77'' OLED vs 100'' Projector Showdown

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
So, some may know I recently bought the Epson 9400, loved it, sadly it had a lamp failure or something within 17 days so I returned it in a hissy fit about reliability of expensive products. This was projecting a 95-100'' image. Then I decided to go down the 77 inch OLED route.

Visual TV Size Comparison : 95 inch 16x9 display vs 77 inch 16x9 display Just so people can see the size difference.


After playing with both for a substantial period of time and testing if on the family, I feel confident in drawing some comparisons between the two if anyones interested and in a similar position.


So, for gaming, the OLED absolutely destroys the projector. I think games are very dependant on colour reproduction and have a much heavier reliance on the colour black. These both play in OLEDs favour and good games are quite finicky with HDR and very customisable with sliders. OLEDs respond well to these sliders. The Epson doesn't. For example some scenes in TLOU after the HDR calibration still showed the sky in some daytime scenes with snow.. looking very very very dim/dusky. However on the 902B calibrated reference mode, they were bright. The OLED obviously deals with them flawlessly. Games use a lot of specular highlight detail and again... the OLEDs just have many many many gaming advantages over a PJ including the instant pixel response time. Size wise, for gaming, I don't see THAT much of a better experience with a big screen. If anything its detrimental because the pixels are less sharp, and games really rely on that for photorealistic graphics.


Moving on to films & TV shows. I'd summarise it as trying to decide what type of person you are. Are you someone who just enjoys the experience or are you someone who strives after perfection and wants to see the best representation of every scene? If you're the former, I think a projector with a big sound is just absolutely phenomenal. For the average Joe, a projector like the 9400 is going to blow people away every single day. the IMAX scenes which covered my entire wall in Aquaman was surreal.

Immersion the projector gives. The 77'' OLED does to an extent.. but its still a TV IMO. Just a big one.

Now where I was shocked was immersion at night time. Due to the instant black and the HDR which can shoot light off into the room, I found in a pitch black room, the 77'' OLED was MORE immersive than the projector. However in a dimly lit room, I LOVED the projector. I think this is down to in a dark room, your eyes are drawn completely to the OLED. In a room which isn't as light controlled, the PJ fill sin your whole field of vision.

Now I hate to break it to PJ fans but the issue is if you're an enthusiast, you have to accept you are missing out on A LOT of the HDR experience. Dynamic tone mapping on a PJ only goes so far and the specular highlight detail and striking brightness variations within a scene and from scene to scene is amazing on an OLED and something PJs don't offer. When its a night scene.. I feel the night.. when its a day scene.. well my whole room is brought to light... with a PJ you don't get this. You just get a very nice picture.

3D content Projectors destroy cos they actually have 3D. 3D on a 100 inch projector is amazing. I love it. And for some films, its probably better or just as good as the 4K/HDR version. However it brings up some issues of crosstalk et al which might annoy some people who want perfection.




_____


Overall.. well I'm not going to return or sell the OLED so I think that speaks volumes. I still think projector is phenomenal and the ultimate setup involves BOTH devices. I still think a 77'' OLED is not good enough to immerse more than 1-2 to people. A projector can easily enthrall an entire room.


I think if we were to compare projecrtor to big 75'' LCD FYI, I'd pick the projector. I just think OLED's 'perfect' image and pixel level control which has an enhanced 3d-like pop and sharpness to the image is difficult to compete with.

I didn't bother to compare 120'' projector to 77'' OLED because they're too VERY VERY different use cases. If you need 120 inches.. you need 120 inches :D (and oh god am i jealous of the room you must have).
 
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mb3195

Distinguished Member
Depends on the PJ mate.

Stick a lumagen on a decent PJ in a dedicated bat cave and it will blow any OLED out of the water for pretty much everything, also handling HDR just as well as a TV.

My Sony 760 with my Lumagen produces a better image on pretty much anything compared to either my Sony A1 OLED and Sony ZD9 LCD.

The only place the TVs win is on the blackest blacks.

But we are then talking significant price differences.
 
