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720p or 1080i?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by hornydragon, Mar 6, 2005.

  1. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    While 720p is closest to the native of Projection panels and HD Plasma (1024x768 and 1366x7666 panels) is it is not compatible with older CRT displays (more common in US than UK/Europe) 1080i is compatibile with these diaplays. The compatibility is solved by scaling, (most STB's give you the choice to output either) and 720p can give some strange effects.........
     
  2. mistycat

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    A little more. I have one sec. Remember the EU will not make a standard decision until the majority of the EU members have taken a decision and the backroom discussions have taken place, especially in relation to the most common format followed in US (720). Their major concern is a Euro std of their own, which industry is happy with. They may take a silly decision based on market protection, as many in EU feel to go in a different direction than US will create employment etc. BBC report that they cannot make a decision (and in fact have legal considerations here) until 1. 1080 problems settled, 2.Euro std established in law. Thus, any broadcasting in between will probably follow Sky (depending on political pressure) and be 720, where necessary adjusted to duel broadcast in 1080 (not an expert here on what they do,still reading. They do this in US). By the way, it will probably take 5 years for EU and BBC will probably start some programmes off in 2007 or late 2006 to get political points to take into licence fee negotiations. Expect a replay of last negotiations with reference to digital. BBC say their resources are tied up in 2008 digital switch. Thus, more cash required to get HD really going. BBC will jump though, if ITV go, after SKY has gone and thus taken an audience share. All starts with people purchasing tv sets really.
     
  3. mistycat

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    Horneydragon, don't get upset! Just an interesting political situation as far as I am concerned. It will take some time for the situation to show itself, but politically, the BBC is likely to follow Sky. See the latest report into Sky plans on Home Cinema Choice (I think). Sky has recommended to their channel suppliers to use 720p, and the majority will. Austn (I travel there often as I grew up there) are using STB's which do both, and realistically we will here (see BBC recommendations in 2004 white paper into 1080/720 where they tested a Tosh STB from Oz). The difference for an average person plugging in an STB I am not sure of, but family in Oz cannot see difference, and I couldn't when in a store on Gold Coast (south of Brisbane). Australians are starting slowly to purchase HDTV compliant sets now, but only as they replace their existing sets. You are right, 7,9,10 networks (Oz advertising private networks) have tried to go for 1080 for a wide coverage) but standard not set. Thus, when I was there, whether or not you owned a 720 or 1080 set made no difference. My cousin said, 'ah, what!' when we were watching Oz Rules footy with a STB and his plasma, only capable of 720 from what I saw. As I say, no expert and not anal on subject. Personally, I don't care much, but do not expect a common standard in the next couple of seasons of CSI!!! lol :D
     
  4. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    but the 720p 1080i debate has very little to do with the regionalisation and a common standard for europe is useless, there currently isnt one mixture of PAL B/G/I and SECAM formats. the main sticking point is Europe running 50Hz and US running 60 Hz.....What frequecy does Austrailia run?
    Things have moved on a long way since the days of PAL v NTSC...........

    While a common standard for Europe might be nice idea for the EU i am sure that Canal+, BSkyB, and all the other major broadcasters will do what they wish (there is little point for HD for the non Subscribing masses as they generally not care) and the UK has already moved to a FTV Mpeg 2 platform at SD.........
     
  5. mistycat

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    Good points ' the dark underbelly of humanity' unfortunately, harminisation laws and the latest batch of Euro law dictates that it is a priority within EU to develop a common standard for all member countries and the emphasis is on enacting standard, if one is a member state. It really comes down to a political and legal situation, which BBC acknowledges and makes comment on after their tests, detailed in their white paper report, delivered late last year. By the way Aust uses same dig format as UK, PaL and same Hz as UK. Uses A2 stereo.

    Another issue is the industry wishes a common world standard! World meaning of adopting the most common US format in general use, which encourages sales. Sorry, as I first saw HD in NYC on demo and have loved the idea of it since (10yrs ago). I remember the sign saying 3d without 3d!!!
     
