1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

50PV500 v 506XDE: The Final Battle

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Ruby, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    Decision time has come as to which plasma to go for. After having spent a couple of weeks reading through the threads on this forum, I have narrowed my choice to the Pioneer 506XDE or Panasonic 50PV500 as they seem to be regarded as the best 50" models (excluding panel models). The points below are key factors in my decision. Please have a look and make sure my conclusions are correct.

    1) I can get the Pioneer (including full length side speakers and pedestal stand) for about £3500. I can get the Panasonic pedestal model (which as I understand it has an intergrated speaker system) for about the same price. The Panasonic also comes with a free DMRES10 DVD recorder.

    2) The Panasonic produces the best black levels (during dark scenes in dark viewing conditions) out of any plasma on the market. The Pioneer produces black levels that are better than the Pioneer 5th generation, but they still aren't quite as good as the Panasonic.

    3) The 50PV500 is Panasonic's latest plasma TV model (ie. 8th generation), while the 506XDE is Pioneer's latest plasma TV model (ie. 6th generation). Both models were released in the past couple of months.

    4) In the looks department, the Pioneer wins.

    5) The Pioneer has 2 HDMI connections while the Panasonic only has 1. However, am I right in assuming that you could get an adapter that would allow 2 HDMI devices to be connected to a single HDMI connection?

    6) The Panasonic may suffer from very slight colour banding while the Pioneer does not.

    7) The Panasonic has a higher resolution, although I'm not sure if that has any advantages.

    8) Am I right in assuming that all this business about a TV accepting a native rate won't apply to me as I don't intend to use a PC with the TV?

    9) I have no idea how either model copes with NTSC DVDs. Does either one of them produced juddering during panning shots?

    Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    The most important feature you have missed out is this......

    The Panasonic screen will show 50Hz at 50Hz, however the Pioneer converts everything to match its internal video buffer so you get frame rate conversion on everything you watch.

    Now for most stuff this really is not an issue, however for sport when you see a screen that displays 50hz at 50hz there is a night and day difference, so if you watch sport you have to seriously consider this fact.

    I think the Pioneer is a better screen in every respect apart from this one feature, and that one feature is something I could not live with so I would personally go with the Panasonic. (Well I would go with a PHD8, but you said you need the speaker! ;) )
     
  3. Rahmorak

    Rahmorak
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2004
    Messages:
    450
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Lake District
    Ratings:
    +10
    Yes you could buy a HDMI switcher or wait and buy a new AMP with built-in HDMI switching.

    I would be VERY surprised if the Pio didnt suffer from this as well.

    If you don't plan on using a Scaler at some point then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

    I found the Pio 505 judder was quite bad at times, definitely worse than my Fuji 50". I hear the 506 is the same as the 505 in that regard.

    You really need to take a disc with a panning scene in to demo and see if you notice anything.

    R.
     
  4. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    gizlaroc,
    So would you agree that the Pioneer produces good black levels (even though they might not be quite as good as the Panasonic)?

    Rahmorak,
    Forgive my ignorance, but what is a scaler?
     
  5. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    The Pioneer black levels were awful on the 5th gen screens, only someone who has not had a panny or fuji screen would argue otherwise. The new 6th gen screens do seem to have better blacks but to me it still does not look solid, it looks like part of the image is missing when there is a dark scene.

    I missed your point 9 a minute ago.
    If you do not like the slight judder you get from film to NTSC conversion you really must see the Pioneer before you decide, this is nothing comapred with the judder you get just watching Pal!


    A scaler is a device that lets you go into the screen and does all the deinterlacing and scales the image to match you panels native resolution, there by bypassing the crappy internal deinterlacing and scaling that is built in. It also does a lot more in the way of video switching, colour balance, cleaning the image up etc. etc.
     
  6. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
  7. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2004
    Messages:
    389
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +42
    I have the 505XDE connected to an OPPO dvd player via HDMI. The dvd player is set to NTSC when playing R1 and PAL when playing R2.

    The picture quality is fantastic and I have never experienced any judder when playing NTSC or PAL. I have even tested it with the battle-hardened scenes from the Lord of the Rings Triology and it is pure eye-candy.

    I would expect the same from the 506XDE. Regarding HDMI switchboxes...at current prices you will have to spend an extra £200 for 1 extra input, so the 506XDE will save you money there if you are working to a budget.

    Doc
     
  8. madshi

    madshi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,145
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Hamburg
    Ratings:
    +62
    As far as I know, it uses a 100Hz like mode for 50Hz sources.

    Which internal refresh does the Pioneer have? I thought it would be multi frequency able? E.g. you can switch Advanced Pure Cinema on/off to get either 75Hz or 100Hz. And for 24fps based sources Advanced Pure Cinema should give 72Hz. I thought the Pioneer would show all those refresh rates natively. Do you have real information that this isn't the case, or are you just guessing?

    Thanks...
     
