50 inch Panasonic or Pioneer? - With Panasonic at Half the Price?

[stuart2]

It is well recognised on this forum that the two best plasma makers are Panasonic and Pioneer. Now what is happening with Pioneer? You can buy more than two Panasonics, with the same spec as the Pioneer, for the price of one Pioneer. The following comparison from John Lewis shows:

*www.johnlewis.com/Shopping/Comparison.aspx?ARA=Technology&CAT=Televisions&SCT=Televisions&PRT=Plasma+TV&PRTID=1377&SAT=Screen+sizes&SBV=Over+43%22&Page=1&Order=0&ComparisonSkus=230422753|230445787|230429551

The comparison includes a full 1080p Panasonic which is still £1,100 less than the Pioneer at the standard resolution!

I know Pioneer decided not to come down in price as much as they had been doing but surely they are suffering from competition? Surely also their costs must have reduced such that their prices can come down? If Panasonic can make a profit surely Pioneer can as well at a lower price?

* Sorry the link doesn't seem to work but you can check with the John Lewis website

 

[Gussie]

... but surely they are suffering from competition? Surely also their costs must have reduced such that their prices can come down? If Panasonic can make a profit surely Pioneer can as well at a lower price? ...

This has been discussed several times here - in essence - Pioneer know ...

UK and Europe = consumer mugs for the taking

I think you'll find in the US, Pioneer can't get away with it - in fact they've just had to reduce prices to compete.

I know this is a red rag to the Pioneer fan boys and closet retailers that post on this forum - but it just has to be said AGAIN!

Gussie

 

[stuart2]

Thanks for the reply Gussie. As you can see from my signature I have a Pioneer. However I will be getting a Panasonic for my 50 inch now that prices have fallen. I can not understand the 'fanboy' mentality where they support a particular brand regardless. I will look for value for money and I suspect there are many others like me.

Having seen the Pioneer and Panasonic side by side I do think the Pioneer to be marginally better - or maybe the one I saw was set up better than the Panasonic next to it. Either way the Panasonic still looked good in isolation and I am not prepared to pay more than double for a Pioneer. Again I suspect there are many others like me.

Hopefully Pioneer will see the light when their sales, and therefore profits, fall.

 

[choddo2006]

with the same spec as the Pioneer

Ah but is it?

But I have to assume Pioneer are losing a massive chunk of market share at the moment.

 

[SD Viewer]

Agree with Stuart2 and Gussie. I am in the market for a 50" and saw the Pioneer next to the Samsung side by side in John Lewis the other day. The Pioneer image had greater depth, deeper blacks and seemed more three dimensional. However the Samsung still had a decent SD picture, was more stylish (the added speaker clipped to the base of the Pioneer was the culprit here) and was £1099 compared to £2899 for the Pioneer. As I don't have money to burn I am forced to ignore the Pioneer (which I would have been prepared to pay some kind of premium for) and instead work out where I can see the Samsung Q97 and Panasonic 50PX70 (or whatever is about to replace it) side by side.

 

[Gussie]

... I am forced to ignore the Pioneer (which I would have been prepared to pay some kind of premium for) ...

Exactly - we all agree the Pioneer is better - but is it worth the extra £1000 or so?

Only the few I think! And they've gone out and splashed their CC's and there's probably not many left, willing to do the same!

The rest of us would be prepared to pay some premium - but at the moment Pioneer is taking the ****!!! but for how long?

I see Pioneer have extended their 5 year warranty offer - perhaps sales were a bit sluggish?

I'm betting we'll see the 508XD inc stand/speakers drop to around the £1700 mark in the next 2 months - I really see Pioneer in the pooh if they don't drop their pricing.

Gussie

 

[styler]

Agree with Stuart2 and Gussie. I am in the market for a 50" and saw the Pioneer next to the Samsung side by side in John Lewis the other day. The Pioneer image had greater depth, deeper blacks and seemed more three dimensional. However the Samsung still had a decent SD picture, was more stylish (the added speaker clipped to the base of the Pioneer was the culprit here) and was £1099 compared to £2899 for the Pioneer. As I don't have money to burn I am forced to ignore the Pioneer (which I would have been prepared to pay some kind of premium for) and instead work out where I can see the Samsung Q97 and Panasonic 50PX70 (or whatever is about to replace it) side by side.

