suggest it wasn't set up or calibrated that well in the first place.

    6500K is also not the target for calibration.

    On the subject of large screens....the first ever CRT i set up was a Seleco500 on a 9ft wide screen. It looked great. I'm sure it'd have looked better on a 7ft screen but it wasn't shabby at all.

    All the best,

    G
     
  13. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    So true.
     
  14. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Technically,I agree,but then theres more of an immersive quality on a larger screen which arguably is more of a wow than a slightly better pic on a smaller screen.
    At the end of the day,its the experience of the big screen that got most of us into this hobby of ours-
    Its a matter of choice at the end of the day and nice to know that beyond 7ft and crt still looks great!!
     
  15. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Glad you agree!..You can now feel confident in throwing out all those Widescreen Reviews and replace with more apt under the bed material!! :smashin:
     
  16. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    James,

    Did you measure the lumens and calculate the ft lamberts? You might find them lower than you think.

    With the kind of contrast ratios that CRTs can achieve, in my limited experience it would seem that a higher CR gives more depth and can make the image appear brighter than it is. In an experiement with a few lens filters on a digital projector to increase the contrast ratio (using Colorfacts), I found that an image with as little as 4ft lamberts reflectance seemed considerably brighter than the numbers would suggest. I found the image very watchable, yet when you consider that 12ft lamberts is the aim for cinema levels of reflectance, you would think it was far too dim, but it wasn't.

    Projectiondream,

    I think Gordon was referring to D65 being the white point target not 6500k - 6500k is a line in colourspace, whereas D65 is a point. Imagine the number 15 - you can make it from 10, 3 and 2 for example, but what we want for accurate colour reproduction in home cinema is 5, 5 and 5. Gordon will tell you that 6500k can in fact look green. :)

    Gary.
     
  17. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Yes it is essentially achieving the correct balance,Absolutely agree..whites can also look "cream" at 6500k
    But the point I was making is a point that Joel Silver made many moons ago in that after calibaration if it doesnt look right..after checking the equipment it still doesnt look right,then use your eyes till it looks right! :smashin:
     
  18. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Sorry Gary I can only say how good it looked, honestly mate. Those that made the effort to attend the event will know, I dont take myself to serious most of the time but when it comes to my system...well that's a different story.

    When everyone at the event were asked the question "how good do you rate the grey scale and colour balance on my unit here today?" they all thought it looked great (as no doubt they will tell you).
    I then asked them which colour analyser thet thought I used as I reached for a black case that was tucked beside my front left speaker and passed it around asking anyone brave enough to open it, there inside was.............................

    I can get as technical on the subject of crt's as anyone out there if required but do we always have to prove thing's to ourselves with disc's chart's and numbers when sometimes the eye will do?

    I am used to working with different crt's on a daily basis so of course alway's have a yardstick to measure by, and this is the benefit of experience (I am lucky).

    Would it have looked better on a smaller screen? of course, but you truly would have been surprised at how good it looked.

    Also remember that although most cinema's should achieve 12+ fl most of them struggle to reach 8fl.

    Dare I suggest to those that attended the event "most of you assumed I had used an analyser" which is why i pulled the little surprise on them, funny what the power of suggestion can do eh?

    I am just guessing here of course but do you use a fixed panel unit yourself Gary?

    Also remember that most of the cheaper analyser's out there do not have a fast enough response time on their probes for the bottom 20-30 ire of a crt.

    Of course I subscribe to both the naked eye and to measurement, just as the piano tuner trusts his ear, and is trained to do so, granted acuity of the eye to the ear is perhaps as low as one tenth, and that how we see can be logarithmic rather than linear it can make it a little more difficult.

    james
     
  19. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Very true.

    If it's obviously wrong I don't think you'll need test equipment to tell you that because your eyes should be able to spot it. :)

    Gary.
     
  20. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    No need to apologise crteaman, I was merely demonstrating by example that things can appear brighter than they are when they have a good contrast range (which CRTs are renown for), hence my innocent question. I seem to have offended you where no offense was meant and I don't understand why.

    I do own a digital but I don't understand why that question is relevant?

    Gary.
     
  21. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Hope you can come and have a look sometime Gary.


    james
     
  22. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Offended? just wondered if you were a crt or a fixed panel user.

    james
     
  23. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Kind of you to offer - where are you situated?

    You seemed offended judging by your response, which seemed a bit off. Sorry if I'm wrong.

    Gary.
     
  24. crteaman

    crteaman
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    No that was just me in factual mode, tend not to write from the heart so much in that guise, although your opening statement made me wonder, i.e lumens being lower than I might think?

    Before I arrived at the guy's house i actually admit to thinking "this is madness" (remember I only run a 72" screen) but how wrong I was.

    I am in Norwich Gary, yes yes I know its out on a limb but I guess someone has got to live here.

    james
     
  25. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi James,

    I only asked about the lumens because I had found the same thing myself (hence the example), and as CRTs aren't 'meant' to be bright enough for that size screen I thought that might be the case, hence the query (plus the fact if you set them up you obviously know what you're doing). I guess I just like to know these things. :)

    I don't know if you frequent avsforum, but Art Sonneborne has a 12ft wide screen but is using two G90s stacked in order to achieve the brightness he wanted and that was another reason why I asked. Some of us would consider ourselves lucky to own one G90 but he's just greedy!

    Nothing wrong with Norwich - it's the home of 'The Quiz of the Week'. :D

    Gary.
     
  26. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Gary I set up stacked 8" marquees here a while back and got a few of the guy's to pop over for a squint, aim to have stacked 9500's here soon-ish although its just a fun exercise, my 9500 on my 72" has fairly amazing light output (by crt standards).

    Yesterday I learned more boring statistics, Norwich is the ebay capitol of the UK, honest I am being serious, really got me pondering that one.

    james
     
  27. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Do you sell anything 'buy it now'? :)

    Gary.
     
  28. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Ha ha, Marquee 9501, starting at £1.00 reserve is............. :smashin:


    james
     
  29. Vince M

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    WHATS UP WITH THAT! I sell BIN. :confused:
     
  30. gazzzman

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    WoW! someone talking sense :clap:
    sure the tech is important but its the feeling that really counts!
    I have set up seleco 180's and 195's on 10 and 12 ft screens: no scalers no fancy tricks and the customers have been knocked out!
    recently I did a real weird one... seleco 400 on a16ft (yes I said 16ft) PARABOLIC screen :) (who in this forum has ever used a parabolic?)
    the seleco was floor mounted on the standard seleco pedistalthe room was long and high; and the picture? well that was astounding and way better than I ever expected :D the moral of the story (if there is one) enjoy what you can find/afford instead of crying over what you cant.. sometimes things are better than you expect... a lot better :thumbsup:
    cheerz
    gazzzman
     

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