50" TV visited John Ĺewis now more confused

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
Visited JL today and made the following observations.
Very impressed with OLED particularly Sony but out of budget. Brightness was better than expected.
Samsung QE49Q80R (top of budget) was great head on but faded significantly even at 30deg off centre.
Sony KD49XH95O5 was much better in this respect but lacked the vibrancy of the Samsung (OK could be set up? )
Alongside was a cheaper Sony model this was showing BBC 1 HD Freeview this was not impressive. I got the Salesperson to put the 9505 on the aerial source, it was worse than the cheaper model. Switched to SD and this was atrocious. I am aware that these sources are being upscaled to 4K but....?
I do not use freeview but a Virgin V6 which of course upscales SD to 2K and even SD looks better on my current 2K TV than Freeview HD looked on this TV! What can I expect from the V6 on broadcast TV with a 4K TV?
Actually appearing as good as the OLEDs was the Samsung QE55Q95R which as discussed in an earlier thread has the viewing angle improvement not available on cheaper or smaller QLED models. This is also out of budget and would be difficult to accommodate sizewise.
Back to the drawing board again!
 

Clearandcolour

Active Member
You talk about samsung R-models.. but you mean T-models..

I think shops have bad signals on their tv's (hope so) And maybe because they are spread over so many tv's. That make the picture too worse..
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
Any 4K TV is going to look worse with SD content over your 1080p set.

Your 1080p TV has to take an SD signal and blow it up by a factor if 4. So for every actual pixel in the SD feed, it's creating 3 more using upscaling.

A 4K TV has to blow it up by a factor of 16. So for every actual pixel in the SD feed, it's creating 15 more using upscaling.

There's a limit to how much you can do with a poor quality feed. Also if your TV is a smaller size that adds to making it look worse on a larger screen.
 

Rocketrazor

Active Member
When I purchased my tv (Panasonic 50GT50) I had a look at a number of tv's, the Panasonic was the worst looking one in the shop by a mile, but I knew what the reviews said and I'd already really made my decision before I left the house. When I bought my tv for the bedroom (cheap lg43" £300) I never even went and looked at it, just ordered. I'm over the money with both (though issues with the Panasonic and customer service are a different story) but initial thoughts are there both great for what I need. In reality you can get to bogged down with viewing and reviews, no tv is perfect. My advice would be find your size you want, then your budget, read some reviews and then just order. If you don't like return to John Lewis within 30 days. The reviews will pick up what is good and bad like the viewing angle but it will also give an even playing field. The GT50 was the best tv in the shop according to the reviews, looking at the setup though I would never you guessed it!
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
Any 4K TV is going to look worse with SD content over your 1080p set.

Your 1080p TV has to take an SD signal and blow it up by a factor if 4. So for every actual pixel in the SD feed, it's creating 3 more using upscaling.

No it does not the V6 upscales SD to 1080i fed to TV. So 4K TV would only have to upscale 4X. I can't believe the pigs ear upscaling I saw today since over 10 years ago upscaling of 576i was excellent particularly by the Pioneer upscaler incorporated in several Sony badged products even previous. I would have expected this sort of processing would have moved on by leaps and bounds since? But apparently not.


,
You talk about samsung R-models.. but you mean T-models..

I think shops have bad signals on their tv's (hope so) And maybe because they are spread over so many tv's. That make the picture too worse..
Mea culpa yes T

However these were aerial signals DVB T/T2 so if they work they are the same to every TV!
 
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Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
No it does not the V6 upscales SD to 1080i fed to TV. So 4K TV would only have to upscale 4X.

But it's still being upscaled by a factor of 4, Twice. So it's getting blown up to 16x it's original size.

A 1080p screen has 4x as many pixels as an SD one. A 4K screen has 4x as many pixels as a 1080p one, hence 4K is 16 x as many pixels as an SD one.

Decently mastered DVD's can look OK on a 4K TV but any of the lower quality SD channels are pretty much unwatchable, and the bigger the TV and the closer you sit to it, the more that applies.
 
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Dodgexander

Moderator
The Samsung Q80T does not have their wide viewing angle filter, you need the Q85T or up for that.