Mate do a price match and you can get the q97 for 896 quid. I'm in the process of doing it now. Priced match with RGB direct.

 

[chris182]

I have just come back from the USA where, believe me, there is still a massive price difference between the two.

I went with my Bro-in-Law and his wife to look at 50" plasma's, and must say the Pioneer looks v. good but when he went back and read his 'Consumer Reports', their version of 'Which', the Panny came out better.

When i say that money is no object with the B I L and he went for the 1080 Panny from Costco, i know because i went to pick it up with him the day we came home (Monday).

So all in all the full HD 1080 Panasonic TH50-PZ-700U which included a pedestal cost $2499 compared to $4499 for the equivalent Pioneer Kuro.

 

[Gussie]

... I have just come back from the USA where, believe me, there is still a massive price difference between the two.

I went with my Bro-in-Law and his wife to look at 50" plasma's, and must say the Pioneer looks v. good but when he went back and read his 'Consumer Reports', their version of 'Which', the Panny came out better.

When i say that money is no object with the B I L and he went for the 1080 Panny from Costco, i know because i went to pick it up with him the day we came home (Monday).

So all in all the full HD 1080 Panasonic TH50-PZ-700U which included a pedestal cost $2499 compared to $4499 for the equivalent Pioneer Kuro.

Emm - we were discussing the price difference between the full HD Panasonic 50PZ70 and the HD ready Pioneer 50" set - please do not confuse the issue - in summary US pricing is ...

PDP-5080HD $2,500.00 HD Ready

TH-50PZ77U $2,799.95 Full HD

So at SRP, in the US, the HD ready PDP-5080HD is $300 cheaper than the full HD TH-50PZ77U

Here the 5080 around £1000 more than the 50PZ70 !

And some on this forum actually defend Pioneers rip off pricing here in Europe.

Gussie

 

[MarkTaylor]

I fully agree that it would be nice if the Pioneers were cheaper and if you can't afford one then clearly there is no option involved.

For me the process went like this.

If I buy a Pioneer it will cause me some pain when I buy it but for the next 4 or 5 years at least I'll enjoy the fantastic image on screen.

If I bought a Panasonic I'd have no pain upfront but every day that I look at the image I'll know it could look better.

I couldn't stand the thought of spending 5 years knowing I wasn't looking at the best that I could afford at the time.

 

[Gussie]

... If I buy a Pioneer it will cause me some pain ...

Yes well - a drop of £700 or so on the 5080/508XD in the next 2 months might well induce a touch of pain for some.

I really cannot see Pioneer sustaining a £700 premium on an HD Ready 50" over a Full HD 50" - It'll be marketing suicide in 2008 !

Gussie

 

[chris182]

Emm - we were discussing the price difference between the full HD Panasonic 50PZ70 and the HD ready Pioneer 50" set - please do not confuse the issue - in summary US pricing is ...

PDP-5080HD $2,500.00 HD Ready

TH-50PZ77U $2,799.95 Full HD

So at SRP, in the US, the HD ready PDP-5080HD is $300 cheaper than the full HD TH-50PZ77U

Here the 5080 around £1000 more than the 50PZ70 !

And some on this forum actually defend Pioneers rip off pricing here in Europe.

Gussie

Erm..... it was actually the OP that was discussing the full HD Panny against the HD ready PIO, it was you that started talking about the price differences between Europe and the USA, and how they wouldn't get away with it in the US, when they clearly do.

All i was saying is that there is still a massive price premium to pay for Pioneer against Panasonic, even in the USA

 

[Gussie]

Erm..... it was actually the OP that was discussing the full HD Panny against the HD ready PIO, it was you that started talking about the price differences between Europe and the USA, and how they wouldn't get away with it in the US, when they clearly do.

All i was saying is that there is still a massive price premium to pay for Pioneer against Panasonic, even in the USA

Sorry my friend - but I was confining my comments to the comparison of - as you correctly put it - "the full HD Panny against the HD ready PIO" - where Pioneer in the US do NOT get away with it.