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GrazzaB

Well-known Member
Thanks for the really interesting write up. I do wonder how one of the JVC N range would fare in comparison, as with them you’ve got the full 4K resolution and the dynamic tone mapping which is supposed to be great across all sources, including games. However, you’re also talking at least twice 9400 money for the N5 (although not that different to the 77” OLED).

Thanks though, really good read!
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Depends on the PJ mate.

Stick a lumagen on a decent PJ in a dedicated bat cave and it will blow any OLED out of the water for pretty much everything, also handling HDR just as well as a TV.

My Sony 760 with my Lumagen produces a better image on pretty much anything compared to either my Sony A1 OLED and Sony ZD9 LCD.

The only place the TVs win is on the blackest blacks.

But we are then talking significant price differences.


Does a Lumagen allow for specular highlight reproduction? HDR on an OLED is so startling due to the extreme light differences on a specific scene and scene to scene.

As far as I know, a Luamgen is just a video processor and cannot correct this limitation of projectors which exists. I see it as a technical limitation.


For example, scene on Wonder Woman. On her little small thing on her head, there is the tiniest bit of shine and specular highlight detail much higher than the rest of the scene. How does a projector actually illustrate that brightness in a dark scene? It can't.

Its similar to the simple example of a black flame in a dark scene. A projector can't customise the black flame to be hitting X lumens and the rest of the scene much lower. An OLED can and does.

I would say this distinct advantage of pixel level control of brightness and colour is exclusive to OLEDs and why I also think LCDs fall short against them.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Thanks for the really interesting write up. I do wonder how one of the JVC N range would fare in comparison, as with them you’ve got the full 4K resolution and the dynamic tone mapping which is supposed to be great across all sources, including games. However, you’re also talking at least twice 9400 money for the N5 (although not that different to the 77” OLED).

Thanks though, really good read!


I agree. Would be more fairer too given the price tags. I think the technical limitations I drew would be the same however.

The JVC would just have a better PQ, but I struggle to see how it would better the epson astronomically for me to change conclusions.

Now I still like projectors and my long term plan is to buy the next Epson PJ or if my room allows it, a JVC. I love both technologies, each goes hand in hand. But I think from a PQ perspective, I struggle to understand how any amount of video processing can make up for projectors not being able to handle the colour black perfectly and control each pixel to represent a scene.

Its quite startling even compared to a high end FALD PC the detail (or brightness) lost due to the lack of precision of pixel control.

PJs I'm very fond of but for example, the typical black scene with bright bright bright stars, the PJ will always be far inferior to the OLED.

Of course the size of a PJ more than makes up for some of its shortcomings. But I think we then just fall into the question of what type of person are you. I am someone who sadly can be a bit OCD and is always wondering 'I wonder what this scene looked like on a TV' when I see the PJ struggling to reproduce what should be intense specular highlight detail.

I would still say PJ takes my breath away to this day.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Does a Lumagen allow for specular highlight reproduction? HDR on an OLED is so startling due to the extreme light differences on a specific scene and scene to scene.

As far as I know, a Luamgen is just a video processor and cannot correct this limitation of projectors which exists. I see it as a technical limitation.


For example, scene on Wonder Woman. On her little small thing on her head, there is the tiniest bit of shine and specular highlight detail much higher than the rest of the scene. How does a projector actually illustrate that brightness in a dark scene? It can't.

Its similar to the simple example of a black flame in a dark scene. A projector can't customise the black flame to be hitting X lumens and the rest of the scene much lower. An OLED can and does.

I would say this distinct advantage of pixel level control of brightness and colour is exclusive to OLEDs and why I also think LCDs fall short against them.

Trust me, come and see for yourself. You have to squint in my room.

You’re not judging a projector in the best environment to be fair. When you’ve got a bat cave velvet covered room, brightness is much less of an issue. The lumagen makes at least a 200% increase in HDR performance. The zone scene by scene tone mapping is a completely different ball game to any built in tone mapping on a PJ or TV.

I would guarantee you would change your mind if your saw my projector within my room.

But, I get, for most people this isn’t an option and your point is valid 99% of the time.

