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4K upgrade yes or no?

Paul Hayward

Established Member
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.

Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.

Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.

Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open

X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)

X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)

X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)


JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.

And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris (correction: the X5000 has a dynamic iris and a manual iris and in use its one or the other. The X7000 and X9000 have the duel iris capability) or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.

Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating:)
 
Last edited:

simon69

Established Member
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.

Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.

Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.

Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open

X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)

X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)

X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)


JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.

And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.

Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating:)
Excellent summary

Well done
 

Batdog

Prominent Member
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.

Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.

Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.

Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open

X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)

X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)

X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)


JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.

And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.

Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating:)

Just a quick correction - I think the X5000 does have a dynamic iris, I think what it lacks is a dual iris which limits its ability to achieve the higher contrast of the X7000 & X9000.
 

jeremy bender

Established Member
Thanks for this Paul - a really helpful summary

As per my other posts I am really torn between Sony 520es and JVC X7000. Pros and cons and desperate to see the AV Forum expert view on both.

I like the 520 clarity when upscaling current 1080p but the panel degradation point really worries me as I am buying to keep it at least 5 years (as I have with my JVC X3). I love JVC contrast and blacks but lack of native 4k is bothering me...

Cheers again
 

Paul Hayward

Established Member
You are welcome guys and thanks to stuartbrown21 for the helpful correction:) Its a great time to choose and a difficult time as well.
 

xs2man

Established Member
You are welcome guys and thanks to stuartbrown21 for the helpful correction:) Its a great time to choose and a difficult time as well.

Your excellent summary above suggests to me that it is surely a year or so too early to be dropping that amount of money on a 4k projector, no?

I mean, like you say, every choice is a compromise (although I realise this is always true), but surely the best thing to do when looking at a 4k projector (or at least when dropping good 4k PJ money) is to await a true 4k projector with full 12 bit and proper HDR?

If it were my money, like for the OP, I'd be holding off that extra year. As it is, I am going low-end (ish) 1080p for now, and see where the market stands in 3 years time. But the OP already has the benefit of a pretty good projector anyway to tide him over until the full fat 4k stuff arrives. Including content to be fair.
 

Paul Hayward

Established Member
Your excellent summary above suggests to me that it is surely a year or so too early to be dropping that amount of money on a 4k projector, no?

I mean, like you say, every choice is a compromise (although I realise this is always true), but surely the best thing to do when looking at a 4k projector (or at least when dropping good 4k PJ money) is to await a true 4k projector with full 12 bit and proper HDR?

If it were my money, like for the OP, I'd be holding off that extra year. As it is, I am going low-end (ish) 1080p for now, and see where the market stands in 3 years time. But the OP already has the benefit of a pretty good projector anyway to tide him over until the full fat 4k stuff arrives. Including content to be fair.

This is an excellent post in my opinion. What you suggest is very sensible in many ways and probably the most rational course of action to follow. I wish I had the strength and patience to do just that. But there is such a thing as human nature and the burning desire for that glorious christmas present.

The counter argument is basically that each year there will be new more powerful projectors being introduced improving on what has gone before. You could wait forever at that rate for the perfect solution. Next year we will have brighter hybrid laser projectors with HDR, single chip DLP is prepped for a comeback at the 4k level possibly with better contrast and brighter LED's, and there will be more 4k panelled pjs to choose from. Beyond that we can look forward to 4k RGB laser projectors with true unfiltered DCI and BT2020 capability and beyond that 8k etc etc. So when do you take the plunge? Why not go for a Sony, JVC or Epson as a bridging solution over the next 3-5/6 years while other technologies mature?

Wish to heaven I had the answer:confused:
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
I'll post as someone who comes to home cinema through a love of film (as opposed to sport, or as a projector enthusiast or technophile).

I have a Sony HW40, and it's performance easily outstrips that of what I see in the cinema, with the exception of the depth of colour. In respect of the latter, whilst statistically it's not close to DCI, in practice it's not an issue.

If we were to take all aspects of picture performance, and weigh up the pros and cons of them all together, the general picture I get at home as better than a 35mm projection in a cinema. There are exceptions. If you want to compare a pristine print of a Technicolor film, it wouldn't be so open a shut, and 65/70mm is a different argument again, but for the vast majority of films (pre-4k digital) as reasonable home cinema projector is superior.

I'm regularly blown away by the image I get. It's jaw-droppingly good, and just a wonderful way to enjoy and appreciate my film collection. If you could sear the image from a new projector on to my eyeballs it would not be worth the extra money they're asking for 4K projectors at the moment.

Now, if you have money to burn, then go for it.