Freeview (even HD) does not look as good on a 4k TV. Watching TV like a 4k TV will bring out the worse in poorer quality sources.
No it does not the V6 upscales SD to 1080i fed to TV. So 4K TV would only have to upscale 4X. I can't believe the pigs ear upscaling I saw today since over 10 years ago upscaling of 576i was excellent particularly by the Pioneer upscaler incorporated in several Sony badged products even previous. I would have expected this sort of processing would have moved on by leaps and bounds since? But apparently not.
No, it doesn't work that way. If you first output 1080i to a 4k TV you already upscaling 4x before it reaches the TV. Then the TV has to do the rest. The outcome would be arguably worse than just setting your V6 box to upscale the entire chain, or outputting 576i and letting the TV handle all the upscaling.

If you have a V6 box you'll presumably set its output with a 4k TV to 4k and thus any upscaling done by the TV is redundant, no good comparing different TVs upscaling if you aren't even going to use it. What matters is the stage you do the upscaling. You could waste thousands on a high end TV with the best upscaling only to not use it with your V6 box set to output 4k.

But that aside, I really wouldn't judge TVs at all in the shop. Too many things to throw you off compared to at home. The fact you thought the Q95T looked similar to an OLED really shows that you just can't compare in a shop. One of the golden rules of shopping for a TV is to never compare in the shop.

Not sure what exact buying advice you are looking for, but a few things I'd advise:
  • Judge based on user feedback and professional reviews, not what you see in the shop.
  • Don't buy a 2020 model now, they have just been released and are too expensive.
  • If you buy now, try to get hold of a 2019 model.
  • If you need both wide viewing angles, a degree of future proofing and the TV has to be sub 55" then you have no choice other than to go for the new 2020 48" OLEDs when they come down in price. The choice otherwise is poor future proofing and good viewing angles, or poor viewing angles and decent future proofing. Not both. This is because there's a distinct lack of higher end TVs released at smaller sizes and nowadays (believe it or not) 50" is considered small by manufacturers.
  • If you find only 2020 options are available, buy at Black Friday or later. Don't pay current prices for 2020 models.
Each year I make a guide with all the best buys, here's the latest one:

You'll notice I made that guide just before Black Friday last year. If you can't find a suitable TV in the guide, I'll have my new guide out at a similar time this year (when prices come down).
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
But it's still being upscaled by a factor of 4, Twice. So it's getting blown up to 16x it's original size.

A 1080p screen has 4x as many pixels as an SD one. A 4K screen has 4x as many pixels as a 1080p one, hence 4K is 16 x as many pixels as an SD one.
However as the V6 does an excellent job of upscaling SD to 1080p my question is what can I Expect when this source is fed to a 4K TV? If its worse than I get on my 12 year old 2K TV why am I buying a new TV? Whilst I have access to 4K sources I cannot see myself utilising them very often .
I am just looking for the best TV with modern styling and bigger screen but not much bigger in overall size than the current TV which has a 55mm black bezel round the screen.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
If its worse than I get on my 12 year old 2K TV why am I buying a new TV?

That's one of the many things you have to consider when buying a 4k TV. If you mainly watch SD, I wouldn't change my TV until I had to as ultimately you're going to be disappointed.

I don't watch anything SD nowadays except the odd DVD that's never had an upgrade.
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
Sorry I still don't think you guys get my query!
You seem to think that the upscaling by device/manufacturer is identical?
10-12 years ago this was not the case!
Then the upscaler SD to 1080 by far and away the best was the Pioneer included in their own products and also the Sony badged versions of their HDD DVD Recorder players. The current Virgin V+ box was also highly rated in this respect.
The difference between these upscalers and others was amazing. Given this I expected that these days this technology would have developed in the last 10 years out of all recognition such that upscaling 576 to 2160 would at least been as good as 576 to 1080 was then!
So why buy a new TV that displays a worse picture quality on normal sources?
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
So why buy a new TV that displays a worse picture quality on normal sources?


What do you want. A magical different answer?

Upscaling anything 16x it's original source isn't going to look good. We understand your question fine. Dodgexander is the TV forum mod for a reason, he really knows about TV's.
Upscaling 1080p to 4K is excellent which is the same factor as SD to HD.


Ultimately it's your decision. You asked for advice, you don't like it. Sorry.
 