I’m holding an open day on the 22nd August, fee free to come along mate and see for yourself.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Trust me, come and see for yourself. You have to squint in my room.

You’re not judging a projector in the best environment to be fair. When you’ve got a bat cave velvet covered room, brightness is much less of an issue. The lumagen makes at least a 200% increase in HDR performance. The zone scene by scene tone mapping is a completely different ball game to any built in tone mapping on a PJ or TV.

I would guarantee you would change your mind if your saw my projector within my room.

But, I get, for most people this isn’t an option and your point is valid 99% of the time.

I’m holding an open day on the 22nd August, fee free to come along mate and see for yourself.


Just wondering how does the lumagen replicate a bright object on a black background to get the specular highlight brightness which an oled can do?

I find it mad half the screen on an oled can be off and the other side shooting light at me.

Would definitely be interested in seeing! Maybe this is the next step up :)
 

sim12

Active Member
Just wondering how does the lumagen replicate a bright object on a black background to get the specular highlight brightness which an oled can do?
I think perhaps this might just be what mb3195 is getting at ,the oled tv just can't do what a lumagen can, infact I bet I'm not wrong in thinking the lumagen pro likely costs more than your new 77"oled !
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Just wondering how does the lumagen replicate a bright object on a black background to get the specular highlight brightness which an oled can do?

I find it mad half the screen on an oled can be off and the other side shooting light at me.

Would definitely be interested in seeing! Maybe this is the next step up :)

I’ve no idea how the lumagen trickery works, but that scene in Wonder Woman you mentioned is far more “eye squinty” in my cinema room than it is on either of my TVs. It makes a huge difference that you simply wouldn’t believe without seeing it in action. You can achieve similar results with MadVR if you know what you’re doing, but I just like the ease of use of the lumagen as everything is just done for you.

A projector in the right environment increases performance at least two fold even without the lumagen though. Velvet ceiling, walls, etc, absolutely zero ambient light, masked screen. All of these things are needed to maximise the potential of one. Whereas a TV you can just shut the curtains and you’re pretty much done.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I think perhaps this might just be what mb3195 is getting at ,the oled tv just can't do what a lumagen can, infact I bet I'm not wrong in thinking the lumagen pro likely costs more than your new 77"oled !

More than likely 😳
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think perhaps this might just be what mb3195 is getting at ,the oled tv just can't do what a lumagen can, infact I bet I'm not wrong in thinking the lumagen pro likely costs more than your new 77"oled !



An OLED TV can control colour and brightness at a pixel level (resulting in some specular highlight detail on pitch black screen, so for example, I can be blinded by a fire on the left side of the screen whilst the other half of the screen is essentially off).

How does the Lumagen (+any consumer projector) replicate that? Sure it cannot. Sure it can create a pleasing image, but the actual brightness from those pixels, I struggle to understand from a technological perspective how it does that.

Because doesn't the PJ technically have to open its iris to reproduce the bright fire?
 

ask4me2

Active Member
From my own experience (comparing CRT projectors to digital projectors etc.), it is always smart to have all the test objects available in real time when comparing these things. Comparing a memory of a projector setup to a present OLED can very easily trick the mind...

kenshingintoki said:
Now where I was shocked was immersion at night time. Due to the instant black and the HDR which can shoot light off into the room, I found in a pitch black room, the 77'' OLED was MORE immersive than the projector. However in a dimly lit room, I LOVED the projector. I think this is down to in a dark room, your eyes are drawn completely to the OLED. In a room which isn't as light controlled, the PJ fill sin your whole field of vision.

I also find the statement rather strange because a projector need to have as little light pollution on the screen as possible to display black and that is where a true real time proper setup for comparison is so important.

One other thing is that a native contrast 6000:1 LCD projector shod not speak for all projectors, especially when compared to one of the best direct view screen technologies out there at the moment.

kenshingintoki said:
I think games are very dependant on colour reproduction and have a much heavier reliance on the colour black.

