Question 4K over 15 meters - HDMI, Fibre, Ethernet = one confused consumer

Otto Pylot

Member
I feel like I am coming across as pretty negative here, but I have spent so much time dealing with disappointed people who have bought, cheap wifi extenders / powerline adapters / streaming boxes / hdmi switches etc and are desperately disappointed when their £2k macbook / £2k OLED TV / £1k smartphone don't work properly on the shonky [email protected] that they bought for £20 and then wanting it fixing - cheaply. People are happy to buy expensive designer goods that they can 'show off' to their friends and neighbours but then baulk at paying for half decent infrastructure items (that nobody can see) and will buy cheap 'alternatives' which dont work as described and then spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort trying to make it work / justifying it. You only need to look at the number of threads of people squealing at the price of a 15m Hybrid Fibre cable but will spend £60 - £70 on'alternate' products that generally fail pretty quickly.

I don't think you are being negative at all. You're telling it like is. Spot on as far as I'm concerned.
 

Supersonic

Member
You only need to look at the number of threads of people squealing at the price of a 15m Hybrid Fibre cable but will spend £60 - £70 on'alternate' products that generally fail pretty quickly.
I'd buy a Ruipro/hybrid fibre cable but I can't be sure it will work properly with my AVR and the two displays attached. I can absorb a £20 tester cable, but not a £200 one.

2.1 devices and 48Gbps cables 'coming soon' doesn't help either. Don't want to have to replace my pj cable again for a while, if possible.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
What are you expecting to send to the Projector which the RuiPro4K will not handle?

Conduit is the only way to future proof.

Joe
 

Otto Pylot

Member
I agree with Joe. The ONLY way to future proof is with a conduit. HDMI 2.1 and reliable 48Gbps cables are not quite here yet, in spite of what marketing and product descriptions claim. Install what you need now for what you have (HDMI 2.0) and just plan for an upgrade path once HDMI 2.1 devices and cables are in the wild, along with adequate source material. A cable mfr can claim their cable can handle a 48Gbps bandwidth but that's not a guarantee that the cable can transfer data that requires 48Gbps reliably and error free because there aren't any devices yet that are fully HDMI 2.1 feature set capable.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
Lindy are playing games with the wording on the 10m cables you link to - no cable over 8m is certified as 'High Speed' or 'Premium High Speed'. Lindy have added 'Premium' to Standard to create its own category of cable (they do say in the tech specs that it is a Standard cable with Ethernet).

Great you have a working solution at 1080p though as others have said that is no indication of how teh system will work with 4K UHD source signals.

Joe
Just add my 2 cents. I have tried 3 cables over 10m with 4K to my new 4K projector and none of them have worked. The first cable I didn’t expect to, as it was a 1.4b cable that was already there from my previous 1080P setup (but I tried anyway). The next two were both claimed to be ultra 4K premium cables, advertised at 18 Gbps [email protected]; neither worked with my Sky Q 2160P output or my 4K Blu-ray player....though both were fine with 1080P.

I am now trying a fibre-optic HDMI cable as a last resort, after that I‘m not sure of what is the answer!
 

Otto Pylot

Member
Just add my 2 cents. I have tried 3 cables over 10m with 4K to my new 4K projector and none of them have worked. The first cable I didn’t expect to, as it was a 1.4b cable that was already there from my previous 1080P setup (but I tried anyway). The next two were both claimed to be ultra 4K premium cables, advertised at 18 Gbps [email protected]; neither worked with my Sky Q 2160P output or my 4K Blu-ray player....though both were fine with 1080P.

I am now trying a fibre-optic HDMI cable as a last resort, after that I‘m not sure of what is the answer!

There are quite a few reports from projector users who are having difficulty with various HDMI cables over the "magical" 25' distance for 4k HDR. "Ultra 4k Premium" cable is just a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. 1080i/p is not usually a problem with just about any cable. I'm not sure if it's an HDMI input power issue with some projectors because a lot of cables at 10m or longer are active cables. Hopefully the hybrid fiber cable will work (Ruipro4k?) but I've seen issues with that cable and some projectors as well. Maybe a voltage inserter will help.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
There are quite a few reports from projector users who are having difficulty with various HDMI cables over the "magical" 25' distance for 4k HDR. "Ultra 4k Premium" cable is just a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. 1080i/p is not usually a problem with just about any cable. I'm not sure if it's an HDMI input power issue with some projectors because a lot of cables at 10m or longer are active cables. Hopefully the hybrid fiber cable will work (Ruipro4k?) but I've seen issues with that cable and some projectors as well. Maybe a voltage inserter will help.