  6. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    I'm not upset i was just noting that i was taking this set oiff its original topic, dont take the face of the the smilie holding the placard as mine.

    HD TV is in a huge mess (UK at least) but as far as i can see no one can put a rubber stamp to this and slove it. while on a device with 768 vertical lines there may be no difference (visible to the human watching it) between 720p and 1080i on a 1080 line display it may be noticably different and when you get to a 1080p device (some around) it may be very very different.....so a standard for technology now.. or one that will last for the next 10 years?
     
  7. mistycat

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    Euro market designed legally to encourage masses to undertake commonality I am afraid. Also, to support industry that is consumer and enviromentally friendly. Thus, standards exchanged for what industry wants, with concessions from industry on EU social goals and targets. Whoops, reality. :rolleyes:
     
  8. mistycat

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    Thanks, mess in Oz to. That is why STBs are getting better and better at using both formats. BBC acknowledges this is the way they will probably go (the Austn way). This means STBs taking both formats and broadcasters choosing (until Euro standard will clear it up). This means, due to eco pressure of Sky on ITV etc, they will go the way of Sky. This means 720p, with some broadcasting in natural 1080i. Must get shopping now!!!!

    Nice chat
     
  9. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    WEll while i dont know much about the legal aspects what i can say is chances they will end up with a standard that has very little use will not be implemented (have they approached the MPEG2 MPEG4 issue yet???) moves the goal posts on 720p 1080i its about time they woke up and realised that is was a global market not a european one!
     
  10. mistycat

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    Horny, you are right, my good man! I am back from shopping! BBC has said in reports that MPEG is issue and I think they said they want to go to MPEG4. Compression is an issue, as BBC has invested it's future in multi-channel and thus compression raises it's head when chatting about capacity to carry HD signal. This is where BBC will ask for more money and hopes to work with a EU standard and other EU countries. Expect licence fee to jump £10-20 to pay for it all. HD gives BBC sway in negotiations and they will be watching closely for how many people purchase HD sets etc. In the end, the scary bit is Hollywood will dictate a standard. They want cheap and best format for movies. You should note this is probably why (my opinion) Sky has gone with 720p. Sky comment this is the best format for general TV and movies. I am not an expert on the technology so maybe you could explain the diff for me, but I would expect other broadcasters to follow, using 1080i for sports, with auto-switching STB's (as in Aust.). A singe standard, probably 1080i is, politically, many years off (probably 5). This is why I purchased the Sammy 50 at a good price and have not waited to spend more on the Sammy 1920 x1080 next year. Contacts say this will retail for £3200 or so, due to all retailers wanting to make 'rip off' Britain (or treasure island as Austn's call it) cash until HD catches on in about two or three years when BBC licence issue settled in 2006/07 negotiations. I would expect BBC will want to rollout HD during new licence period, specifically 2008 to 2012 (same time as all digital). Australia went HD (only partly so far, but quite good) instead of multi channel. Now ABC has announced multi channel, on top of 1040 minimal yearly HD broadcast commitment. Realistically, HD in Oz, even The States, for native HD outside of sports and some major events, will not be normal till 2010 I would say. Even in the US, there are many problems (although it can be great). I think 'upscaling' is the term. This is the majority HD in Australia at present, and I think in the US, the few HD channels (some regional affiliates) have to do the same, except when CBS etc are broadcasting native content. Thus, BBC is building a library of HD content so, I would say, BBC One can go live, native, in HD in the future. This would help BBC in negotiations ref licence. As for all channels, Sky will change things as they say they will get 10000000 subscribers by offering HD. It will quickly spread I would say. More so than Sky+, as this was not a great leap in tech. You can expect BBC to be forced, as well as ITV, 4, 5 into some HD broadcasting as of late next year. This would mean HD STB's on the market in late 2006, to coinside with announcements (by the way, when licence fee neg's start lol). The good news is, once it begins though, the rollout would be quick and uncontrolled. BBC will be forced to play catch up, with some HD broadcasting in 2007, maybe announcing tests when Sky has had six to nine months to bed in. As I said, the Austn experience all over again. We are where Aust was in 2000/2001. Maybe even 2002. 2003 came national HD requirements, then more in 2004.
     