But those many thousands of pounds would buy you an awful lot of really great Blu-ray Discs that you could be watching tomorrow, and which you'll be able to continue enjoying for many decades to come.

When my HW40 gives up the ghost and I have to buy a new model - something that's at least 5 years away - then I'm sure I'll be able to buy a 4K HDR projector for £2,000, give or take, maybe with a laser light source.

Now, here's a thing. The biggest weakness of my Sony is the motion handling. 4K does not cure this. If I had £5,000 to spend on a new projector, and had the choice between something the same standard as my current Sony, but with DLP motion handling, or a 4K projector with the same motion problems, I'f go for the one with the better motion handling. It's a far, far greater issue than colourspace or resolution.

Steve W
 

Andreas21

Banned
Just a quick correction - I think the X5000 does have a dynamic iris, I think what it lacks is a dual iris which limits its ability to achieve the higher contrast of the X7000 & X9000.

The X7000/9000 also has a new lightengine/wiregrid polarizer to achieve higher on/off contrast. The X5000 does not have this lightengine upgrade.
 
Last edited:

stevebills

Standard Member
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.

Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.

Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.

Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open

X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)

X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)

X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)


JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.

And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.

Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating:)

I am grateful for your input and clear imformation and I have just bought a 4K tv as the Black Friday deals and big price drops on 4K tv's is good news and now I'm thinking that projectors may follow suit and we can get a nice deal in 2016
 

frimjack

Established Member
I have a 4K TV (which I only got because it was a very cheap deal) and other than a few shows in 4K on Netflix there isn't a whole lot of 4K content out there.

The advent of 4K Blu-Ray will change all of that of course but even then the titles will come slowly in the initial few months.

Stick with what you have and in 12 months you'll have a plethora of projector reviews tested with actual 4K HDR content to choose from.
 

stevebills22

Established Member
yes i have been watching breaking bad in 4K and this is the by far the best series i have ever watched for
a few years and its not to be missed at any cost
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
The whole 4K streaming setup makes me mad though.
1080p streaming could be as enjoyable as their 4K if they upped the bitrates.
They don't because that would cost £££ as their bandwidth bills would shoot up, as most people's streams would be at these higher bitrates.
The outfits offering 4K are doing it to score marketing points against each other, knowing that actually not many will be using those streams.
Grrr...
 

silva741

Established Member
I have a Sony HW40, and it's performance easily outstrips that of what I see in the cinema, with the exception of the depth of colour. (...)

If we were to take all aspects of picture performance, and weigh up the pros and cons of them all together, the general picture I get at home as better than a 35mm projection in a cinema. There are exceptions. If you want to compare a pristine print of a Technicolor film, it wouldn't be so open a shut, and 65/70mm is a different argument again, but for the vast majority of films (pre-4k digital) as reasonable home cinema projector is superior.
For health reasons I don't go to cnemas, but I'm interested in this comparison. Is the image given by current home-cinema projectors really better than their cinemas counterparts?

I have a Panasonic PT-AT6000E projector and I think the image is vey good, breathtaking at times, but don't know how it looks compared to a good cinema.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
I would say there's not much doubt, certainly if you're in a light controlled room.

Whenever I go to the cinema - even a good cinema - I find the quality 'iffy'.

The light levels in the room (safety lights, etc) mean the blacks will never be as deep as even a moderate HC model. Unless you have a very dim projector with an old lamp, your HC model will be brighter, too.

Most cinemas are projecting digitally in 2K, and for the few projecting in 4K, only the front third (or closer) will see any difference in resolution, and I often find the projector isn't perfectly focussed anyway.

The inferior blacks and whites make any higher contrast in the source file close to irrelevant.

This leaves only three areas. Firstly colour space, where cinema still has the edge, though I feel it's not as noticeable a difference as some other areas, especially if there's no a side-by-side comparison. Secondly, compression. A cinema should be showing a film from a file which is nowhere near as compressed as a Blu-ray Disc. However, I'd argue that a well-mastered disc is very close. Thirdly, as many digital cinema projectors are DLP models, their motion handling is superior to LCD-based home cinema technologies.

All of this is theoretical, of course. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and in this regard I'd say I'm rarely blown away by any cinema presentation anymore, whilst I'm often sat with my jaw open at the quality of some presentations at home.

I'd be very interested to hear others' viewpoints, but I'd be surprised if there's anyone who finds 'real' cinema to be substantially better than home.

The one caveat I'd add is for the new Dolby Vision laser presentations, which I've yet to see, and which are, by all accounts, capable of something a bit special.

