5.2.4 advice when renovating

MasterC

Member
Hello guys

I'm needing advice on completing my dream of an 5.2.4 setup. I'm planning to renovate the room within the next couple of months, so I have the opportunity to make some integrated speakers and installation.
The rear surround speakers and the 4 atmos speakers I'm planning to build in into the wall and ceiling. And I have committed to try two subwoofers as well.
I haven't drawn a sideview drawing, but the position of the overhead channels is 45 degrees in front and back of the MLP and in line with the front L/R of course as the Dolby recommendation says.

The room's dimension is:
6000 x 3500 x 2400 (L x W x H)

The front setup, which I will keep and use is:
  • DALI Oberon 5
  • DALI Oberon Vokal

The questions is:
- Is the placement of the speakers correct for getting the most out of the room/sound system? (I have tried to meet the requirements of Dolby's recommendations from there website regarding the angles)

- What subwoofer should I invest in? I'm almost pulling the trigger on two SVS PB2000 Pro's.

- Subwoofer placement. I have drawn the 4 positions that I see is possible, and after reading other replies and threads, people tend to recommend two diagonal placed, front and rear?

- Which speakers for building into the walls an ceiling?
I have looked at DALI's PHANTOM-series, Phantom E-50/E-60 for the ceiling, and PHANTOM H-50/H-60, will these speakers not integrate well with my other speakers?
What height should I install the rear channels? Now they are going to be installed in the wall, they can go as low as required since you won't walk into the like if they were mounted on the wall.

- Backboxes for the speakers I'm thinking about buying the B-Sound secoboxx wall and ceiling models, can anyone recommend them?

The walls will be coved with one layer of plywood, and on top of that I'm going to install some acoustic panels in boxes (WoodUpp: Akupanel | Classic Oak - Black Felt → Woodupp.co.uk) surrounded with a 300-400 mm. border Fermascell gypsum fibre boards all around the acoustic panels. I hope this will give some good acoustics as well as some good aesthetics in the room. The ceiling will be covered with Troldtekt panels.

Feel free to tell me your thoughts, ideas and advice!

Thank you in advance!
 

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John24ssj

Active Member
What receiver will you be using for this setup?
For that size room I would go for two pb-3000 subwoofers.
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'm guessing the Atmos speakers are downward CI in-ceiling speakers and not on wall downward facing. If that's the case, the important thing is where the main listening position (MLP) as this will help you position the Atmos speakers similar to Dolby's 5.1.4 illustration. I would say that right away, the rear speakers look wrong and far to close to the corners even if you are going to toe them out slightly into the room.

I've added an illustration simplified which shows how the speakers for a 5.2.4 should be ordered if possible around the room. Without knowing where the seating plan is, then to me, it looks like the Atmos speakers need moving more to the centre of the room from the side walls and the rear speakers do need moving from the corner as this could create a boom trap

Once you've indicated where the MLP is, I'm sure more help will be given :)
5.1-v1.jpg
 

MasterC

Member
What receiver will you be using for this setup?
For that size room I would go for two pb-3000 subwoofers.
Right now I have the Sony DN1080, but it have to be replaced as well, but I havn't decided yet. I have to go with something that is in stock, or soon in stock here in Denmark, and it properly going to be something like Denen X4700H/X6700H, but that is not finally decided.

Do you really think that I need the 3000-version? The price of one of these is almost as much as two 2000 Pro's. I believe that when going with the Pro, you don't need the miniDSP for managing them since that is build into the subwoofer itself?

I'm guessing the Atmos speakers are downward CI in-ceiling speakers and not on wall downward facing. If that's the case, the important thing is where the main listening position (MLP) as this will help you position the Atmos speakers similar to Dolby's 5.1.4 illustration. I would say that right away, the rear speakers look wrong and far to close to the corners even if you are going to toe them out slightly into the room.