  9. dino2021

    dino2021
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,526
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +106
    I had a 435xde and it was total rubbish with sky faces were just made of several colours all blocky horrid, DVD was great though very nice,but I watch sky all the time so had to go with something that looked ok with it so I took it back, and got a pv500, best thing I ever did. No line fault or any probs with my panel

    The pioneer wins on looks, but dont forget that STUPID media box that has to be connected, If you ever plan on wall mounting it more than say a meter away from the box you have to buy longer leads and they run at £250, What are pioneer thinking with this media box, wonder how many other plasmas have media boxes with custom leads that cost the earth.
     
  10. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    When I spoke with Pioneer the guy there, who seemed very clued up, said that everything on the TV range is converted back to the screens internal buffer, which is 56.25hz.

    This is why I was asking before what all the 75hz and 100hz options are about, as why have them if everything is converted to the native refresh.
    When you see a Pioneer XDE next to an MXE, it is obvious that there is some frame rate conversion going on too.
    I don't know how the internals of the Pioneer work, but I am trying to find out, the 6th genb range are stunning apart from this one thing, to some people it really won't matter but to others it will drive them mad. The fact The Doctor does not even see judder on film to NTSC transfers just proves that some won't notice frame rate conversion.

    I also found this, it is the timing for the 505 to get 1:1 mapping over vga.....

    1) Pioneer 505 50" Plasma TV

    VGA

    1280x768@56.25 Hz

    Horizontal scan rate 45.113Khz
    Horizontal total active 1280
    Horizontal front porch 048
    Horizontal sync width 112
    Horizontal back porch 248
    Vertical refresh rate 56.25Hz
    Vertical lines 768
    Vertical front porch 001
    Vertical sync width 003
    Vertical back porch 030

    pixel clock = 76.15 MHz




    Again, it corrosponds to what the Pioneer guy said regarding the 56.25 refresh.
     
  11. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    I'm leaning even more heavily towards the Panasonic now as you guys say it handles NTSC better, has better blacks and is better for sports.

    Out of interest, when was the 50PV500 released? I don't want to end up getting a model that is replaced by something newer and better in a few weeks time. Also, is £3570 about what you'd expect to pay online for the pedestal model?

    Also, is the visible screen size on a 50" plasma model actually 50"? This may seem like a silly question, but I remember that with CRT sets, the actual visible screen size was always an inch or two smaller than the advertised screen size.
     
  12. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    Yeah 50" is 50".

    Have you considered the Pioneer MXE1 panel or the PHD8 panel?

    You obviously need to have a tuner (sky/freeview/ntl) and some sound (or add the speakers) but they give a far better image overall and don't have all the problems you get from the TV's.
    The blacks are still not very good on the MXE1 but it is a really, really nice smooth image.
    The PHD screens are really good, no frame rate conversion, deep blacks and a really sharp image.
    The other one to consider is the Fuji, but it is around £4k at the cheapest, not sure on the rpice of their new screen that has the media box and speakers, and again it may have the same problems once the box is added that the pioneer does?
     
  13. madshi

    madshi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,145
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Hamburg
    Ratings:
    +62
    That would be *TERRIBLE*.

    And what did the Pioneer guy answer when you asked about those 75Hz and 100Hz options?

    Hmmmm... Why do you see that between those two models? Does the MXE not do FRC while the XDE does? MXE is the commercial Pio, right? Shouldn't we expect them to work similar inside?

    Thanks very much! I'd really like to get to the bottom of this, but on the US forums nobody seems to have a clue. They just report that the judder problem is still there in 6G, but nobody knows why that is the case. Some people suggest it might be a bad cadence correction...
     
  14. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    gizlaroc,

    I have Sky+ and an amp. However, the 50PHD8 panel alone seems to cost about £3500 at the very cheapest (unless you know somebody who is selling it cheaper). Then you have to factor in the cost of the terminal boards.

    I don't know if any terminal boards come with this model as standard. How much would I have to expect to pay for a scart (for Sky+), component (for DVD player) and HDMI terminal boards? Also, are they easy to install yourself?
     
  15. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    Madshi I really don't know what is going on with them mate.
    I spoke to the Pioneer guy the week I bought a 435XDE, as it was driving me nuts compared to the PW6 I had replaced, and as it had cos me over £2k more I was not a happy chappy!
    As soon as he said everything was converted to 56.25 that was when it came off the wall and went back in the box.

    The MXE1 is monitor and will accept native refresh, I think it is the media box that is the problem with the TV range. There are guys who have gone straight into an XDE with DVI, ie bypassed the media box, now what refresh they have used I do not know, but if you search for threads you will find out more.

    Think of the media box as a cheap scaler, I would guess the thing is a bit like a cheap TV tuner for a PC, certainly no better, the A/D conversion is pretty poor at best and therefore why the digital straight in bypassing A/D conversion looks alot better. I bet the media box is converting everything that goes in to 56.25 and it is not the screen that is doing it?
    Maybe someone who knows can chip in?
     
  16. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    I would guess that when the 50PHD8 arrives you will see an offer of around £3400 delivered, and that would include a stand/wall bracket, composite/S-video board and an extra board (say scart).
    That means you have vga/component on input 1, S/composite input 2 and Scart input 3.
    You could add an HDMI board when needed for around £130, and yeah it takes under 3 mins to fit, slide plate out and put the board in.