Steve W
 

panman40

Distinguished Member
I would say there's not much doubt, certainly if you're in a light controlled room.

Whenever I go to the cinema - even a good cinema - I find the quality 'iffy'.

The light levels in the room (safety lights, etc) mean the blacks will never be as deep as even a moderate HC model. Unless you have a very dim projector with an old lamp, your HC model will be brighter, too.

Most cinemas are projecting digitally in 2K, and for the few projecting in 4K, only the front third (or closer) will see any difference in resolution, and I often find the projector isn't perfectly focussed anyway.

The inferior blacks and whites make any higher contrast in the source file close to irrelevant.

This leaves only three areas. Firstly colour space, where cinema still has the edge, though I feel it's not as noticeable a difference as some other areas, especially if there's no a side-by-side comparison. Secondly, compression. A cinema should be showing a film from a file which is nowhere near as compressed as a Blu-ray Disc. However, I'd argue that a well-mastered disc is very close. Thirdly, as many digital cinema projectors are DLP models, their motion handling is superior to LCD-based home cinema technologies.

All of this is theoretical, of course. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and in this regard I'd say I'm rarely blown away by any cinema presentation anymore, whilst I'm often sat with my jaw open at the quality of some presentations at home.

I'd be very interested to hear others' viewpoints, but I'd be surprised if there's anyone who finds 'real' cinema to be substantially better than home.

The one caveat I'd add is for the new Dolby Vision laser presentations, which I've yet to see, and which are, by all accounts, capable of something a bit special.

Steve W

Steve,
I have only visited my local cinemas, Odeon, never been to an Imax, be it 2 or 3D we have been left dissapointed with either ghosting or some other noticeable defect during the presentation. The biggest thing that I notice at home on the projector is how uniform and banding / DSE free the image is especially with panning.
I have been contemplating the HW65 as there are a few things to my advantage but I'm not sure it's worth it...
Martin.
 

UpgradingAgain

Established Member
Hi Steve, you and me both. I have an old Sim2 3 chip DLP which is fine actually but the upgrade monster has reared its ugly head. At the moment you cannot quite get a projector that covers all the bases. It does depend of course on how much you are prepared to pay. If we look at the main high end contenders, there is the Epson LS10000 (£5999) which is native 1080p and provides pseudo 4k via a clever pixel shifting process that gets you 90%-95% there. This has been improved by Epson recently. The advantages are long life laser based light source, full 10 bit DCI colour, an excellent dynamic black implementation, good native black level with excellent shadow detail and brightness. The downsides are no High Dynamic Range capability and only 8 bit colour at higher 4k broadcast frame rates of 50z and 60z. I've seen this projector twice and love the picture and features. It switches on and off like a dream with no lamp penalty....because it doesn't have one.

Sony have introduced the VW 520es (£8799) currently in review with AV Phil Hinton and should be up on this site soon. Advantages are full fat 4k panels, good contrast, very bright, brighter than the Epson, with excellent scaling for 1080p sources. Fully HDR compatible and vivid colours. The lamp life is estimated at 6000hrs on low mode which is a bonus. The downsides are again only 8 bit compatibility at the 4k broadcast 50z and 60z level and some have reported a poor dynamic iris implementation. The Sony cannot do 10 bit DCI colour which is a big disadvantage in my view. There have also been some alarming reports of panel degradation after the first 1000hrs on earlier 4k Sony projectors resulting in compromised contrast. Sony are aware of this and claim the problem has been addressed in the new generation of pjs.

Finally there is the new breed of JVC's that have captured the heart of those on AVS in the USA. These are being introduced into Europe as we speak/write and early reports are very promising. There are three models, the X5000 at £3999, X7000 at £5699 and the so called 'Brutal Contrast Monster' the X9000 at £8499. Cine4home found these contrast values on the pre pro models on high lamp mode.

Manual Iris Fully Closed................................Manual Iris Fully Open

X5000 40,000:1 (740 lumens).......................21,000:1 (1630 lumens)

X7000 122,000:1 (450 Lumens).....................27,000:1 (1660 lumens)

X9000 155:000:1 (470 Lumens).....................32,000:1 (1680 lumens)


JVC are well known for outstanding native blacks but have struggled with higher lumens as a result. This new range have increased the lumens performance by up to 50% of the old models. They also have improved e-shift, have better optics and are HDR compatible. In fact these projectors are fully 12 bit enabled with 4:4:4 chroma throughout and capable of pixel shift 4k resolution 10 bit colour at the broadcast 50z and 60z frame rates. In fact the X7000 and X9000 have the full 10 bit colour capability whereas the X5000 does not(I have just heard Steve Withers on the podcast measure the colour space at 83% of DCI which is excellent in fact). Also the two older brothers have new grid wire polariser plates that maintain the exceptional native black level of the previous generation whilst significantly increasing lumens. The X5000 is brighter but suffers with a raised native black level as a result.