I've added an illustration simplified which shows how the speakers for a 5.2.4 should be ordered if possible around the room. Without knowing where the seating plan is, then to me, it looks like the Atmos speakers need moving more to the centre of the room from the side walls and the rear speakers do need moving from the corner as this could create a boom trap

Once you've indicated where the MLP is, I'm sure more help will be given :)
View attachment 1573869
Thank you for your reply. That is correct that the Atmos speakers is going to be installed in the ceiling. The measurements in my drawing is calculated out of the guidelines of this: 5.1.4 Overhead Speaker Setup

The rear surrounds is planed to be installed into the wall.

I have updated the drawing, so it should give a better view now with the seats inserted. There is only two recliner chairs, and on the wall to the left I have inserted the TV. There is a 122" electrical roll down screen over the tv, which I have not included. But that is what's decide that the front L/R is placed out to the sides where they are to clear from the projector screen.

The opening down in the bottom center of the room is a windows btw., so I can't place the rear surrounds further towards the TV.

I'll post some pictures of the room later on if that will help too?

Thanks!
 

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ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Everything else looks fine with the exception on the rear speakers which I would still move inwards into the centre for the rear wall. Once you have all the toys setup, you could try switching the subwoofers around with the speakers to see what sound better to you

I'm glad to see you are also looking to upgrade the Sony as that would be the right thing to do in that size of room. As for the woofer, if your budget allows, its always best to get the best you can afford as long term, it saves you from having to buy twice

V2.png
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hello guys

I'm needing advice on completing my dream of an 5.2.4 setup. I'm planning to renovate the room within the next couple of months, so I have the opportunity to make some integrated speakers and installation.
The rear surround speakers and the 4 atmos speakers I'm planning to build in into the wall and ceiling. And I have committed to try two subwoofers as well.
I haven't drawn a sideview drawing, but the position of the overhead channels is 45 degrees in front and back of the MLP and in line with the front L/R of course as the Dolby recommendation says.

The room's dimension is:
6000 x 3500 x 2400 (L x W x H)

The front setup, which I will keep and use is:
  • DALI Oberon 5
  • DALI Oberon Vokal

The questions is:
- Is the placement of the speakers correct for getting the most out of the room/sound system? (I have tried to meet the requirements of Dolby's recommendations from there website regarding the angles)

- What subwoofer should I invest in? I'm almost pulling the trigger on two SVS PB2000 Pro's.

- Subwoofer placement. I have drawn the 4 positions that I see is possible, and after reading other replies and threads, people tend to recommend two diagonal placed, front and rear?

- Which speakers for building into the walls an ceiling?
I have looked at DALI's PHANTOM-series, Phantom E-50/E-60 for the ceiling, and PHANTOM H-50/H-60, will these speakers not integrate well with my other speakers?
What height should I install the rear channels? Now they are going to be installed in the wall, they can go as low as required since you won't walk into the like if they were mounted on the wall.

- Backboxes for the speakers I'm thinking about buying the B-Sound secoboxx wall and ceiling models, can anyone recommend them?

The walls will be coved with one layer of plywood, and on top of that I'm going to install some acoustic panels in boxes (WoodUpp: Akupanel | Classic Oak - Black Felt → Woodupp.co.uk) surrounded with a 300-400 mm. border Fermascell gypsum fibre boards all around the acoustic panels. I hope this will give some good acoustics as well as some good aesthetics in the room. The ceiling will be covered with Troldtekt panels.

Feel free to tell me your thoughts, ideas and advice!

Thank you in advance!

REW room sim shows smoothest response when you place subs diagonally opposite front/rear so stick with that!

AU_DS_opposing.gif
 

MasterC

Member
Everything else looks fine with the exception on the rear speakers which I would still move inwards into the centre for the rear wall. Once you have all the toys setup, you could try switching the subwoofers around with the speakers to see what sound better to you

I'm glad to see you are also looking to upgrade the Sony as that would be the right thing to do in that size of room. As for the woofer, if your budget allows, its always best to get the best you can afford as long term, it saves you from having to buy twice

View attachment 1573918
Do you mean that the L/R rear surrounds should be place on the backwall (like where you have put the orange boxes), or just further back, with a greater angle over the 116 degrees?

REW room sim shows smoothest response when you place subs diagonally opposite front/rear so stick with that!