    Then if you start getting the upgrade itch in a few months you could add a scaler! :)
     
  17. Dutch

    Dutch
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,590
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +278
  18. madshi

    madshi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,145
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Hamburg
    Ratings:
    +62
    What refresh rates does the MXE1 support without doing FRC? 50Hz and 60Hz? Or 72Hz, too? Where can we get such information from? :confused:

    Thank you...
     
  19. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    How many terminal boards can the panel take and when is the 50PHD8 likely to be available in the UK?
     
  20. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    www.av-sales.com usually do a forum offer, similar price but with a board and a stand, I would expect the 50" to be the same.

    The PHD8 can take 3 input boards as well as the vga/component input it comes with.
     
  21. Ruby

    Ruby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    942
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +70
    What's your opinion of the PHD7? How long has it been out and can it do HDMI?
     
  22. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    The 50" is very good, but it can't do 50hz over hdmi, you would need a little black box to get round it if HDCP becomes an issue at a later date.
     
  23. oliverlim

    oliverlim
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +7
    The MXE1 supports native resolution at 60hz. 50hz is converted to 100hz which does not introduce any problems. I was using the 434 PIO with my lumagen HDP and could not stand the FRC on it. My parents when they came over also commented that during movements plasma is really bad with any promptin from me. I switch the MXE at the beginning of this year and i can tell you it was like night and day. The Tearing as in the top part seems to be moving before the bottom part which is a FRC artifact was terrible on the 434 as it is smooth as silk on the MXE for both pal 50hz(converted to 100hz) and 60hz for ntsc on the MXE1. I have looked at the 435/505 and still see the same problem. Have not seen the 6G models yet but from initial reports it seems like FRC is still a problem on the consumer models.

    Heres to hoping the new commercial PIO retains the MXE1 FRC features.

    Oliver
     
  24. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,999
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,803
    OK:

    I've sat in front of a fair few XDE's. I do not believe runs everything at 56Hz. Go to Bloomberg and watch the ticker tape. On STANDARD cinema setting you'll see smooth, judder free scrolling text. Stick it to ADVANCED and you'll see judder appear....how can that be if everything is same refresh? It can't is the answer. The Advanced setting changes it to 75Hz I'd bet. At normal I'd guess it's 100Hz

    On NTSC DVD the ADVANCED cinema setting is designed to do 2:3 detection and create 3:3:3:3 72Hz refresh. I've not tried it to see how good it is but I've read US reviews that state it's pretty good. You only want to use that Advanced setting for 60Hz flm source video material though as it makes everything else a mess.

    I've only seen the 6th Gen XDE at show (CEDIA USA) with handpicked HD material. There was an MXE around the corner from it. There was an obvious HUGE difference in contrast with the newer panel. Sooner they update MXE's the better.

    Gordon
     
  25. av2diefor

    av2diefor
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    If its a 50" your after the 506 pioneer is the way to go.

    Out of the box settings and a bit of tweaking it trashes the Panny PHD8.

    Its that good, football is spot on, the Real game last night wasnt perfect(nor was it on a crt, but there was dutch football on C5 and it was amazing.

    I tried it on prem plus adverts and sky sports news and without resorting to scalers and the like imo its unbeatable, no judder no solarisation sweet as a nut.

    I have had a 505 (sold it) a PH50PV500 (for a day) and have a PH37pe30 and a PHD8 yes a PHD8 and the 506 is by FAR the winner.

    One very happy man ,after lots of research and advice i have made the right choice :clap:
     
  26. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    I think I may have to take a trip up to Newcastle and have a proper play with one in situ!

    Fancy a game of golf on Wednesday?! ;)

    Seriously though, I know if you didn't think it was as good you would take a hit and sell it on, interesting.
     
  27. av2diefor

    av2diefor
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Guy its that good mate, both sets out of the crate so to speak, the Panny's not bad far from it, its just that the 506 is f stunning!

    Its like looking out of the window, across the board on all channels, the Dutch football was like Hidef .

    Its puzzling me, i admit to that.

    BTW your more than welcome to demo, golf or whatever :D
     
  28. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,767
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +646
    Maybe I should just get one and have a play, then decide which one to keep? You sure there is no judder?

    God this hobby is expensive! My wife will kill me.
     
  29. Blue Triangles

    Blue Triangles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Ratings:
    +79
    First of all, I'm a new member so hello to everyone! :)

    I'm also interested in the Pioneer 506XDE. I went into Comet today and they only had the 43" on display, it was running a HD demo and was very impressive. The colour seemed particularly outstanding compared to the Hitachi 7200 next to it.

    I was wondering if anybody could tell me what its RGB performance is like? I will be buying a Xbox 360 but was wondering how the current Xbox (through RGB scart) looked on the Pio 50.

    I currently have a 36" Philips pixel plus CRT set and think the picture is superb for games.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  30. Munin

    Munin
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    av2diefor you just made my day :) ! Waiting for a 506XDE and began to wonder if I've made the right choice after reading some posts here. If the 506 is that good then I guess my worries are over.
    Now I can't wait to get it home :clap: .
     

Share This Page

Loading...