Black is not a color, it is only zero light that means no color at all.
just like white is not a color, but all colors or in a RGB projector is a calibrated D65 amunt of RGB.
Am not a gamer my self, and only uses projector and lamp hours on movies, so using a direct view screen for hours of gaming is probably a smart thing to do. Do not know how the easy a new 77" OLED get burnins these days, but that may be a something to be a little careful with in bright static showing picture information i think.

I know OLED can show perfect black that is very impressive and it gives HDR with specular highlight that no common lamp based projector without any additional contrast chip can manage.
But I think that some of today's projectors can come rather close to what a 77" OLED can do, and can do it in a better way than the 95" vs 77" comparison can show.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I'm not denying a light controlled projector can make your eyes squint. That is neither here nor there. Our eyes and pupils adapt.

My question is how can it re-produce the pixel level control of brightness?

I've seen even on the Epson (with a 10x inferior setup to yours), it made me squint on the high HDR scenes, but it obviously had to make the entire scene bright).
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
From my own experience (comparing CRT projectors to digital projectors etc.), it is always smart to have all the test objects available in real time when comparing these things. Comparing a memory of a projector setup to a present OLED can very easily trick the mind...



I also find the statement rather strange because a projector need to have as little light pollution on the screen as possible to display black and that is where a true real time proper setup for comparison is so important.

One other thing is that a native contrast 6000:1 LCD projector shod not speak for all projectors, especially when compared to one of the best direct view screen technologies out there at the moment.



Black is not a color, it is only zero light that means no color at all.
just like white is not a color, but all colors or in a RGB projector is a calibrated D65 amunt of RGB.
Am not a gamer my self, and only uses projector and lamp hours on movies, so using a direct view screen for hours of gaming is probably a smart thing to do. Do not know how the easy a new 77" OLED get burnins these days, but that may be a something to be a little careful with in bright static showing picture information i think.

I know OLED can show perfect black that is very impressive and it gives HDR with specular highlight that no common lamp based projector without any additional contrast chip can manage.
But I think that some of today's projectors can come rather close to what a 77" OLED can do, and can do it in a better way than the 95" vs 77" comparison can show.


Burn in is a big issue but luckily JL have chosen to cover it for £140. Otherwise I would not have even thought about buying a 77'' OLED. It would be a 77'' paperweight in 3 years the way I use my devices.


TBH I have no doubt once we get into the 120'' screen sizes, projectors become the ONLY option from a suitable viewing distance. Hence why my next purchase will hopefully be JVC

:D




also please dont let my posts misconstrue. I still think true home theatre lies with projectors because size = immersion = seeing more small details because they are bigger = tying in with big sound for more impact... everything feels 'balanced'.

I'm just talking from the smaller PJ size of 90-100'' to a 77'' display.


I think the 85'' LCDs would be more inferior to PJ because of the flaws of LCD technology (banding, halo, etc.)
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I'm not denying a light controlled projector can make your eyes squint. That is neither here nor there. Our eyes and pupils adapt.

My question is how can it re-produce the pixel level control of brightness?

I've seen even on the Epson (with a 10x inferior setup to yours), it made me squint on the high HDR scenes, but it obviously had to make the entire scene bright).

It’s the lumagen mate.

It uses a zone mapping scene by scene, in other works pixel by pixel.

Bare in mind my Sony has crazy amount of light output, but without the lumagen it’s not even close in comparison.

I don’t know how it works, I don’t care how it works tbh, I just know it does.

Take wonder woman’s rope in the scene where she breaks into the building killing all of the guards, it’s a really dull scene. But the rope literally pops off the screen like it’s glowing BRIGHT orange, almost like my screen is going to catch fire.

If you saw it, you’d change your mind, I would be 100% sure if that.

I’m comparing against Sony’s best LCD and OLED screens they do, so why would I say different?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
It’s the lumagen mate.

It uses a zone mapping scene by scene, in other works pixel by pixel.

Bare in mind my Sony has crazy amount of light output, but without the lumagen it’s not even close in comparison.

I don’t know how it works, I don’t care how it works tbh, I just know it does.

Take wonder woman’s rope in the scene where she breaks into the building killing all of the guards, it’s a really dull scene. But the rope literally pops off the screen like it’s glowing BRIGHT orange, almost like my screen is going to catch fire.