AU_DS_opposing.gif
This would be a good pratical solution, and if that is the best solution sound-vice, it couldn't be any better. The only thing is that the front subwoofer have to be placed on the other side of the front right because it is not possible to move the front right further in towards the TV because of the projector screen when rolled down. But that should the room-calibration/bass management take care off right?

If we take the PB2000 Pro as an example, does it matter if it's standing up or laying down?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have added some pictures of the room if that is any help in the process. The door in the back of the room and the door closest to the TV are going to be removed and the wall closed and the door at the right rear speaker is going to be moved back towards the back wall as shown on the drawing. The computer desk is going to be removed also.
 

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ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Do you mean that the L/R rear surrounds should be place on the backwall (like where you have put the orange boxes), or just further back, with a greater angle over the 116 degrees?
No speakers should be placed into a corner as it upsets the balance of it. So, as long as you move then inwards and don't keep them in the corners, then that should be suffice. I'd say if you are mounting them on the wall, at least 30mm from the side wall, any closer depending upon the speakers size is not idea.

I've just added a pair of Oberon On-Wall speakers as an illustration

IMG_speakers-1.jpg
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Do you mean that the L/R rear surrounds should be place on the backwall (like where you have put the orange boxes), or just further back, with a greater angle over the 116 degrees?


This would be a good pratical solution, and if that is the best solution sound-vice, it couldn't be any better. The only thing is that the front subwoofer have to be placed on the other side of the front right because it is not possible to move the front right further in towards the TV because of the projector screen when rolled down. But that should the room-calibration/bass management take care off right?

If we take the PB2000 Pro as an example, does it matter if it's standing up or laying down?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have added some pictures of the room if that is any help in the process. The door in the back of the room and the door closest to the TV are going to be removed and the wall closed and the door at the right rear speaker is going to be moved back towards the back wall as shown on the drawing. The computer desk is going to be removed also.

You will place them the way which is possible out/in, either front left or front right and then opposite side at the rear wall. You can lay it if required no problem lot of people does that with "tiny" subs. 😁

maxresdefault.jpg


Noz0Z9hl.jpg
 

MasterC

Member
No speakers should be placed into a corner as it upsets the balance of it. So, as long as you move then inwards and don't keep them in the corners, then that should be suffice. I'd say if you are mounting them on the wall, at least 30mm from the side wall, any closer depending upon the speakers size is not idea.

I've just added a pair of Oberon On-Wall speakers as an illustration

View attachment 1574118
My bad, I think we are talking about two different thing. Aren't you speaking about rear speakers as in a 7.x.x setup? I'm only going for 5.2.4, where the "rear" surrounds is more place like side surrounds?
I realize that I didn't mention that the orange boxes on the drawing was what I would consider good placement for the subwoofers, hehe.
Atmos 5.1.2.png


You will place them the way which is possible out/in, either front left or front right and then opposite side at the rear wall. You can lay it if required no problem lot of people does that with "tiny" subs. 😁

maxresdefault.jpg


Noz0Z9hl.jpg
That make good sense, It might be better to lay down the subwoofer in the front - thanks!

I think that the question about subwoofer placement have been answered now.
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
My bad, I think we are talking about two different thing. Aren't you speaking about rear speakers as in a 7.x.x setup? I'm only going for 5.2.4, where the "rear" surrounds is more place like side surrounds?
I realize that I didn't mention that the orange boxes on the drawing was what I would consider good placement for the subwoofers, hehe.
Arh, the orange boxes, I thought they were speakers. So, are you placing them on the walls as I've shown in the image. As for the 5.2.4, I'm also on about that too :)
 

MasterC

Member
Arh, the orange boxes, I thought they were speakers. So, are you placing them on the walls as I've shown in the image. As for the 5.2.4, I'm also on about that too :)
Yes sorry, I should have been more clear on what there were illustration.
Just to understand it correctly, you are saying that the surround speakers in a 5.x.x setup should be on the back wall instead of on the sides a little back of MLP?
 

JustinT350

Active Member
I've got a similar size room. And set up.. Oberon 5s, Vokal, Zensor 1 SURROUNDS and Dali Alteco Atmos speakers.