It is definately a distance thing, i.e. I purchased 2 of the "said" UHD 4K cables from the same manufacturer, one for the Blu-ray to AMP [2m] and the 10m one for the AMP to the Projector. If I dismount my projector and use the 2m cable, everything is fine. The real kicker is that about an hour after your post the manufacturer contacted me by email and advised that their long cable is not 4K able, despite what their claims were. The short one was true 18 Gbps cable.

I didn't buy the Ruipro4k cable simply because I came to the forums as an afterthought, simply as I was trying to find a trusted source of a real cable and to read up on voltage inserters etc. I have a new fibre-optic cable arriving today [that is mentioned as solving someones elses problem earlier in the thead; purely coincidence I have the same one coming however, though I hope for the same outcome].

The most irratating element of my issue was that I ordered my 4K projector and it was on back-order, so I decided to chase in new cables in readiness and redecorate my home cinema. I never imagined for a minute that I would have issues like this. In fact, for a couple of days I was blaming my AV amp and had arranged for a warrany repair; only by chance did I try 1080P again because it also goes to a 1080P TV which wont show with 4K on Sky Q box - bingo, projector and Amp both working fine with "rogue" cable at 1080P

UPDATE: By means of an update, the new cable arrived and works fine [which is a huge relief]. It is the same as referenced earlier in the thread:

 
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Supersonic

Member
What are you expecting to send to the Projector which the RuiPro4K will not handle?

Conduit is the only way to future proof.

Joe
Hi Joe. Nothing. It's the 'it's a hybrid fibre cable issue' issue! I.e. if I have my 1080p plasma and UHD projector connected to my AVR at the same time, the RuiPro won't work due to it being an active cable.

Nothing is ever future-proof! It's just a question of how long before something becomes obsolete.

I don't have trouble accessing the cable, it's the thought of buying a £180 cable now and then replacing it in 6 months time. Doesn't make sense to me when I can wait a bit.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
Hi Joe. Nothing. It's the 'it's a hybrid fibre cable issue' issue! I.e. if I have my 1080p plasma and UHD projector connected to my AVR at the same time, the RuiPro won't work due to it being an active cable.

Nothing is ever future-proof! It's just a question of how long before something becomes obsolete.

I don't have trouble accessing the cable, it's the thought of buying a £180 cable now and then replacing it in 6 months time. Doesn't make sense to me when I can wait a bit.

I am having a similar problem...I think. If I have my TV and Projector operating at the same time @ 4K, then everything is fine. I have an AVRX2300 Denon Amp using the dual HDMI outputs. If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable? [the new fibre-optic cable referenced above]
 

Otto Pylot

Member
I am having a similar problem...I think. If I have my TV and Projector operating at the same time @ 4K, then everything is fine. I have an AVRX2300 Denon Amp using the dual HDMI outputs. If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable? [the new fibre-optic cable referenced above]

The cable is being sold as an "HDMI cable 2.0", which sends up all kinds of red flags due to the way the cable is labeled and marketed. Using dual HDMI outputs has also been reported as having issues, especially if the HDMI output share power or it's HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 or HDMI 1+2, in which case the resolution output may be affected. There may not be an issue is one output is sending audio only but it depends on the mfr.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
The cable is being sold as an "HDMI cable 2.0", which sends up all kinds of red flags due to the way the cable is labeled and marketed. Using dual HDMI outputs has also been reported as having issues, especially if the HDMI output share power or it's HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 or HDMI 1+2, in which case the resolution output may be affected. There may not be an issue is one output is sending audio only but it depends on the mfr.

I am having those issues, e.g. sound missing from one device [I always have had this problem even with 1080P sources]. To be honest, I am giving up with the dual outputs and looking at a seperate device to send a signal to each device.
 
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Supersonic

Member
If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable

That's the problem.

Would a retailer accept a return because of this issue?

Currently I have a Neet 7m High Speed copper cable which is fine, I can leave it plugged into the projector. Trouble is it's not quite long enough, so I'm awaiting delivery of a CSL cable to try (thanks to @panman40 for the tip).
 
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ani4ani

Active Member
That's the problem.

Would a retailer accept a return because of this issue?

