7.1 with small 5.1 plus 2 floorstanders?

PJLOVER

Active Member
Hi
I have a Yamaha rx-v773 and a 100inch screen.
I will probably need front presence according to Yamaha to give lift to the centre.

I have a 5.1 set of kef kht 5005.2 with HTB2SE SUB

I also have 2 kef 2005.2 eggs on stands,
a couple of hkts 7 sats with wall/table attachments
and 2 x monitor audio MA202 floorstanders

My room is about 14ft x11ft and can only have stands behind sofa because window are behind.

I am considering using maybe some backs as I have enough speakers(probably the eggs) but cant use at the same time as front presence .

My question is what would be the best position for each speaker?

Will I be ok with MA202 as left and right with 5005.2 centre or would it be best l/c/r all 5005.2?

MA202 Product Features
: British mountain / 40Hz to 20KHz / 8 ohms / 90dB / 15 ~ 100W

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
 

PSM1

Distinguished Member
Personally I would have the same make and model across the front 3 to ensure a good front soundstage. That said, since you have the speakers already then try the ma with kef centre to see how it sounds to you.
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
PSM1 said:
Personally I would have the same make and model across the front 3 to ensure a good front soundstage. That said, since you have the speakers already then try the ma with kef centre to see how it sounds to you.

At the moment my projector is down till I put up another. So limited display , as in no osd other than on av receiver.
I have the 5005.2 centre and the 2 ma setup. A 5005.2 on top of each ma angled up to act like a front presence as have no stands or anyway to hang other than drilling.
The 2005.2 as surrounds.
Sounds pretty good but think surrounds should be 5005.2???
The extra bass is good from the fronts as goes down to 40hz. And many on here telling me better to have them set to large to get full range .
I do have 2 subs around the 30hz mark though.
In 7channel stereo music setting sounds pretty good.
But seeing as the 5005.2 are from a £1.5k package should I really be using them as l/r and not wasting on front presence?
 
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PSM1

Distinguished Member
The general advice would be to set your fronts to small and have the crossover set at around 80Hz. Then let the sub(s) do the heavy bass. This will take some load off the amp and front speakers which should clear up the mid range so giving an improvement in sound quality.
Will you be able to get the front presence speakers mounted higher? If not then I would suggest not having them. The addition of extra speakers above 5.1 really only gives benefits if you can get the speakers mounted in the correct locations. If this is not possible then often it is better to stick to less speakers but in more ideal locations. The same could be said with mixing and matching speakers if they are not a good tonal match. Sometimes less is more!!!
What subs do you have? Setting up one sub can be tricky in a room, setting up 2 can add even more complications. If one is much better than the other it is often better just to run the good one. If you have 2 the same this really gives you no gains except a little more volume. The benefits of 2 subs only comes if you have issues with bass in your room i.e. uneven levels as you move around the room.
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
Well is there any harm letting the fronts using their intended range? I have heard no real science behind this . Well more from the if they are large pick large camp.
I will drill when it's decided , this kinda hurts as in a few months may be renting it out but having a back op soon so will be stuck at home for 2 months.
The presence are in an ok demo position as angled up and they are uniQ so should disperse sound.
I have the Kef htb2se(30hz) as main sub and a hk ts-11sub (25hz) which more of a monster and may put on a 1/4 as it really is a beast compared to Kef.
I also have a ts-7 sub I think these are quite underrated .
It seems a waste to use the Kef as presence???
But also feel the floor standers will do a better job as mains?
I think 100-120hz may be the crossover point with the Kef.
 
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PSM1

Distinguished Member
I would just use the hk ts-11 sub as it is the better of the subs you have.
What science have the large camp given to justify putting them as large?
Although a floorstander will go down to say 40Hz there is some roll off and it will be working hard to get down to that. While a sub is designed to produce the low stuff so will be more comfortable down there. By setting the floorstanders to small and having a crossover around 80Hz you take this heavier load off the floorstanders. This means they are free to produce the frequencies they excel at and this will/should clear up the mid range. Again since you have all the equipment try them set to small and large and see which sound you prefer. If you prefer them large then go with that.
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
PSM1 said:
I would just use the hk ts-11 sub as it is the better of the subs you have.
What science have the large camp given to justify putting them as large?
Although a floorstander will go down to say 40Hz there is some roll off and it will be working hard to get down to that. While a sub is designed to produce the low stuff so will be more comfortable down there. By setting the floorstanders to small and having a crossover around 80Hz you take this heavier load off the floorstanders. This means they are free to produce the frequencies they excel at and this will/should clear up the mid range. Again since you have all the equipment try them set to small and large and see which sound you prefer. If you prefer them large then go with that.