I've gone for 1 pb2000 Pro just now, and possibly will add another at a later date. The single sub is superb IMO. My only slight complaint is the uneven bass around the room. 2 PB3000s in that space would be outrageous 😂
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Yes sorry, I should have been more clear on what there were illustration.
Just to understand it correctly, you are saying that the surround speakers in a 5.x.x setup should be on the back wall instead of on the sides a little back of MLP?
Yeah, having them on the side wall would be a second option unless you was looking at a 7.x.x system which you not. Hope that helps 🙂
 

ddlooping

Active Member
@MasterC

If you're going for an Auro-3D capable AVR I'd suggest you look at implementing a "One-for-all" speakers configuration.
You can find a PDF describing it in the following video's description...


I'd also suggest you watch more videos about this set-up and the Auro-3D converter, "Auromatic".

P.S : if you have the patience to watch it all, there's some interesting info in the following video too...

 
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fizzyElf

Novice Member
Can't help you with your question because I am new to this, but was wondering what software you used for that floor plan? It looks really neat and I would like to do something similar for my set up.
 

MasterC

Member
Yeah, having them on the side wall would be a second option unless you was looking at a 7.x.x system which you not. Hope that helps 🙂
Isn't this conflicting with the Dolby illustration? Aren't they called surround speakers in a 5.x.x setup, and not back surrounds? I know that they are a "hybrid" for both side and rear surrounds in a 5.x.x from a 7.x.x perspective. But that's just go against my knowledge and most home cinema's that I usually se with 5.x.x are having the surround speakers on the side walls, but I'm certainty not an expert at all. But if my believing's is wrong, they should sit on the back wall if that's the correct ways?

@MasterC

If you're going for an Auro-3D capable AVR I'd suggest you look at implementing a "One-for-all" speakers configuration.
You can find a PDF describing it in the following video's description...


I'd also suggest you watch more videos about this set-up and the Auro-3D converter, "Auromatic".

P.S : if you have the patience to watch it all, there's some interesting info in the following video too...

I don't know the Auro-3D concept expect that it is containing a lot more speakers. Isn't most of the streaming dominated by Atmos? (My setup is used for streaming movies on iTunes, Disney+ and so on, I should maybe have mentioned that).
I'll give the video's a look and see if I can learn a thing or two.

Can't help you with your question because I am new to this, but was wondering what software you used for that floor plan? It looks really neat and I would like to do something similar for my set up.
The drawings that I have made in Microsoft Visio. I think that there is better programs out there, but this is the one that I have access to at my work.
 

MasterC

Member
I've got a similar size room. And set up.. Oberon 5s, Vokal, Zensor 1 SURROUNDS and Dali Alteco Atmos speakers.

I've gone for 1 pb2000 Pro just now, and possibly will add another at a later date. The single sub is superb IMO. My only slight complaint is the uneven bass around the room. 2 PB3000s in that space would be outrageous 😂
I believe that it is better to have head room on the subwoofer-side, maybe it is too much, I don't know. The thing that I know is that SVS is raising its prices within next month, so if I'm going to buy these subwoofers, I would buy two and see before the price rises. But I do believe that when you have tried two subwoofers you would never go back to one.
 

ddlooping

Active Member
I don't know the Auro-3D concept expect that it is containing a lot more speakers.
You need to read more about it then. ;)
You would be using the same number of speakers as you plan to, but the top 4 wouldn't be in-ceiling.
Isn't most of the streaming dominated by Atmos?
I unfortunately do not have first-hand experience but apparently Auromatic (the Auro-3D converter) can sometimes work wonders on poor Atmos tracks...
One example...

 

JustinT350

Active Member
I believe that it is better to have head room on the subwoofer-side, maybe it is too much, I don't know. The thing that I know is that SVS is raising its prices within next month, so if I'm going to buy these subwoofers, I would buy two and see before the price rises. But I do believe that when you have tried two subwoofers you would never go back to one.
Yeah I would agree. Do you know how big a price rise is coming?
 