  11. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    There is a lot more to making HD than broadcast. One part of the problem is hollywood want a protected pirate proof system that they can charge more money for, note not better quality. CRT cameras form Sony and JVC can do 1080i, CCD (digital) at the moment do 720p (post production suites all need to be upgraded for this and MPEG4).....some outside broadcasts (BBC HD truck) are using 1080i camreas (easier to convert to 576i for broadcast) News 24 from BBC is where i think you will get the first simulcast of SD and HD from BBC (via Sat). Film shot on 35mm is another big issue as converting from 35mm to 720p and 1080i is different, then you have lucasfilm who have gone all HD digital at 720p i think. UK wont get HD terrestrial until after analogue switch off 2010 so there is plenty of time..... but one big mess and the new kit is very expensive!!!! have a look at Sony HD camera systems as well as JVC and Panny and the new HD consumer units!!!

    It doesnt really matter what the EU lay down as a huge amount of the decisions have been taken out of their hands and scaling will occur probably several times along the path wouldn't it be nice if what the camera saw your TV displayed???
     
  12. jkirkebo

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    Technically, a mix of 720p and 1080i would be the best, at least until we get 1080p60.

    The reason for this are:

    All new HDTV display devices are progressive. That means interlaced content like 1080i must be deinterlaced. Only 1080i material originated from film can be perfectly deinterlaced, back to it's original 24hz form. Thus, movies shown in 1080i60 will be deinterlaced to 1080p24, if it's shown in 1080i50 we'll get 1080p25 (same as old PAL 4% speed-up).

    Video-originated material shown in 1080i can not be perfectly deinterlaced. Most sets will just drop every other frame so we actually get 540p60. This is no good, so anything originated from videocameras should be shown in 720p60 or 720p50 which is already progressive. This incudes all sports, news and most anything else except movies and most series.

    So, to sum it up:

    Please show movies and most TV-series in 1080i50 or preferably 1080i60.
    Everything else should use 720p50 or preferably 720p60.
     
  13. cerebros

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    I'd actually expect Sky HD to spread more slowly than Sky+, for the simple facts that you're going to need a new TV to make the best out of it (assuming you don't already own a HDMI or DVI-HDCP compatible TV) and that the public in general aren't even aware of HD. Given that you're still looking at £1,200+ for a compatible TV at the moment (please feel free to correct me if I've missed any compatible sets costing less), plus probably £300 or £400 for the Sky STB (unless they heavily subsidise it), plus whatever additional levy Sky impose on the HD service, I think that will drastically restrict initial growth.

    I wouldn't expect to see rapid growth of take-up of Sky's HD service until:
    a) The public are educated about (and accept) the benefits of HD
    b) The price of compliant TV's hits £500
    c) Sky do the STB's for a reasonable price for new and upgrading subscribers.
     
  14. pdundas

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    It's not that much in a mess. Broadcasts will be in either 720p or 1080i at 50/25fps with possibly 1080p50 to come in the next 10 years or so. Compression will be MPEG4. These are all known facts. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be 1080p native.

    There have been endless test on 720p v 1080i and no general agreement has ever been reached which is why both have ended up common standards.
     
  15. pdundas

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    UK HD will consist of the Sky boxes on the market in 2006. Delivery will be by satellite in MPEG4 and 720p OR 1080i (at broadcaster's choice). Sky control the satellite platform, the BBC will have to follow the standards they set (I'm sure the BBC have had influence on the Sky platform). Hollywood are not dictating a standard - they film mainly on 24fps 35mm celluliod - what the hell has this got to do with HDTV broadcast standards? Sky and the BBC can broadcast in 4000p for all Hollywood care as long as it can't be pirated. Why on earth would a Hollywood studio care whether Sky uses 720p, 1080i or 1080p? They'll provide them with whatever they want as long as they pay for it.

    If the EU want to set a standard it's too late. France and Germany start HD this year, the UK in 2006. It's all been decided.