If you saw it, you’d change your mind, I would be 100% sure if that.

I’m comparing against Sony’s best LCD and OLED screens they do, so why would I say different?


Oh yeah I have no doubt. Just wondering how does a video processor control the pixel level brightness of a projector.

I thought by definition a projector cannot control brightness at a pixel level control like an OLED can.

I have no doubt about your observations because I saw these with MADVR on my Epson 9400. but its not the same thing I'm trying to describe which the OLED reproduces.

But Epson 9400 is a lower contrast PJ to the bigger ones.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Oh yeah I have no doubt. Just wondering how does a video processor control the pixel level brightness of a projector.

I thought by definition a projector cannot control brightness at a pixel level control like an OLED can.

I have no doubt about your observations because I saw these with MADVR on my Epson 9400. but its not the same thing I'm trying to describe which the OLED reproduces.

But Epson 9400 is a lower contrast PJ to the bigger ones.

Agreed mate, the epson is a very good projector, but not even close to the Sony Laser.

I know exactly what your trying to describe, but I’m telling you that PJ can do HDR as well as a OLED if given the right environment, but 99% of people don’t have/seen this, which I’m not knocking by the way.

The only thing the OLEDs do better is black levels, although the Sony blacks are pretty good to be fair
 

sim12

Active Member
Oh yeah I have no doubt. Just wondering how does a video processor control the pixel level brightness of a projector.



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I thought by definition a projector cannot control brightness at a pixel level control like an OLED can.

I have no doubt about your observations because I saw these with MADVR on my Epson 9400. but its not the same thing I'm trying to describe which the OLED reproduces.

But Epson 9400 is a lower contrast PJ to the bigger ones.
Sadly I think you are understand how to achieve the hdr incorrectly on a pj, you've described liking to use your pj in a dimly lit room, now don't get me wrong do what pleases you but it's gonna tough to come on here with enthusiasts who have spent literally a small fortune correctly light controlling a room and tell them that you cant get hdr to work right on a epson9400, @Luminated for one regularly posts some fantastic images from their 9400 which kinda contradicts your views proving the image quality that can be achieved.
An OLED TV can control colour and brightness at a pixel level (resulting in some specular highlight detail on pitch black screen, so for example, I can be blinded by a fire on the left side of the screen whilst the other half of the screen is essentially off).

How does the Lumagen (+any consumer projector) replicate that? Sure it cannot. Sure it can create a pleasing image, but the actual brightness from those pixels, I struggle to understand from a technological perspective how it does that.

Because doesn't the PJ technically have to open its iris to reproduce the bright fire?
You would really need the likes of @jfinnie to chime in and explain such things.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Sadly I think you are understand how to achieve the hdr incorrectly on a pj, you've described liking to use your pj in a dimly lit room, now don't get me wrong do what pleases you but it's gonna tough to come on here with enthusiasts who have spent literally a small fortune correctly light controlling a room and tell them that you cant get hdr to work right on a epson9400, @Luminated for one regularly posts some fantastic images from their 9400 which kinda contradicts your views proving the image quality that can be achieved.

You would really need the likes of @jfinnie to chime in and explain such things.


I'm not saying HDR cannot be reproduced on a projector.
I am not debating the image quality of a good projector. I had the 9400 and loved the image quality. However I'm talking about something else away from image quality.

I'm saying the aspect of specular highlight detail and pixel level extreme brightness on a certain object cannot be done on a projector like it can on an OLED because of the nature of how a PJ cannot at a pixel level cause extremely high lumens on one specific object on a screen whilst leaving none for the others.

I'm NOT stating PJs are bad or useless for HDR. I think they are good for HDR, but I think they miss that specific dimension of HDR (just like TVs miss the immersion factor of a PJ).
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I'm not saying HDR cannot be reproduced on a projector.
I am not debating the image quality of a good projector. I had the 9400 and loved the image quality. However I'm talking about something else away from image quality.