Currently I have a Neet 7m High Speed copper cable which is fine, I can leave it plugged into the projector. Trouble is it's not quite long enough, so I'm awaiting delivery of a CSL cable to try (thanks to @panman40 for the tip).

I know it doesn’t help much, but in someways I’m relieved it is a more common issue; it has been driving me insane for weeks (probably months). I picked up a dual output branded AV Amp thinking it would guarantee no issues. I have, as many have purchased the HDMI switches that disappoint or simply don’t do what they claim and cause all sorts of collateral issues. I have been in constant discussion with the Amp manufacture and to be fair they have solved other related issues, but this has remained the one thing that they cannot seem to understand/fix.

Im trying a new switch/splitter tomorrow!
 

Supersonic

Member
I tried a 10m CSL '4K 4:4:4 60Hz', but it doesn't work properly. I'm not that surprised tbh. Will try an 8m Cablesson Ivuna next.

When you power down your pj, is it off at the mains, or in standby?

Edit: @ani4ani Just noticed you updated your previous post to say the fibre cable solved your problems; is that right? Or does it still leave you without tv in passthrough? Cheers
 
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ani4ani

Active Member
I tried a 10m CSL '4K 4:4:4 60Hz', but it doesn't work properly. I'm not that surprised tbh. Will try an 8m Cablesson Ivuna next.

When you power down your pj, is it off at the mains, or in standby?

Edit: @ani4ani Just noticed you updated your previous post to say the fibre cable solved your problems; is that right? Or does it still leave you without tv in passthrough? Cheers

My initial problem that the fibre-optic cable "resolved" was actually getting sound and picture at the projector; the three claimed UHD premium [copper] cables I purchased did not achieve that. [One manufacturer, Snowkids told me subsequently that their 9.5m was not 4K despite the description]

To be honest, the only thing I can determine for sure with the fibre-optic cable is that a) I get picture and sound at both my TV and Projector simutaneously and b) with streamed 4K, the projector looks great. I dont have a source of disc 4K to try it with yet and that is making a little anxious before committing the fibre-optic cable into the wall!

However, if I put the projector into standby, I lose picture and sound at the TV, until I physically pull out the PJ HDMI cable, so that problem still remains. I really am concluding this is either a design flaw or fault with the AV Amp. [Denon AVRX2300]. I plan two more options:

  1. Replace the copper 3m UHD cable to the TV with a fibre-optic HDMI and if that doesn't work....
  2. Only use the AMP to send an output to the projector and use a spiltter [before the AMP] to send a signal to my TV [I only use the TV speakers in the living room so the AMP is somewhat redundant other than sending Sky Q to the TV. [I purchased the AMP to guarantee 4K with the dual outputs!]

Life would be so much easier if Sky Q had two 4K outputs!

We'll see how it goes today!

UPDATE:
  1. Using a fibre-optic HDMI cable to the TV made no difference, i.e. once the projector was placed in standby, the TV loses picture and sound still?
  2. The pre-amp splitter worked, i.e. only having the amp connect to the projector and use the splitter to send signals back to the TV meant that when the projector was placed in standby sound and picture remained on the TV.
Its a bit heath-robinson, but I'm bored silly with this problem now and I will live with this and just accept [for now] that the core reason for me buying this particular amp does not work?
 
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Supersonic

Member
It's a minefield isn't it?!

I need either a 15m cable directly replacing a UKHDMI (where have they gone I wonder?) 15m cable, or a 7.5/8m run via a new route. The latter is tempting because it could potentially allow me to use a copper cable and avoid the issue of not being able to have two displays connected.

Reason I asked about the pj was because our projector is switched off at the mains when not in use.

Do HDMI sockets detect the presence of a cable, even if it's not connected at the other end? Do active hybrid fibre cables become active if only connected at the source end? If so, switching my pj off at the mains isn't going to help with the dual-display issue.

Maybe I should just buy one and return it if I get the issue. I might have to absorb the return postage cost but in the scheme of things that might not be too much.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
It's a minefield isn't it?!

I need either a 15m cable directly replacing a UKHDMI (where have they gone I wonder?) 15m cable, or a 7.5/8m run via a new route. The latter is tempting because it could potentially allow me to use a copper cable and avoid the issue of not being able to have two displays connected.

Reason I asked about the pj was because our projector is switched off at the mains when not in use.

Do HDMI sockets detect the presence of a cable, even if it's not connected at the other end? Do active hybrid fibre cables become active if only connected at the source end? If so, switching my pj off at the mains isn't going to help with the dual-display issue.