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Clearandcolour

Active Member
Sorry I still don't think you guys get my query!
You seem to think that the upscaling by device/manufacturer is identical?
10-12 years ago this was not the case!
Then the upscaler SD to 1080 by far and away the best was the Pioneer included in their own products and also the Sony badged versions of their HDD DVD Recorder players. The current Virgin V+ box was also highly rated in this respect.
The difference between these upscalers and others was amazing. Given this I expected that these days this technology would have developed in the last 10 years out of all recognition such that upscaling 576 to 2160 would at least been as good as 576 to 1080 was then!
So why buy a new TV that displays a worse picture quality on normal sources?
I think it must be something else.. I think there's something wrong with the signal. And if you mean sd.. That's not going to look good on a bigger screen..
But I had/have the same experience like you in the shop. But in the shops here they have cable tv.. on it. And it's 1080i what they show.. But then I see all kind of fluffienes... in the picture. Swirms of pixels.. Moving around edges. And then I think.. MY old CRT-tv has nothing with the same channels..
But then, I think it must be the signal that is coming from only one decoder.. spread over 40, 50 tv's or more..
And in the shop I also walk close to the tv's.. But I really questioned myself.. what all these swirling pixelating is at those tv's.. Such an unrest.. ????
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
You seem to think that the upscaling by device/manufacturer is identical?
10-12 years ago this was not the case!
Not really. But with SD its the case really of polishing a turd. There's only so much you can do when there's only so many pixels to work with. Its a lost cause, and one that can only really be aided by either buying a HD model, and a smaller TV.

You are less likely to notice imperfections in poorer quality material if you get a smaller TV, or view far enough from a large one.

The relationship between size and distance of the TV, together with the native resolution is a much bigger factor compared to the upscaling differences between one model and another. Yes there's certain models that get acclaimed for upscaling compared to others (Sony, Samsung, Panasonic come to mind) but that doesn't mean others aren't far behind...and it doesn't mean they will work miracles and overcome detail that just isn't there in the first place.

In the future, perhaps processors will start to become more powerful and overcome the deficit involved in having to scale to a higher resolution. Right now they can't keep up with the extra ooomph that is required to upscale SD well to UHD compared to HD.
 

Clearandcolour

Active Member
Not really. But with SD its the case really of polishing a turd. There's only so much you can do when there's only so many pixels to work with. Its a lost cause, and one that can only really be aided by either buying a HD model, and a smaller TV.

You are less likely to notice imperfections in poorer quality material if you get a smaller TV, or view far enough from a large one.

The relationship between size and distance of the TV, together with the native resolution is a much bigger factor compared to the upscaling differences between one model and another. Yes there's certain models that get acclaimed for upscaling compared to others (Sony, Samsung, Panasonic come to mind) but that doesn't mean others aren't far behind...and it doesn't mean they will work miracles and overcome detail that just isn't there in the first place.

In the future, perhaps processors will start to become more powerful and overcome the deficit involved in having to scale to a higher resolution. Right now they can't keep up with the extra ooomph that is required to upscale SD well to UHD compared to HD.
#Dodgexander,.. what is the swirling, pixelating,.. or how can I make it clear.. All this unrest like flames at all the edges.. when you come a little closer,. ?? Why is on the tv's in the shop.. all this unrest in the image. That HD is is not detailed.. That's logical.. But why thes moving unrest.. ?
At my dell wqhd monitor I watch lower input like 720 or sometimes youtube is in 420 or what is it.. But hte pixles don't swirl at all the lines/edges.. It can be blurry.. But a pixel is pixel.. and they don't swirl around.
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
What do you want. A magical different answer?

Upscaling anything 16x it's original source isn't going to look good. We understand your question fine. Dodgexander is the TV forum mod for a reason, he really knows about TV's.
Upscaling 1080p to 4K is excellent which is the same factor as SD to HD.


Ultimately it's your decision. You asked for advice, you don't like it. Sorry.
Firstly I have been on this forum possibly longer than Dodgexander or yourself.
I do recognise that Dodge is the best reference for current TV'S .
What I find inexplicable is that Joe Public is being sold TV'S that actually give a worse picture on his common sources than his current TV. Whilst many may have access to 4K sources via Netflix Sky Sports etc the majority of their viewing will be of possibly HD these days but some SD.
Having come back into the TV market I am amazed that the upscaling problem has not been vastly improved as electronics has moved on several generations in the last 10 years with faster processors , huge storage with faster access etc.
As I said before I was not impressed even with the upscaled BBC 1 HD it was not as good as e.g. SD upscaled to HD on my currrent set up. Also the cheaper Sony was definitely making a better job of it than the more expensive one. The TV 's were both connected to RF feed tuned to Freeview DVBT2 and thus the signal was not a factor.I accept the advice but would like an explanation, is there another forum where this might be discussed?
 