MasterC

Member
@ShanePJ & @ddlooping:
I'll give the Auro-video's a look, but a quick research for the 9.1 Auro-setup is also rear/back surrounds or whatever you would call them is also at 110 degree out from the center, and not on the back wall. Is this a common thing that it is best to place the rear speakers on the backwall instead of on the sidewalls?
Auro 9.1.png

It looks exactly like Dolby Atmos setup, besides of the height channels which should be placed directly over the front and rear L/R.

Sorry if I'm not understanding it correctly but I can't see why the rear speakers should be placed on the back wall instead of on the sidewalls a little back of the MLP which both Dolby and Auro is saying on there respective setup-plans? This must be a personal preference that it is better that way out of own experience?

Yeah I would agree. Do you know how big a price rise is coming?
On there own page they are saying that there will be an increase on about 20% on the mentioned model. I don't know if that only is going to be an increase in the US, but I think it will hit all retailers as well.

 

ddlooping

Active Member
@ShanePJ & @ddlooping:
Sorry if I'm not understanding it correctly but I can't see why the rear speakers should be placed on the back wall instead of on the sidewalls...
I guess the sound might be more "immersive" if it comes from the back rather than the side?
Also, what matters most is for the height speakers (both the front and rear ones) to be pointing slightly above the MLP.
Worth mentioning as they are not always depicted correctly in a lot of diagrams.

Just for clarification, I'm not trying to convince you to go for one setup vs another, I'm just advising you to take the time to look into all your options, so you can pick the one that would work best for you in your room. :)
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I thought you was going for Atmos and not 3D Auro which does require the speakers to be a little more focused again. If you are able to locate the speakers where they are needed, then that's perfect, but you'll find that not everyone is able to and most AVR's are capable of compensating for these discrepancies even though you have rightly pointed out its not technically correct.. Having said that, I've never heard anyone on these forums complaining where they have located the rear speakers if they are on the rear walls for these duties. In fact I've heard more people comment about the differences when comparing upward firing speakers compared to highs or in-ceiling with in-ceiling being the best and upward firing being the worst plus others have also mentioned about not using di-poles or bi-poles as these spread the sound around the rear of the room in an unwanted fashion upsetting the intended focused experience. So nothing is as easy as it sound which is why everything is more of a guild unless you are one of the lucky ones who can place the speakers where the industry standards says making it easier for your avr, trust me, you will not feel as though things are wrong when the sound is pumping round the room if you are somewhere near :)
 

MasterC

Member
@ddlooping & @ShanePJ:
Sorry it wasn't meant do be a cheeky answer. It's just that now I have the opportunity to place the speakers in the walls the way that I want from 110 degrees and further back and also the back wall.

I have looked a little more on the "one-for-all-setup-guide", and I now understand that using a Auro 9.1 looks like it could be a sweet spot since it fits in between the "requirements" for both the Atmos and Auro-3D guidelines - so thank you for the heads up @ddlooping!

I know when it all is set and you turn up the volume, you don't know if it could have sounded better if you have moved a speaker 100 mm. back or forward, but now when it is in the planning you will of course have it as perfect as possible.

Do you ideally want to angle the surround speakers, even if you install them in the side- or backwall against the MLP? Most speakers spread the sound out like a triangle, so does it matters that much anyways?
 

ddlooping

Active Member
Sorry it wasn't meant do be a cheeky answer.
Nothing wrong with your answer, I didn't think it cheeky at all. :)
Do you ideally want to angle the surround speakers, even if you install them in the side- or backwall against the MLP? Most speakers spread the sound out like a triangle, so does it matters that much anyways?
I guess it depends mainly on what speakers you're talking about (surrounds and/or heights) and their dispersion characteristics.
For speakers with an average dispersion, the more they are directed to your ears, the less of the treble they are able to produce you will lose.
But you also have to take into consideration the EQ (if any) your receiver will apply after calibration, your personal preference, whether angling them towards you will increase/decrease the amount of reflections from adjacent walls (for better or for worse)...
No simple answer, really, hence often the need to experiment (which is usually easier to do with speakers that are not in-ceiling/wall).

P.S: I'm not sure what the "official" recommendation is for surrounds, but for (Auro-3D) heights it is for them to aim slightly above the MLP.
 

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