    HD is not new. Standards were set years ago - its just as case of picking which ones to use. Boxes are designed, transmission options decided and HD is rolling out on broadcast and pre-recorded in the next 24 months across Europe. Most of the issues being discussed were decided 2 years ago.
     
  16. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Just to explain this thread started life here: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194287 but went wildly off topic so i asked a mod to make it a thread in its own right.... so its starts a bit odd....se post #4 from mistycat which is where the HD debate starts.

    And thanks to which ever mod took the time to sort it all out!
     
  17. Stephen Neal

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    Dunno where you get the idea that modern 1080i cameras are "CRT" (i.e. tubed) based. Tubed cameras ceased to be used or manufactured in any real standard in the early 90s. The 1250 (1152 active) HDTV tests the Beeb did at Wimbledon quickly moved from tubed to CCD Philips cameras in the early 90s, and all the 1080 line cameras currently on sale are CCD based. (The cameras themselves can often operate in 1080/24-30p as well as 1080/50i and 1080/60i. They switch between interlaced and progressive at 1080lines using field/frame line-averaging clocking out techniques. They have 1080 progressive sensors and use offset line averaging to deliver the two interlaced fields in interlace mode)

    Sure the original Japanese 1125 (1030-1080 active) HD system started off with tubed cameras, as did the European 1250 (1152 active) and US 1050 (960 active) formats - but this was in the 1970s through to the 80s.

    By the 90s HDTV CCD cameras were available for 1080i stuff (which was a slight tweak to the 1125 Japanese standard)

    There are even 4000+ line CCD cameras in use in the US and Europe that can switch between averaging different numbers of these lines to create a 1080 or 720 line "native" image - without the requirement for cross conversion. (Thomson/Philips LDK6000 mk II World cam if you want to google it) It uses DPMS - Dynamic Pixel Management System.

    AIUI the BBC run Sony standard def cameras in their OB trucks, and have gone for Sony HD cameras as they are really happy with the various camera control systems (and I expect there is a degree of compatibility with things like RCP/MSUs etc.). These are 1080i "in camera" (though can crossconvert to 720p for output if you spec that option). I don't think there is a compelling argument that 1080i is easier to downconvert to 576i than 720/50p. I think you'll find most HD down-converters will do both, and both 720p and 1080i native cameras usually also offer SD 576 or 480i outputs (for 50 and 60Hz respectively).

    The Philips Worldcam can run in both standards, as well as SD, after all...

    Lucasfilm have been using 1080p - the Sony CineAlta system or similar (i.e. 1080/24p) AIUI - 720/60p is useless for feature "film" origination (no point in capturing at that rate only to ditch the extra 36 frames!), and 1280x720 is too soft for cinema blow-up (1920x1080 is apparently marginal)

    I'd expect BBC Sport, BBC Documentaries, BBC Music and BBC Drama to be an early source of HD material - shows like Later with Jools, The Last Night of the Proms, Carols from Kings, Natural History stuff, the forthcoming Bleak House, The Grid (co produced with TNT), Rockface (co produced with Columbia Tristar I think) are already shot and edited in HD. If Sky are to shoot Premiership matches in HD - I would expect the Beeb to want to do Match of the Day in HD at some point soon as well, and things like the 2008 Olympics and the World Cup?

    Whilst I wouldn't be surprised to see news studios being re-equipped for HD (or so that they can be easily upgraded for HD) when they are next being re-designed, I don't see the "field crews" and "live trucks" being upgraded that quickly -after all the bulk of news agency material is 4:3 SDTV (usually low quality compressed)

    My guess is that a satellite channel - either a BBC HD (kind of a best of BBC One, Two, Three and Four channel) or an automatic BBCi flip out to HD would be a possibility?

    Sony and Thomson/Philips/Grassvalley (also Ikegami) are the best places for decent HD production kit. They both have good production ranges - from cameras through switchers to VTRs.

