720p or 1080p for Freeat HD? Still confused.

Discussion in 'Satellite TV, Sky TV & FreeSat' started by lohr500, Feb 3, 2009.

Tags:
  1. lohr500

    lohr500
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    48
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Skipton
    Ratings:
    +9
    :lease:

    Just installed a 60cm dish and quad LNB, ordered my Humax Foxsat PVR from Maplin (no idea when it will arrive) and I am now thinking about the TV upgrade.

    I have read numerous posts about the difference between 1080p and 720p TVs but I am still confused.

    On a 32" TV that will only be used with Freesat HD is there any point in buying a 1080p model?

    If there were two 32" models that were identical in specification apart from the fact that one was "HD ready" and the other was "Full HD" then which would be the best match for Freesat HD?

    I don't intend to hook up a Blu-ray player as I already have a PS3 connected to a larger 1080p TV in another room.

    With plenty of bargains around for HD Ready TV's I am loathed to spend more on a 1080p if I am wasting my money.

    Any guidance would be much appreciated.

    Confused of Skipton.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  2. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    On a 32 inch TV at a normal viewing distance then 1080p wont make a difference. It is only used to its full potential on bluray and computer games.

    Nobody is broadcasting in 1080p and they wont be for any years. Even if they did you couldnt tell the difference on that size screen.

    1080p is an industry "buzz number" designed to sell units. It is rather like the mega pixels on cameras.
     
  3. lohr500

    lohr500
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    48
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Skipton
    Ratings:
    +9
    That was my conclusion, but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and I wanted to be sure before buying the wrong TV. :cool:
     
  4. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    What I would say is: if you are prepared to spend more money then it would better to get a better quality HD ready set than buy a 1080p set. Contrast ratio etc is far more important than resolution.
     
  5. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    True.

    Which isn't exactly true.

    Sky are broadcasting all movies and most other stuff in 1080i /50 with a 2:2 pull down. With a decent display that gives 1080p /25. (Blu Ray is 1080p / 24).

    So Sky at least are broadcasting effectively in 1080p.

    Freesat is being broadcast in 1080i - I can't find any information about the pull down used though by ITV and BBC.

    James
     
  6. YellowSphere

    YellowSphere
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,448
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +471
    Unfortunately, many displays cannot correctly process the 2:2 cadence on 1080i50 signals. When ITV and BBC show films, the same principle should apply, most other content will be video.

    Also, I wouldn't say definitely don't go for a 1080p set, you may find one that suits you in other ways, and is still a good performer (though, to be fair, this is more likely at the 40"+ sizes rather than 32").
     
  7. anotherjohnh

    anotherjohnh
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    102
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +7
    Unless things have changed since I was a lad, with a broadcast frame rate of 25 and interlaced scanning you don't need to do anything special regarding pulldown.

    Just scan it twice - odd and even field - then repeat with the following frames.

    Wrong runtime as it was most likely shot at 24 frames.

    Perhaps things have move on since Rank Cintel Mk2 flying spot telecine?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  8. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    You are correct of course if you are going from 24p film stock, to 1080i the 2:2 pull down makes sense (and you end up with the speed up)

    However if you source is at 1080p/50 (eg from an HD camera) the other way to generate 1080i /50 is to take a 1080p/50 and actually do alternate lines on each frame. This produces (thanks to movement between the frames) 'Twitter'.

    James
     
  9. lohr500

    lohr500
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    48
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Skipton
    Ratings:
    +9
    Thanks for all the advice so far.
    went on a trawl round the local Comet & Currys this lunchtime to see if they had any bargains.
    Nothing to be had though, so I will keep looking.
     
  10. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70

    Try john lewis, their actual prices seem a bit high but they give a genuine free 5 year guarantee.
     
  11. Derek22

    Derek22
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    246
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +18
    try richersounds, also might be worth asking if they can show you a 32inch 720p against a 1080p running the same HD source and some normal freeview stuff, You can then choose the one you like the best.

    As already said at 32inch its likely a good quality 720p set will look as good if not better than a low quality 1080p set. As long as you dont need the higher resolution fo a PC.

    Richer Sounds LCD TV Products

    Freesat HD picture quality is a very noticable step up from standard definition stuff, I cant compare directly to a 1080p blu-ray but both are a significant improvement, so comparing a 1080p blu-ray source on both will give you a fair idea. Not sure they are likely to have freesat HD setup so you can compare 720p to 1080p sets.
     
  12. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    Regardless of resolution either 1080p or just HD Ready, make sure it can handle the 2:2 Pull down. Find a review of the TV in question, it should state it.

    It doesn't matter that its 'just' for Freesat - it has to be able to handle a 1080i signal properly - not all TV's do this properly - especially older models.

    Personally for the price difference I would go for 1080p, if it is the right price range. (in other words I rather have 1080p than say an extra HDMI port). The picture will be clearer, and if you sit closer, or have better than 20/20 vision it will be even more obvious.
     
  13. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70

    Id much rather have a better contrast ratio than 1080p opn a 32 inch set. He will not see the difference and you know it.

    Resolution is the least important factor in a good a picture and 1080p on a 32 inch set is nothing short of ridiculous.

    My advice would be go for a HD ready set with the best panel, something like sharp or samsung.
     
  14. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    Just to expand on what i said about SHARP.

    I have the SHARP aquos 19 inch in the bedroom and it has the best contrast ratio and viewing angle on any LCD tv I have ever seen. It absolutely knocks spots off the 42 inch LG I have in the living room. When I buy my next living room TV it will be a sharp.