Your assumption that my comments included consideration of the full HD Pioneer 50" 508LX were clearly incorrect and simply added unnecessary confusion to this thread!

Gussie

 

[stuart2]

Having compared the Pioneer and Panasonic side by side (in Costco, Milton Keynes) I can not say there is a massive difference. The panasonic was still very good.

With the full HD Panasonic costing £1,100 less than the SD Pioneer at John Lewis I can not see how Pioneer can compete. Already Fufitsu are dropping out of the Plasma market. I would hope Panasonic will have some competition in the future.

 

[sibeer]

Sadly it currently feels like the Plasma market is going the way of the rear projection sets and slowly dying off. Hitachi, Phillips, LG and Samsung have a couple of plasmas each but all four are clearly more concerned with LCD sales. Panasonic seem to be the only company truely investing in plasma which to my eyes could soon cause them major issues.

Their screens all have an excellent picture quality, in my opinion clearly superior to any but Pioneer and Fujitsu. In my opinion they also nail pretty much any LCD screens. I have no idea why people pay more for similar sized LCD

The fact that Panasonic Plasmas are priced close to the budget makes, yet have a picture up there with the very best makes it a no brainer to me. If you want to spend over £2000 for a 50" Pioneer when a 50" Panasonic is available for less than half that you must be in a situation where money is no object. Likewise those trying to save £100 from their grand by going for an LG or similar are taking the penny pinching too far in my book. If you can afford £900 then you can afford £1000, just wait another month and enjoy years of superior viewing

 

[Gussie]

... If you want to spend over £2000 for a 50" Pioneer when a 50" Panasonic is available for less than half that you must be in a situation where money is no object. Likewise those trying to save £100 from their grand by going for an LG or similar are taking the penny pinching too far in my book ...

Very well put.

One of two things will certainly happen - either Panasonic will increase the pricing on their 50PZ70 or Pioneer will drop pricing on their 5080/508XD models.

Can't see Panasonic commiting market suicide - so it's up to Pioneer!

Gussie

 

[Dread Prophet]

Hmmmm

No one seems to mention the fact that Panasonic's plasma manufacturing dwarfs Pioneer's.

They make 10x as many screens therefore they are cheaper, they are also happy with making little to no margin on the plasmas they sell to their dealers as they can recoup money from other divisions (Matsush*ta is the largest electronics manufacturer in the world, Pioneer just makes TV's home audio and Car audio No vaccum cleaners etc, heh) or just flood the market to gain volume "who cares if we make little to nothing on each one".

Panasonic must sell 3 plasma's to a dealer to make the same money Pioneer does from 1. Pioneers manufacturing deficit prevents it from lowering the cost to the level of the Panasonics. Pioneers relatively small company size also means it is totally pointless to sell a screen and make £75 profit on it (remember they can only make a limited number of them)

Panny is happy with £75 profit per screen they will just use their huge production output to churn 10x as many of them out thus making money from volume sales not margin sales.

Its a fortunate position to be in but does in the long run reduce consumers choice by effectively pricing the competitors out of the market.

 

[Jakeh1969]

Just wait for those Pioneer prices to tumble when Panasonic release their Kuro rivalling technology regardless of whether it's superior or inferior in performance.......

 

[Dread Prophet]

As I said before,

The more the prices "tumble" the less money they make per screen and as they make 10x less screens than Pana yet still have to manage overheads they lose money and go out of business.

Remember the Pioneer screens cost more to make as they make a lot less than pana do (economies of scale) so they must sell to a dealer at a higher price than it costs to make (all ready they are more expensive than Pana's).

That's not to say they can just make a tenner on each panel though. They must also take into account all of the companys overheads and make enough money to cover these, and cover other product lines that end up losing money, and still have money left over for R&D or shareholder dividends.

At the end of the day Im sure Pioneer would love to sell 50" screens at £999 and take massive volume but little margin (a la Pana's market stratergy) but they just don't have the manufacturing output to do this....

So instead they make the price as cheap as they can (to still make enough profit) probably with a little bit of room to manouver (but not much) and instead attempt to justify price based on exclusivity of ownership and knowledge that your watching the best picture (black level colour etc).