    Panasonic, Hitachi and JVC have always been regarded as a joke in the broadcast camera industry - though Panasonic have had success with their D3/D5/HD D5 VTR format, and their DVCPro stuff (though DVCam from Sony is often thought to have the better camera front-ends in camcorder terms)

    Panasonic have got the Winter Olympics in Turin contract I believe - though how many cameras they will actually be supplying - who knows... I suspect most facilities in use will be using pre-owned kit - like Sony HD cameras. (Turin is being covered heavily in HD AIUI)

    JVC and Hitachi are seen as a bit "low rent". The BBC DID use the JVC D9 VTR format for Antiques Roadshow for a while (it offers decent quality at low cost) - but the JVC camcorders were appalling apparently, and stuck out in comparison to the Sony cameras used for the multicamera sequences (I could tell them apart easily at home).

    Yep - I suspect that a lot of channels broadcasting in 720/50p - if that is chosen - will be fed from 1080/50i or 1080/25p source material.
     
  18. hornydragon

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    I am no expert on the broadcast end so i stand corrected (the camcorder comment was not meant in relation to use for broadcast LOL) i did think that there were 1080i CRT cameras being used (although i knew of higher res CCD i didnt think the data transfer system were up to the job yet for video use. have had a look at the Sony/Panny/JVC broadcast sites as well as the Thomson/Grassvalley (what an odd name) one and the Tandberg and Astra sites tho not for a few months (will do when i have a week to kill.........)
     
  19. Stephen Neal

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    I don't think you'll find any reference to tubed cameras anywhere on any broadcast manufacturer's websites - CCDs killed of tubes at both SD and HD by the early-to-mid 90s.

    I remember that there was a mix of CCD (then quite new) and tubed HD kit (not looking too special) at Albertville for the Winter Olympics in 1992 - and I think Barcelona. However VERY soon after the CCDs took over.

    The first HD stuff I saw in the late 80s was from 3 tubed KCH1000s (Philips Plumbicon) - and looked great for its time, but the HD CCDs I saw less than 5 years later looked so much better. Data transfer wasn't the real issue with HD CCDs - it was building the chips reliably (early ones failed quite quickly with stuck pixels AIUI), and making them sensitive enough so that the cameras didn't need more light than their SD equivalents, and didn't generate excessive video noise.

    If camera technology is of interest - then the Sony, ThomsonGrassValley and Ikegami sites are worth keeping an eye on. Ikegami seem to have lost their way a bit in Europe I think. Philips (now Thomson but still Philips camera tech) and Sony seem to be the most popular in "real studios" and "real OBs" - though the BBC have bought a lot of the cheap Thomsons (real Thomsons) for their 16:9 regional centres.

    Thomson (a previously state-owned French company) used to make their own cameras, vision mixers etc. (The main BBC TV Centre studios are universally Thomson 1657 based at the moment.) However they purchased the Philips (itself formed out of Philips and Bosch) broadcast camera and vision mixer etc. divisions, and then also merged/purchased the Grass Valley Group (mainly the vision mixer division) from Tektronix.

    Suffice to say that the Thomson camera range is now pretty much made up of Philips cameras (only the low-cost Thomson digital triax model survives I believe), and their vision mixer range has pretty much been replaced by Grass Valley and Philips/BTS devices...
     
  20. thegeby

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    Oh Dear, Oh Dear, you're really coming out swinging, fellows. Just to set a few things straight. There will be no EU law setting the standard, just as there was none for DVB-T. There is already a request for a standard from the DVB consortium to the standards organisation ETSI. When adopted this is in no way legally binding, but given that a) it in an extension of the present DVB standard and b) there is a need for a common system in Europe, I would expect it to be used.

    This standard specifies that MPEG2 is mandatory for SD (and by inference in HD), while MPEG4 AVC is optional for SD but mandatory in HD. All refers to DVB receivers, i.e. you can use MPEG2 if you want to in your HD transmission, but the receiving DVB HD box is double standard. As you can fit 2 MPEG4 channels in a single MPEG2 space and radio spectrum is becoming increasingly valuable. the trend is to MPEG4.

    The only advantage of MPEG2 is that it will be off patent in a few years....
     