Clearandcolour

Active Member
Firstly I have been on this forum possibly longer than Dodgexander or yourself.
I do recognise that Dodge is the best reference for current TV'S .
What I find inexplicable is that Joe Public is being sold TV'S that actually give a worse picture on his common sources than his current TV. Whilst many may have access to 4K sources via Netflix Sky Sports etc the majority of their viewing will be of possibly HD these days but some SD.
Having come back into the TV market I am amazed that the upscaling problem has not been vastly improved as electronics has moved on several generations in the last 10 years with faster processors , huge storage with faster access etc.
As I said before I was not impressed even with the upscaled BBC 1 HD it was not as good as e.g. SD upscaled to HD on my currrent set up. Also the cheaper Sony was definitely making a better job of it than the more expensive one. The TV 's were both connected to RF feed tuned to Freeview DVBT2 and thus the signal was not a factor.I accept the advice but would like an explanation, is there another forum where this might be discussed?
I think the final answer without discussion or uncertainty.. Is make a decission which tv, and order it with 14 day return-policy without reason.. And put it next to your own tv in the same setting and input.
 

LCDseeker

Distinguished Member
Firstly I have been on this forum possibly longer than Dodgexander or yourself.
I do recognise that Dodge is the best reference for current TV'S .
What I find inexplicable is that Joe Public is being sold TV'S that actually give a worse picture on his common sources than his current TV. Whilst many may have access to 4K sources via Netflix Sky Sports etc the majority of their viewing will be of possibly HD these days but some SD.
Having come back into the TV market I am amazed that the upscaling problem has not been vastly improved as electronics has moved on several generations in the last 10 years with faster processors , huge storage with faster access etc.
As I said before I was not impressed even with the upscaled BBC 1 HD it was not as good as e.g. SD upscaled to HD on my currrent set up. Also the cheaper Sony was definitely making a better job of it than the more expensive one. The TV 's were both connected to RF feed tuned to Freeview DVBT2 and thus the signal was not a factor.I accept the advice but would like an explanation, is there another forum where this might be discussed?

The upscaling on sets these days is generally excellent. What modern sets are you seeing that don't perform as well as yours?
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
when you come a little closer,. ?? Why is on the tv's in the shop.. all this unrest in the image. That HD is is not detailed.. That's logical.. But why thes moving unrest.. ?
Probably edge enhancement or over-sharpening associated with poor out of the box settings. These can be defeated mostly by using the right picture mode, or less commonly manually tweaking the the settings yourself.
What I find inexplicable is that Joe Public is being sold TV'S that actually give a worse picture on his common sources than his current TV.
I do too, its a farce, but the buzzwords now are UHD and HDR so if you don't jump on that bandwagon you miss out. Once you make the move away from broadcast TV and toward them, there's no going back. For someone still watching broadcast TV you're best just sticking with an older, smaller model, or buying a new HD model.

For those with mixed usage, who want to try to get the best of both worlds, go for a smaller UHD model like the Sony 49XG9005.
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
The upscaling on sets these days is generally excellent. What modern sets are you seeing that don't perform as well as yours?
Please read the thread in full from which you will see that the TV I saw was a Sony KD49XH95O5.
I note that Dodgexander endorses my observations in his above post.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
There is a limit to what you can do with upscaling.

It's like an episode of CSI where they take a grainy, awful looking CCTV pic and then zoom in on it, work a bit of CSI magic and all of a sudden it's as clear as crystal and they can get a fingerprint impression off it.

That's kind of what you're wanting, but, like CSI, it's unrealistic. As Dodge says, you can't polish a turd.

Please read the thread in full from which you will see that the TV I saw was a Sony KD49XH95O5.
I note that Dodgexander endorses my observations in his above post.

For someone who "wants help" you're a bit tetchy. That's the 2nd person you've snapped at in this thread. I'll leave you to it.
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
I just expected it to be better than 10 years ago. Fully appreciate that upscaling 576i to 4K is a big ask. But did not expect to see the artefacts that were characteristic of poor upscaling 10 years ago when viewing HD on a 2020 4K Sony.
No snapping intended - apologies!
 

mikej

Well-known Member
I upgraded from a 46" 1080p plasma to a 55" 4K OLED last year - it was an upgrade I was forced into due to the plasma failing.

