stevebills
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I have a Sony vpl-hw55es and thinks it's about time to upgrade to a 4K projector and any suggestions welcome
Thx
Steve
Thx
Steve
Excellent summaryHi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.
Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.
Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.
Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open
X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)
X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)
X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)
JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.
And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.
Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.
Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.
Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.
Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open
X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)
X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)
X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)
JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.
And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.
Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating
You are welcome guys and thanks to stuartbrown21 for the helpful correction Its a great time to choose and a difficult time as well.
Your excellent summary above suggests to me that it is surely a year or so too early to be dropping that amount of money on a 4k projector, no?
I mean, like you say, every choice is a compromise (although I realise this is always true), but surely the best thing to do when looking at a 4k projector (or at least when dropping good 4k PJ money) is to await a true 4k projector with full 12 bit and proper HDR?
If it were my money, like for the OP, I'd be holding off that extra year. As it is, I am going low-end (ish) 1080p for now, and see where the market stands in 3 years time. But the OP already has the benefit of a pretty good projector anyway to tide him over until the full fat 4k stuff arrives. Including content to be fair.
Just a quick correction - I think the X5000 does have a dynamic iris, I think what it lacks is a dual iris which limits its ability to achieve the higher contrast of the X7000 & X9000.
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.
Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.
Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.
Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open
X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)
X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)
X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)
JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.
And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.
Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating
For health reasons I don't go to cnemas, but I'm interested in this comparison. Is the image given by current home-cinema projectors really better than their cinemas counterparts?I have a Sony HW40, and it's performance easily outstrips that of what I see in the cinema, with the exception of the depth of colour. (...)
If we were to take all aspects of picture performance, and weigh up the pros and cons of them all together, the general picture I get at home as better than a 35mm projection in a cinema. There are exceptions. If you want to compare a pristine print of a Technicolor film, it wouldn't be so open a shut, and 65/70mm is a different argument again, but for the vast majority of films (pre-4k digital) as reasonable home cinema projector is superior.
I would say there's not much doubt, certainly if you're in a light controlled room.
Whenever I go to the cinema - even a good cinema - I find the quality 'iffy'.
The light levels in the room (safety lights, etc) mean the blacks will never be as deep as even a moderate HC model. Unless you have a very dim projector with an old lamp, your HC model will be brighter, too.
Most cinemas are projecting digitally in 2K, and for the few projecting in 4K, only the front third (or closer) will see any difference in resolution, and I often find the projector isn't perfectly focussed anyway.
The inferior blacks and whites make any higher contrast in the source file close to irrelevant.
This leaves only three areas. Firstly colour space, where cinema still has the edge, though I feel it's not as noticeable a difference as some other areas, especially if there's no a side-by-side comparison. Secondly, compression. A cinema should be showing a film from a file which is nowhere near as compressed as a Blu-ray Disc. However, I'd argue that a well-mastered disc is very close. Thirdly, as many digital cinema projectors are DLP models, their motion handling is superior to LCD-based home cinema technologies.
All of this is theoretical, of course. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and in this regard I'd say I'm rarely blown away by any cinema presentation anymore, whilst I'm often sat with my jaw open at the quality of some presentations at home.
I'd be very interested to hear others' viewpoints, but I'd be surprised if there's anyone who finds 'real' cinema to be substantially better than home.
The one caveat I'd add is for the new Dolby Vision laser presentations, which I've yet to see, and which are, by all accounts, capable of something a bit special.
Steve W
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.
Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.
Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.
Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open
X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)
X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)
X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)
JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.
And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.
Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating
Just happened to want an update on PJs as I'm considering big TV vs small TV and PJ. This small article is simply fantastic. Well done to you for providing a simple to follow and pertinent breakdown of what's happening.
Hi Upgradingagain, Wow, thank you very much. You are most welcome
So you've made me wonder which of the £6k models is best? They all seem to have strengths and weaknesses and sadly you haven't said which one to buy!