Maybe I should just buy one and return it if I get the issue. I might have to absorb the return postage cost but in the scheme of things that might not be too much.

I have the problem if my projector is in standby or disconnected from the mains...sigh.

I have written chapter and verse and sent it to Denon this morning; not hopeful to be honest.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Supersonic - where a device is connected and in 'Standby' it will usually still be involved in a handshake with devices such as an AVR.

It can be useful to ensure a Dual Output AVR has the ability to (quickly) toggle individual HDMI Output ports On/Off to avoid EDID clashes.

Where you have a cable 'disconnected' at the Sink (Display) it will have no bearing on the AVR - having the Sink (Display) Connected but powered Off at the wall could still have an impact on the AVR.

It can come down to how individual manufacturers choose to implement EDID and HDCP.

Joe
 

Supersonic

Member
Thanks Joe

My RXA3050 has an HDMI button, which toggles between HDMI1, HDMI2 and HDMI1+2. It seems to do it quickly(!) but whether it's quick enough I don't know.

I've got another copper cable on order, and a fibre one. Will see what happens.

I'm definitely going to re-route (shorter route) as it will have fewer bends, and less sharp ones at that. It'll essentially go straight up the wall from the bench then along the ceiling void and down out to the projector. Three 90 degree bends but space enough for, say, 10-12" radii.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
The reference to 'quick' toggle was more about how much of a faff the AVR manufacturers can make that feature - some, like your Yamaha, have it as a top level button on a remote so easy to accomplish others have you delving into sub-menus to make a change.

Joe
 

Supersonic

Member
Yesterday I tried a hybrid fibre cable and if I leave my Yamaha on HDMI1+2, I lose the TV picture (at least it isn't watchable, it endlessly flicks between all sorts of picture ratios, am guessing it can't handshake properly).

There's clearly something odd about the way EDIDs/handshaking is dealt with by the cable, as my Xbox One gave an error saying the projector doesn't support 24Hz (it does). A second try worked okay.

Selecting the individual HDMI1 or HDMI2 outs - which means the other one is off - works fine. But that means I can't use the TV at the same time as the projector.

I wonder if this is something that the cable manufacturers will fix in the future?

I have a copper cable arriving shortly, so hopefully that will work and the dodgy hybrid fibre one can be returned.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
I have essentially the same problem, that is when set for HDMI 1+2 I get no picture at the TV and the message “this device does not support HDCP.” If I swap the cables over, I get the same message on the Projector. If only one cable is connected, then I get can 4K TV or Projector on either HDMI port. (With Sky Q, Blu-ray etc)

Since the TV is in the living room and only uses TV speakers, I have decided to split my Sky Q signal before sending the signal to the Amp, allowing only the projector to be connected to the Amp, the tv taking its signal from the splitter. Since the tv only uses Sky Q it “works” for me. I‘m sure the issue is with the Amp?
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
'I‘m sure the issue is with the Amp?' - pinning the issue on any one device is nigh on impossible as individually everything works as required (as highlighted by Supersonic above), the issue is the combination of devices and how they interact.

With the correct diagnostic kit you can 'see' the comms which are flowing from Sink (Display) to Source and identify where an issue lies - fixing it is another matter.

Joe
 

Otto Pylot

Member
The issues mentioned have been coming up more often now that folks are using dual HDMI outputs for audio and video. It apparently isn't so much the cable it's how the receiver "shares" the power to the HDMI inputs, especially when an active cable is connected. And some receivers seem to have issues when sending picture and sound at the same time to two different displays because the HDMI outs have difficulty in switching down to the in-common resolutions.
 

Supersonic

Member
What with it being the weekend I haven't had the kit to myself to test everything out yet.

So far what I do know is:

Receiver on HDMI1+2, projector on standby = no TV picture, or TV switching about (the kids are on the Xbox as I type and the TV goes VGA-1080p-[blank].

Receiver on HDMI1+2, projector off at mains = TV okay

The second situation is good, for me anyway, because the pj is turned off at the mains after use (saves a bit of power but crucially prevents it being turned on via the Harmony 900 'Help' function - but that's another story).

What I need to check next is what happens when both are on. I'm hoping it will just deliver 1080p to both screens and not mess either one up. Then when the kids want to play Fortite against their friends I can put the Xbox on one screen and the HTPC on the other.

The positive side of all this is that the hybrid cable does let me use 4K 60 4:4:4/HDR so I can get the most out of the projector.
 

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