I have and prefer the fuller sound ... I think .
The manufacturers such as Yamaha and audyssey have spent a lot of money on setup systems which includes subs.
Even with the option of allowing the floor standers l/r to go full range as others use sub.
That's quite good as my sats probably need sub to go 100-120.
Floor standers too have been designed to get the most out of them at quite an expense. Shame not to use them to full potential.
I'm going to test the 5005.2 now as l/r in straight allowing the sub to help to compare.
If I had some cheap 5005.2 stands (only Kef made ) that would help plus I think it is suppose to help with their lower range.
The difficulty in my setup is testing the surrounds ,backs ( can only use the 2005.2 as have stands they sound good though) and front presence.
Annoyingly I think fp is only using 40% of other speakers and feel its a waste to use decent ones on it...well my most expensive.
I am really looking for some confirmation on benefits of swapping 2005.2 with 5005.2 as surrounds and/or even L/R.
What do you think? Have you heard any?
I need to get rid of at least 3 speaker systems lol.
 
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Pugs1

Well-known Member
The reason for still setting your fronts to small is that a sub should go down to 20hz, if your front speakers are only capable of 40hz, your loosing a lot of intended low end grunt..simples. Why not try a crossover of 60hz and work from that. Thats what I do with PMCs which are capable of 28hz.

The only benefit of keeping them full range is for stereo music
 
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PJLOVER

Active Member
Pugs1 said:
The reason for still setting your fronts to small is that a sub should go down to 20hz, if your front speakers are only capable of 40hz, your loosing a lot of intended low end grunt..simples. Why not try a crossover of 60hz and work from that. Thats what I do with PMCs which are capable of 28hz.

The only benefit of keeping them full range is for stereo music

But the sub still takes them on and you can just adjust the sub level??? Simples...squark
 

PSM1

Distinguished Member
You are also confusing a specification for a designed comfortable limit. The lower frequency response is often quoted at -3 or even -6dB (sometimes even worse) which means it can reach that frequency but at a reduced volume. If you look at the flat frequency response, with no roll off, then it will be a fair bit higher. The reason is that the manufacturer wants to make their speaker seem as good as possible on paper and a wide frequency response can do this. This is why taking some of the load off them can and does give benefits since you put the working range more into its comfort zone. By doing this it clears the sound up. So you are not wasting any performance you have paid for and in fact are letting the speaker perform as well as they can while letting a speaker designed for the low stuff to excel at what it was designed to do. So do not see setting them to small as not using them to their full potential as it can be the opposite.
 

Pugs1

Well-known Member
But the sub still takes them on and you can just adjust the sub level??? Simples...squark

You asked for advice and everybody is giving you the same ideas, why all the negative vibes my man, take it or leave it..simples
 
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PJLOVER

Active Member
Pugs1 said:
You asked for advice and everybody is giving you the same ideas, why all the negative vibes my man, take it or leave it..simples

I appreciate any input but everyone is giving advice about subs not what I ask about ... Placement and which of my speakers to use that I have.
I do appreciate all input... No negative vibes I studied physics and I just want to hear clear evidence to why to do something .... It's not meant to be a malicious way just a "can you give me any factual information way".

Lfe is maybe like RBE in projectors,some people are more sensitive than others and maybe when low frequencies are broken up over 2 different units some people can tell and it's position . By telling I don't just mean hearing....feeling too.

I tested in 2.1 , 2.2 ,7.2 7channel stereo and plxii last night.
Trouble is I can feel bass from front which is nice with the MA the Kef are much brighter and obviously have a much higher cut off point .
Wish I had 2 identical rooms to test in.
I feel the floor standers round the sound off more as the the fuller range but the Kef has 2 different sounds going on(in comparison) with the sub .., not that it's bad .
 
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Pugs1

Well-known Member
Ok, thats good. At the end of the day it's what your happy with, so go with that. Maybe just give it a go with your speakers set to small and the crossovers set at 60hz and go from there. If your happy with full range then go for it:smashin:
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
Pugs1 said:
Ok, thats good. At the end of the day it's what your happy with, so go with that. Maybe just give it a go with your speakers set to small and the crossovers set at 60hz and go from there. If your happy with full range then go for it:smashin:

I think I have on 80-100 at the moment and will probably change to 100-120 when I put projector back up.
From what I remember the yam 773 allows designated large to play full range .
Anyway I'll play around and thanks again.
Would be nice to hear from some KEF owners

Also to be fair I should really state that my subs are are to the sides sat back of room as this may have an impact.
 
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PJLOVER

Active Member
Looking through forums and this made sense to me

Person1
As far as your subwoofer, have it set somewhere above the crossover you decide on for the speakers. You want an overlap so you don't miss out on frequencies. I'd say set the sub to 100hz-120hz & leave it. If you set it lower than the speakers then you'll have a hole in the sound.

Example: if your speakers are set to 80hz & sub is set to 60hz then theoretically you will have a 20hz gap. So I recommend setting the sub to its highest available crossover level.

Person2
Not quite.

The subwoofer setting you are referring to is the low pass filter for the LFE channel. The LFE channel is the ".1" on a DVD, and is reserved for low frequency effects. This channel is only sent to the subwoofer (when one is specified in the AVR set-up menu).