    For plasma, clearly panasonic and pioneer are the best, but for LCD I cant recommend SHARP enough. If they do a 32 inch HD ready set it will be stunning on any input he wants to give it.
     
  15. lohr500

    lohr500
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    48
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Skipton
    Ratings:
    +9
    So much info. and different views!
    Not hard to see why I was confused.

    In an ideal world I need to find a competitively priced store, with knowledgeable staff, Freesat HD on tap with 720p and 1080i signals, and a wide selection of 32" TVs.

    Then spend an afternoon actually viewing :thumbsup:

    Is this 2.2 business common on most of the current crop models?

    Cheers.
     
  16. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    To be honest im not knowledgable on the 2.2 pulldown stuff, so I will take a back seat to the more knowledgable people. For freesat though I think its an unnecessary consideration.
     
  17. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    Depends on his eyesight and viewing distance - he probably won't see the difference - but it won't hurt.

    And a 1080p set is much more likely to handle the pull:down correctly, deal with 24p correctly (should he ever get a Blu Ray player) and it doesn't have to do any scaling for Freesat.

    Many HD ready sets, especially LCD's at the smaller end of the market, don't handle those features well. And they are important as HD becomes more prevalent.
     
  18. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758

    The 2:2 pulldown gives you at least from BBC HD during movies and and C4 HD if that ever makes it (;)) a proper 1080p signal. Can't find out about ITV.

    This is not as high a quality as a Blu Ray because the bandwidth is less, but for a scenes with less action it is all but indistinguishable.

    It is done like this rather than as a straight 1080i picture as it produces fantastic results.


    If the TV doesn't handle the pulldown correctly, you can end up with judder, twitter (fussy edges to moving parts of image) and other artefacts.
     
  19. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70

    24p is an unknown to most of the HD public.

    The OP wants a good set to watch freesat on. Contrast ratio is the single most important consideration.

    He will not thank you when he has 1080p that he cant see and murky greys instead of black.

    Only higher end TVS really handle 24p properly anyway. Its a minor feature for film buffs.

    Please stop giving people bad advise and unnecessarily confusing issues.
     
  20. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    But the problem is that films on BBC HD are broadcast in 1080i50. That is not going to be converted to 24p by the TV. The only way to have 24p is by a 24p source like blu ray.

    The OP already has a blu ray running on a 1080p. The TV he wants is for freesat.
     
  21. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    And you need to do this in a room that had the same sort of lighting as your lounge - most people don't have rows of fluorescent tubes in their front rooms.

    Nearly all large displays will handle it correctly - some older models of the smaller displays may have problems.

    Personally I'd ask in the LCD section on these forums, and see what people recommend. Take a few (but not lots of) recommendations and go and have a look yourself.

    James
     
  22. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    No it will be converted to 25p. As a result you will get the quality of Blu Ray (except in fast action scenes) and 4% shorter film

    Think of it like this.

    To make a blue ray, you store a series of images each 1980x1080 at the rate of 24 a second. When you play them back you put them on the screen one after another at 24 a second.

    For a movie transmitted by BBC HD, they take that same stored series of images (1980x1080 at 24 a second), and transmit them as follows

    Frame 1 They Transmit all the odd lines of Image 1
    Frame 2 They Transmit all the even lines of Image 1
    Frame 3 They Transmit all the odd lines of Image 2
    Frame 4 They Transmit all the even lines of Image 2
    and so on.
    But they transmit at 50 frames a second.

    In the TV at the receiving end with proper pulldown, :
    It receives frame 1 - and sticks all the odd lines of image 1 in a buffer
    It recieves frame 2 - and sticks al the even lines of image 1 in a buffer
    it then displays the buffer for a 25th of a second
    It receives frame 3 - and sticks all the odd lines of image 2 in a buffer
    It recieves frame 4 - and sticks al the even lines of image 2 in a buffer
    it then displays the buffer for a 25th of a second
    and so on

    The end result is the same images displayed, but at a slighlty higher speed (25/24ths')

    Now because the encoding isn't really a series of pictures, but the differences between them (though the end result is the same), Blu Ray has the advantage in that it can encode more information about the changes as it has more data space (or bandwidth) to do so. But for scenes with little or no motion there is no difference.

    James
     
  23. pdoherty76

    pdoherty76
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,435
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +70
    Very informative post.
     
  24. anotherjohnh

    anotherjohnh
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    102
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +7
    Isn't all this "2:2 pull down" business in the context of displays just talking about a "100Hz" frame rate?

    In film context pull down is literally the number of times a frame is scanned before it is pulled down to use the next frame - you used to get things like 3:2 pull down for 16 FPS film, for instance.

    Regarding interlace flicker ("twitter") on displays, CRT's show it horribly well, but it just looks like motion blur on (25/50Hz) LCD's.
    I haven't had the opportunity to try a 100Hz LCD and CRT side by side, and probably never will now - the world has moved on, and I've retired.
     
  25. GasDad

    GasDad
    Remembered (1964-2012)

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +758
    No - its at 50hz giving 25p. Whether the display repeats each 25p full frame 4 times on 100hz panel is neither here no there. (A 50Hz display will show each full frame twice)
     
  26. Lunar Wolf

    Lunar Wolf
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Messages:
    506
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +23
    Maybe just don't buy an LG...
     

Share This Page

Loading...