While demo-ing 55" sets, I quickly discovered that gaining a larger screen, 4K and HDR would be at the expense of certain SD content (at my viewing distance of 8-9ft at least) but I decided it was a trade-off I was willing to make.

To summarise... 4K content looks amazing and 1080p looks pretty close. Good quality SD sources such as the higher bitrate Freeview SD channels (eg. BBC1) or good quality DVDs can look OK/passable when there is no other option, but the poorer bitrate Freeview SD channels are pretty-much unwatchable. I'm not sure how SD on Virgin/cable compares - are they all available at decent bitrates, or are some better than others like on Freeview ?

I guess it all boils down to what your current viewing habits are now and where you think they'll go in the near future. I had already started to move over to the likes of Netflix and Prime for a lot of my viewing and there is an ever-increasing amount of HD/4K content on there to keep me going for a quite a while. Add to that an interest in the new PS5 (which should bring 4K gaming) and the fact I was watching less and less SD Freeview anyway made upgrading to 4K a viable option for me, but I agree with the advice given above - if you watch a lot of SD content then going from 1080p to 4K might not be a wise move.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
You have to taste the sour to taste the sweet. The benefits of moving to a new TV (especially one that has ample HDR hardware) highly outweigh the negatives. You just have to use the correct material to make the most of it, so avoiding as much SD as possible and moving towards sources of higher quality. HD is okay, but UHD and HDR is where its at.

Good ways to switch your viewing habits away from it would be:
  1. Switch the HD channels on your tuner box to 1,2,3, etc if they are by default on 101, 102 etc.
  2. Record TV on these channels instead of relying on catch up TV. iPlayer has the best quality catchup, but is still worse quality than the live channel broadcasts.
  3. Transfer time spent viewing the non-HD TV channels towards streaming services and content offered in high quality. Amazon, Netflix, Apple, Disney etc. Even HD on these streaming services will look better than broadcast TV.
  4. Take advantage of the select trials available on the BBC iPlayer where they showcase HDR such as the last European football championships and Wimbledon.
  5. Buy an UHD Blu-Ray player and rent or buy UHD Blu-Rays - There's a good section the forum here where people look out for deals on UHD Blu-Rays, and you can even buy yourself and sell on later in the classifieds section
  6. If you are gamer, think about a games console like the upcoming PS5 or Xbox series that will include games in HDR.
Alternatively you could just wait for broadcast TV to catch up. I think what will end up happening though is this industry will be left behind, with any UHD and HDR content being online only. I'd take a guess the BBC will probably start broadcasting select shows in 4k on the iPlayer such as Eastenders in the future. You can expect other networks to be very far away in this respect though, there catch up TV services aren't even HD yet.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Why be a philistine and watch SD when there is so much HD and UHD available these days.:thumbsup:

I can't bear to watch SD and have not watched any apart from local BBC news for years now. Like Dodge says there's plenty of choice for watching higher than SD content for low cost.

We went HD in 2006 IIRC it's now 2020 that's 14 years, how much longer will it be before everyone has a 1080p or 4k tv.
 

Boostrail

Distinguished Member
Why be a philistine and watch SD when there is so much HD and UHD available these days.:thumbsup:

I can't bear to watch SD and have not watched any apart from local BBC news for years now. Like Dodge says there's plenty of choice for watching higher than SD content for low cost.

We went HD in 2006 IIRC it's now 2020 that's 14 years, how much longer will it be before everyone has a 1080p or 4k tv.
I note you use a JVC projector and whilst 1080p projectors may have been available in 2006 as I remember the first true 1080p TV 's were not available until late 2007. Previous to this so caĺled HD ready TV'S were available some of which could accept a 1080ì signal but effectively downscaled it to 720p.
Also I do not recall much HD being available at that time. BBC HD started as a trial in May 2006 followed in 2007 by a few channels on Sky showing mainly broadcaster upscaled SD. Some demo material was also available on line.
Today I would think that virtually everybody has at least a 1080x1920 TV. People are not Philstines when a lot of what they want to watch is still only available in SD.
 
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