And the downsides? On spec, the only downside is no native 4k panels and the X5000 does not have the dynamic iris or 10 bit colour. Otherwise its a bit too early to tell at the moment. Traditionally some of the JVC's have required TLC due to changes in gamma, the so called 'gamma droop' problem. This has resulted in loss of detail in the dark areas and must be corrected and monitored via careful calibration. There is also some reports of reflections from within the projector producing external ghost images on screen but many users seem not to be aware of this. The dynamic Iris has also been criticised on some torture scenes and there is a worry JVC might be driving the lamps too hard on these newer projectors resulting in a faster fall off of lumens. There is no firm evidence of any of this and the only way to know is wait for long term reports from the early adopters or become one yourself.

Anyway, this is my take on the 'high end' field at present. If you are still awake after all that I hope you found it illuminating:)


Just happened to want an update on PJs as I'm considering big TV vs small TV and PJ. This small article is simply fantastic. Well done to you for providing a simple to follow and pertinent breakdown of what's happening.
 

Paul Hayward

Established Member
Just happened to want an update on PJs as I'm considering big TV vs small TV and PJ. This small article is simply fantastic. Well done to you for providing a simple to follow and pertinent breakdown of what's happening.

Hi Upgradingagain, Wow, thank you very much. You are most welcome:)
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
So you've made me wonder which of the £6k models is best? They all seem to have strengths and weaknesses and sadly you haven't said which one to buy!

As you have highlighted, it will be hard for Paul to tell you which one to buy, as there is no right or wrong, due to those strengths and weaknesses. A single feature could be very important to one person, but not to the next, which is why everyone has to make their own choices.

I would say every projector in the £6k bracket (and the X5000 at £4k) are very good, and no one of them is bad enough to be written off, it is just the requirements you are looking to fulfill.
 

UpgradingAgain

Established Member
Well, my viewing on a PJ can go from SKY MOVIES HD and SPORTS, to watching BLURAYS and playing PS4. I get no time really to enjoy PS4 but would like the PJ to allow for gaming. Overall, I would like a PJ for movies. It would be based in a lounge with larger bay windows. I might even afford blinds for the room one day, but for now, I would watch it after dark. Any suggestions?
 

Peake

Standard Member
It's very tricky this year, but as noted above tricky in a positive way since all options are very good! Both are HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2. Both have HDR support. JVCs upper range can do full P3 color space, while the Sony and the cheaper JVC only does like 80-85% in what I've seen so far. So your pretty "future proof" if there every was something like that. All more well-written in the summary above.

Light-wise, in your non light controlled room, a traditional recommendation would have been the Sony, leading the pack with it's light output. But this year JVC has really upped their game and seem to be offering a higher light output, virtually going past the competition!

Contrast-wise, which will be very noticable in blacks in a blu-ray movie, JVC used to own the game completely. In this area, there's reports that Sony has increased the native contrast rate with this round of refreshes, so yet again a narrower field!

I've been a JVC guy because I really like their contrast ratios in my light controlled room, offering deep blacks. However, I have a very large 142" screen, and have seen the limit of 1080p from my seating distance. Because of this I have chosen to go with the Sony VW-520ES this year.

Will I miss the deepest of blacks? Yes, probably. Will Sony's advancements in native CR make this problem smaller? Yes, hopefully. Would I have missed the higher native resolution if I went with a JVC? Yes, probably. Will JVC's latest 4th generation e-shift technology soften the lack of native 4k panels? Yes, certainly.

From what I read in your description, it leans slightly toward a JVC "pattern" of a projector, if film is your main focus. If you would say that you gamed more, and specifically in online Player vs Player shooters, It would maybe lean more towards the Sony since the lag on them is significantly less in it's gaming mode (I think something like 40 ms instead of 130-140 ms). For the odd play time with family or adventure type games the difference is hardly noticable. Unless of course you, like me, have a huge screen, and sitting pretty close to it, where you would have a chance of noticing the 4K improvement. I suggest you have a look at the chart that's pretty widely distributed on the net (available here: Resolution vs. Screen Size vs. Viewing Distance Chart). If you see that the human eye with normal vision cannot resolve any of the 2160p benefits, there is very little reason for you to go for a 4K projector, simply put!

I hope you find your dream projector! Report what you chose when you've done it!!!
 

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