Since the LFE channel is only sent to the subwoofer, the set-up menu in the AVR is asking how high do you want to allow the LFE channel to play before low passing it. This menu option in the AVR is separate and independent from the speaker/subwoofer crossover frequency that you select for each speaker channel.

In practice, there is very little content in the LFE channel above 80 Hz. However, we occasionally see bass in the LFE channel up to 100-110 Hz. More to the point, the encoding spec for DVDs allows content in the LFE channel up to 120 Hz (at which point it is digitally brick-walled).

So in order to capture everything which could theoretically be present in the LFE channel, this AVR menu option (commonly referred to as 'LPF for LFE') should always be set to 120 Hz. This is usually the default setting on the AVR.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations
SVS
www.svsound.com
[email protected]
 

PSM1

Distinguished Member
The reason for an 80Hz setting on the crossover is that is generally regarded that as you get above 80Hz you can start to locate the sound. Hence if you are sensitive too it then setting the crossover to 100Hz may mean you can start to 'hear' the sub and where it is. If you had the sub at the front between the front speakers then it may still sound like one sound. However, if it is located away from the front speakers and a highish crossover value then it may start to sound like 2 sources with the sound becoming dislocated.
In terms of which speakers to use I would always look to use the same speakers (make/model) across the front 3 (and if going for front heights then across all 5 front speakers) to ensure a consistent sound stage. Although less important to match fronts to rears I would always recommend the same make/model there too. Since you have all the speakers already try a few combinations and stick with what sounds best to you. I also still do not think I would have front heights unless I could place them where they are supposed to be placed, on top of the floorstanders facing up is far from ideal in my eyes.
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
PSM1 said:
The reason for an 80Hz setting on the crossover is that is generally regarded that as you get above 80Hz you can start to locate the sound. Hence if you are sensitive too it then setting the crossover to 100Hz may mean you can start to 'hear' the sub and where it is. If you had the sub at the front between the front speakers then it may still sound like one sound. However, if it is located away from the front speakers and a highish crossover value then it may start to sound like 2 sources with the sound becoming dislocated.
In terms of which speakers to use I would always look to use the same speakers (make/model) across the front 3 (and if going for front heights then across all 5 front speakers) to ensure a consistent sound stage. Although less important to match fronts to rears I would always recommend the same make/model there too. Since you have all the speakers already try a few combinations and stick with what sounds best to you. I also still do not think I would have front heights unless I could place them where they are supposed to be placed, on top of the floorstanders facing up is far from ideal in my eyes.

I understand that . It is temporary however effective (to test) and does create a very absorbing atmosphere in 7 channel stereo setting with music .
Just unfortunate one has to drill to test.
Shame the .1 channel is lowered if lowering crossover.
Yamaha said any speaker will do for heights though.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Shame the .1 channel is lowered if lowering crossover.
Why do you say this? The .1 LPF setting is separate from the speaker crossover setting. On amps that don't have a setting for it (like my own) then it's left at 120Hz AFAIK regardless of the crossover setting.
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
KelvinS1965 said:
Why do you say this? The .1 LPF setting is separate from the speaker crossover setting. On amps that don't have a setting for it (like my own) then it's left at 120Hz AFAIK regardless of the crossover setting.

From the quote above from svsound guy.
This was my only gripe with some backing that setting to large was a set back seeing as how the 773 and the mission should be more than capable to take the strain they were designed for as a rarely need to get to -20db on it without the the room caving in.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Sorry, but I think you've misread something because I'm saying the same thing as the SVS guy: The LPF setting for the sub is separate from the speaker crossover and should be set to 120Hz:

So in order to capture everything which could theoretically be present in the LFE channel, this AVR menu option (commonly referred to as 'LPF for LFE') should always be set to 120 Hz. This is usually the default setting on the AVR.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations
SVS
Sound Experts | High Performance Audio Products at Manufacturer Direct Prices - SVS
[email protected]
 

PJLOVER

Active Member
I thought what it was saying is if you set any small speaker lower than 120hz it will inhibit the the .1 channel for the sub.
Did I read it wrong ?
Meaning if you put small speakers at 120 all freq under 120hz will play through sub plus anything lower than 120 on the .1 channel ???
Any lower and you disable frequencies on the .1 channel???
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but that was my interpretation .
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
There are two settings (although some amps don't have the second setting so is fixed at 120Hz):

1. The speaker crossover which redirects the signal below the set point frequency so that the subwoofer produces the lower notes. This can usually be set between 40Hz and 200Hz. Typically a starting point for this setting is 80Hz, but if you have very small speakers you might try a higher setting. If you set this to 120Hz then everything below 120Hz from your speakers will go to the subwoofer. It does not inhibit the subwoofer output for the .1 channel, this is set by the second control below.

2. The LPF for the subwoofer which sets the maximum frequency sent to the subwoofer from the .1 (LFE) track. Typically this is set to 120Hz. There isn't much point reducing this below 120Hz as you will just cut off the top end of the LFE track, so will lose those signals.

Hope that helps. :thumbsup:
 
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