I'm saying the aspect of specular highlight detail and pixel level extreme brightness on a certain object cannot be done on a projector like it can on an OLED because of the nature of how a PJ cannot at a pixel level cause extremely high lumens on one specific object on a screen whilst leaving none for the others.

I'm NOT stating PJs are bad or useless for HDR. I think they are good for HDR, but I think they miss that specific dimension of HDR (just like TVs miss the immersion factor of a PJ).

You’re wrong mate.

You’ve only experienced a relatively low end projector in a clearly compromised room.

If you’ve seen a better projector in an ideal environment and still felt the same, then fair enough, but until then, you can’t really make a blanket call.

Let me see if @Apollo will chime in, he’s the only person to have seen my Sony/lumagen combo so far, he also has the new top of the range Sony OLED that he recently purchased.

@Owl40 is visiting mine for a demo tomorrow, ask him afterwards what he thinks.
 

sim12

Active Member
I'm not saying HDR cannot be reproduced on a projector.
I am not debating the image quality of a good projector. I had the 9400 and loved the image quality. However I'm talking about something else away from image quality.

I'm saying the aspect of specular highlight detail and pixel level extreme brightness on a certain object cannot be done on a projector like it can on an OLED because of the nature of how a PJ cannot at a pixel level cause extremely high lumens on one specific object on a screen whilst leaving none for the others.

I'm NOT stating PJs are bad or useless for HDR. I think they are good for HDR, but I think they miss that specific dimension of HDR (just like TVs miss the immersion factor of a PJ).
Not to state the obvious, but a projector only function is to create an image.

In all fairness this hdr stuff is a minefield right now at best, enthusiasts on here buy lumagen pro's and get the likes of Gordan in to calibrate because that's what's the guy does with his 10k plus calibrating toys.

Now on the flipside people can have ago at home with a cheap calibration tool such as the X-RIte i1Display Pro and do get good results via madvr but this takes some patience and understanding, but alas of all these things aren't achieved by the naked eye, but now we are jumping into calibration territory which another can of worms altogether but by all accounts needed to achieve a good standard of Hdr amongst other things.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
I do get what you're saying about what is sometimes refereed to as 'ANSI' contrast, because with a projector this is very much dependent on the room. Even a completely black pit of a room might struggle to hit 500:1 ANSI contrast and even then some projectors (JVC, maybe Sony) can't hit that figure direct from the lens, let alone from the screen. Even an LCD TV can hit over 1000:1 ANSI and I'd guess OLED might be in the 10,000s plus range. The Lumagen with a projector certainly helps give the effect though with HDR content, but only in combination with a proper base calibration for the DTM to work on top of and of course a properly black room.

However, ON/OFF contrast also has a lot of impact on low ADL content, arguably more than ANSI, so in a fully blacked out room, with zero ambient light (and ideally no equipment LEDs, etc to contaminate) then you can get fantastic dark scene performance with the right projector. Some of the better projectors can manage very respectable ON/OFF contrast, not as high as OLED, but certainly better than a lot of LED TVs. Fade to black on my slightly outdated JVC X7500 is such that you can't see anything for a few seconds. I've had friends describe is as 'almost claustrophobic' such is the effect of going from a big bright scene to complete blackness, even if only for a few seconds.

I have to admit there have been times I've thought about changing to just having a large TV (though I'd probably leave my AT screen behind to hide the LCR speakers which are above my current 50" TV). The trouble is that a large TV really dominates a room and that's something you either like or don't and I'm the later. I also don't like watching a smaller image in the dark for some reason: If we sit watching our TV in the conservatory on an evening and it gets dark, I have to turn the lights on at a certain point because it just seems to strain my eyes. That's an extreme example because it's only 40", but viewed from much closer than the main room.

No doubt that OLEDs look stunning from the ones I've seen on display in shops (probably not even set up as well as they could be either), but a projector is a totally different beast IMHO. Room for both though, just depends on what you can accomodate in terms of room size and how dark you can make it if you want to get the best out of a projector. If not, stick a TV in and call it done. The main thing is to enjoy what you're watching and a projector in a poor room becomes just about size...quantity over quality.
 

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