Pana flood the market by utilising their strength.....
massive production volume.

 

[Gussie]

... No one seems to mention the fact that Panasonic's plasma manufacturing dwarfs Pioneer's ... They make 10x as many screens therefore they are cheaper ...

Care to justify your logic with regards to the US market - hate to repeat myself but once again ...

In the US, the HD ready PDP-5080HD is around £150 cheaper than the full HD TH-50PZ77U. Here the 5080 is around £1000 more than the 50PZ70 !

The market volume differences between the US and UK are irrelevant - both Panasonic and Pioneer are global players with the ability to share out production worldwide!

... At the end of the day Im sure Pioneer would love to sell 50" screens at £999 and take massive volume but little margin (a la Pana's market stratergy) but they just don't have the manufacturing output to do this ...

Well - they almost manage that in the US! $2500 RRP for the 5080 - clearly they have the manufacturing output and will to do this, whilst Panasonic are content to charge $2,799.95 RRP for their Full HD TH-50PZ77U.

I'm afraid your logic is deeply deeply flawed!

Gussie

 

[punkymunky]

Just wait for those Pioneer prices to tumble when Panasonic release their Kuro rivalling technology regardless of whether it's superior or inferior in performance.......

This may not happen as you predict... in order to achieve those extra black, black levels an extra layer like Pioneer's 'crystal emmisive layer' must be added to the screen which will add a new process to the production cost which does not fit in with Panasonic's cost cutting strategy at the moment.

The future for Panasonic plasmas is bright, or rather brighter screens to compete with mass market LCDs in showrooms, not small volume 'high' end plasmas.

 

[Dread Prophet]

Ok,

Im not sure I understand thats an odd comparison, couldn't it be that Pana are charging more in the US and making money from Americans but rock bottom price in the UK thus making hardly anything from us.

Lets do a quick search on Amazon for a guideline (they have UK and US sites)

Amazon US list price $2499.99 for a PDP-5080 Amazon US list price for Pana $2799.99

Amazon UK list price £2400.05 for a PDP-5080 Amazon UK list price Pana £1350


How odd?

The Pioneer is a similar price in the UK and US (although its £ price is cheaper, exchanges rates make it a little dearer here.) this re-enforces my argument that global price on Pioneer's is about the same.

But Panasonic is clearly not the case - They are charging rock bottom make no margin prices in the UK and price up lets rip off the yanks prices in the US.

How strange

 

[reckless]

But on current exchange rates the Panny here at £1350 would equate out to (approx) $2700 so they're only being charged about $99 (£50) more which is hardly anything.

I too find it hard to sympathise with Pios position and with those that say they can't compete with Panny cost wise when it's plainly obvious that they can in America.

 

[chris182]

But on current exchange rates the Panny here at £1350 would equate out to (approx) $2700 so they're only being charged about $99 (£50) more which is hardly anything.

I too find it hard to sympathise with Pios position and with those that say they can't compete with Panny cost wise when it's plainly obvious that they can in America.

I would agree with the first part of your statement but don't see how you say they compete in the US.

Just to clarify

Panasonic HD ready $1,900 = £950 (approx)
Panasonic full HD $2,700 = £1,350 ``

Pio HD ready $2,500 = £1,250 (approx)
Pio full HD $4,500 = £2,250 ``

Cant be arsed looking at what they cost over here.

 

[YellowSphere]

Both sides raise interesting arguments, and both are right to a certain extent. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

As I understand it, UK spec screens are actually assembled in North Yorkshire. I would imagine that adds on a significant amount, factory space and wages and industry taxes are a heck of a lot higher here in the UK than the US. That is to say that if Pio are building their US spec plasmas in the US, they don't have to spend as much on the factory space.

Though you can easily come back to that with "well, why build here in the UK if it bumps up the cost so much?" and the answer seems to be that people are still willing to pay it, for the moment at least (maybe they are pushing their markup at the moment, and can ease that strain thanks to the early adopters). It has to be taken into consideration that three years ago you would've been paying something like £3500 for a 43", if memory serves me well, and now that money buys you a full HD 50" with much better picture performance...sure the rest of the market has moved on at a completely different rate, but a lot of people will look at it from that point of view.