  21. Abit

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    The most common format followed in America is not 720, it is 1080.
     
  22. Abit

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    Your information on American HD is extremely dated and incorrect.

    HD is "normal" for nearly all standard network primetime programming.
    In most cities free over the air HD programming is offered over ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, WB, UPN, PBS.

    With satellite, for an additional $10, you get five more HD channels (Discovery HD, ESPN HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, and Universal HD).

    In addition to that, all the standard movie channels offer an HD version, to include HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, Starz, and Encore.

    TNT, INHD, INHD2, Playboy, and Spice, are also offered in various markets. Cable is similar but can vary from market to market.

    There is also pay per view in HD and one of the satellite providers offers an additional sports package that covers 100 NFL football games.

    Finally, I have also never seen "upscaling" of SD programming in an attempt to pass it off as HD by any broadcaster, nor have I ever heard of it. If it's ABC or FOX it is in 720P and everyone else is typically 1080.
     
  23. beeblebrox12

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    That is not entirely correct. Technically speaking all network programming on the network HD channels outside of primetime is upconverted 4:3 SD. Jay Leno is HD in its normal 11:35 slot, but 4:3 SD when repeated later the same night. If your definition of SD programming being "passed on as HD" applies only to 16:9 material - there's lots of that too - almost half of the PBS-HD shows are like that. Even some movies on HBO/Showtime are obviously converted from SD or something like that, but definitely not true HD.
    But, overall, it's great. Since people do most of their viewing during primetime, and popular sports and special events like award shows on the weekends are in HD as norm, HD-equipped people can really enjoy up to 100% of thier viewing menu in HD.
     
  24. Rimmer

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    Don't forget SuperVolcano! Coming to a TV screen near you... in glorious SD. Oh the irony. Sometimes I wonder what the licence fee is for... so the BBC can make programmes that people in other countries can see in high quality?;)

    Just curious: why is Jay Leno in 4:3 SD when repeated? Are you talking about re-runs of old shows?
     
  25. Goose74

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    My personal guess is that since blue ray / HD-DVD will be 1080p we will find an increased demand for 1080p and it will become the defacto standard.
    Once the public has 1080p they wont want interlacing or lower res. Personally I have seen some 720p transport streams that far outshine 1080i but then I have also seen some glorious 1080i...
     
  26. cerebros

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    How will the public, AKA Joe Bloggs, know the difference between 1080p and 720p & 1080i? Even assuming their screen has 1080 line native resolution and will accept 1080p, as it will already be deinterlacing 1080i in order to display it (assuming we all end up watching HD on LCD or Plasma since the number of HD CRT sets available here can be counted on one hand (and with no hands if you count those with DVI-HDCP or HDMI inputs)) I doubt many would notice any difference between a 1080p and 1080i source.
     
  27. beeblebrox12

    beeblebrox12
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    It's a repeat of the show from the same evening, but later that same night (early morning hours). It might be just on the NBC affiliate that my sat provider is carrying, but it is a fact and I don't know why they do it. Maybe they don't have a night shift person to control what's shown on the HD channel late at night and they don't bother showing anything in HD :)
     
  28. Abit

    Abit
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    I don't think you understand what I meant by my post, and in regards to what was being claimed in the post that I was responding to.

    Whether a program is shown at a later time in SD (4:3 or 16:9) or if a program is shown as 16:9 but in SD has nothing to do with SD content being passed off as HD.

    Like I said, I've have never seen nor heard of that occuring in America. The only place where I've heard of SD programming being passed off as HD is a channel in Australia.

    There is also no mistaking whether something is being shown in HD or not.
     
  29. Abit

    Abit
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    In my part of the country the second Jay Leno shown that same night is a repeat but always of an older show. The same goes for Conan.
     
  30. Abit

    Abit
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    I have yet to see in practice the best of 720P programming looking better than the best of 1080i. 1080i looks obviously better with more apparent resolution.

    I think the practical and viewable resolution increase of 1080i over 720P greatly negates the progressive advantage in comparing those two resolutions. Maybe a better argument would be 1080i against 1080P?
     

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