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Question 4K over 15 meters - HDMI, Fibre, Ethernet = one confused consumer

Supersonic

Well-known Member
Aah yes, the mighty scart.

Halcyon days trying to squeeze them through holes in cabinets, then giving up and going with adapters and RCA cables.

The joy at switching to S-Video for 'extra clarity'...

Cutting pins in the plugs to make the cable unidirectional...

Nope, don't actually miss them one bit!

Though I wouldn't miss the HDMI CEC thing either if it disappeared.
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
Though I wouldn't miss the HDMI CEC thing either if it disappeared.
Yep. CEC was a good idea but associating it with ARC, and then not standardizing like the majority of the other HDMI option sets was a huge mistake and has caused more problems than a lof of folks are even aware of.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
We find our RuiPro4K Hybrid Fibre cables to be more ‘system’ friendly vs. any of the ‘all Fibre’ solutions we have tried.

The signal format is unlikely the issue - one potential issue is power, try installing a 5V HDMI Voltage inserter onto the far (TV) end of the Fibre cable.

Joe
Joe,

can you recommend a 5v hdmi voltage inserter - i had a nosy over amazon and it seems mixed results when it comes to 4k/hdr/dolby vision/atmos/dts:x etc....

alternatively... could you recommend an hdmi switch that would cover all of the above for a 5 in 1 out as well - i genuinely dont understand why its easy enough to buy an amp to do all this but nobody has come up with a reliable hdmi switch to do it... sold my surround kit with amp to try and declutter but it seems im spending my days looking for extra devices to make it work simpler... sooo frustrating.

thanks :)

actually - reading reviews think im going to try this one..... ticks all my boxes

 
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mushii

Well-known Member
I think that there are plenty of reliable HDMI switches out there, but Amazon is not the place to look for them. It has started to become a bit of a dumping ground for all sorts of cheap far east (Non-CE marked) electronics, that make wild and unsubstantiated claims about their hardware and Amazon really dont care.

People then have an expectation that the £11.99 Wan-Kee Ting Ultra Pro HDMI switch that is HDMI 1.3 will really do 18Gbs 4K 4:4;4 HDR and are disappointed when it wont. Then they expect somebody else like Kramer or CYP to produce a similar device that will, at £11.99.

Here is a CYP Switch which will do ([email protected] - YUV4:4:4),HDR (High Dynamic Range), 'Deep Color', and High Definition audio
https://www.ivojo.co.uk/component.php?pid=CYP_EL-41HP-4K22
CYP EL-41HP-4K22 - 4:1 4K HDMI 2.0 switcher £345.60 inc. VAT

it will do 4k 60Hz 4:4:4

1572515371861.png


But they are not cheap.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
I think that there are plenty of reliable HDMI switches out there, but Amazon is not the place to look for them. It has started to become a bit of a dumping ground for all sorts of cheap far east (Non-CE marked) electronics, that make wild and unsubstantiated claims about their hardware and Amazon really dont care.

People then have an expectation that the £11.99 Wan-Kee Ting Ultra Pro HDMI switch that is HDMI 1.3 will really do 18Gbs 4K 4:4;4 HDR and are disappointed when it wont. Then they expect somebody else like Kramer or CYP to produce a similar device that will, at £11.99.

Here is a CYP Switch which will do ([email protected] - YUV4:4:4),HDR (High Dynamic Range), 'Deep Color', and High Definition audio
CYP EL-41HP-4K22 - 4:1 4K HDMI 2.0 switcher
CYP EL-41HP-4K22 - 4:1 4K HDMI 2.0 switcher £345.60 inc. VAT

it will do 4k 60Hz 4:4:4

View attachment 1213756

But they are not cheap.
thanks - that makes a lot more sense - what gets me is that i can buy an amp for around £250 that does all the extra but i cant get a simple HDMI switcher for what should be cheaper given that it does less.....

the one you posted would be ideal but i need at least 5 and the cheapest one i see there is £408.... thats well into AVR territory...
 

mushii

Well-known Member
Main issues are economies of scale - Lots of AVRs out there. Joe public wouldnt know the difference between 4k 60Hz 4:2:0 and 4k 30Hz 4:4:4 except for what the sales guy at Curry's tells him or if he thinks that he is a tech-head whatever the interwebs tell him is the best. For 99.999% of the population 4k is 4k is 4k or its whatever your PS4Pro / XBone can allegedly do.
This leaves the door open to Amazon sellers to sell whatever garbage they want making all sorts of wild claims - HDMI Cables being HDMI 2.1 compliant, devices that are HDMI 1.4 but can do 4k 60Hz : HDR10 : 4:4:4 : Dolbyvision : HD Audio.
You really need to look at some of this stuff in detail to actually understand what they are selling. The devil really is in the detail. Or you ask somebody like @Joe Fernand for advice as he sells this stuff daily. He is not going to sell you garbage, but its not going to be pound-shop cheap either.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
Main issues are economies of scale - Lots of AVRs out there. Joe public wouldnt know the difference between 4k 60Hz 4:2:0 and 4k 30Hz 4:4:4 except for what the sales guy at Curry's tells him or if he thinks that he is a tech-head whatever the interwebs tell him is the best. For 99.999% of the population 4k is 4k is 4k or its whatever your PS4Pro / XBone can allegedly do.
This leaves the door open to Amazon sellers to sell whatever garbage they want making all sorts of wild claims - HDMI Cables being HDMI 2.1 compliant, devices that are HDMI 1.4 but can do 4k 60Hz : HDR10 : 4:4:4 : Dolbyvision : HD Audio.
You really need to look at some of this stuff in detail to actually understand what they are selling. The devil really is in the detail. Or you ask somebody like @Joe Fernand for advice as he sells this stuff daily. He is not going to sell you garbage, but its not going to be pound-shop cheap either.
absolutely fair comment... i think the reality is im gonna end up investing as much into my simpler setup as i ever did my separates :D

Thanks for taking the time to reply :)
 

mushii

Well-known Member
I feel like I am coming across as pretty negative here, but I have spent so much time dealing with disappointed people who have bought, cheap wifi extenders / powerline adapters / streaming boxes / hdmi switches etc and are desperately disappointed when their £2k macbook / £2k OLED TV / £1k smartphone don't work properly on the shonky [email protected] that they bought for £20 and then wanting it fixing - cheaply. People are happy to buy expensive designer goods that they can 'show off' to their friends and neighbours but then baulk at paying for half decent infrastructure items (that nobody can see) and will buy cheap 'alternatives' which dont work as described and then spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort trying to make it work / justifying it. You only need to look at the number of threads of people squealing at the price of a 15m Hybrid Fibre cable but will spend £60 - £70 on'alternate' products that generally fail pretty quickly.
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
I feel like I am coming across as pretty negative here, but I have spent so much time dealing with disappointed people who have bought, cheap wifi extenders / powerline adapters / streaming boxes / hdmi switches etc and are desperately disappointed when their £2k macbook / £2k OLED TV / £1k smartphone don't work properly on the shonky [email protected] that they bought for £20 and then wanting it fixing - cheaply. People are happy to buy expensive designer goods that they can 'show off' to their friends and neighbours but then baulk at paying for half decent infrastructure items (that nobody can see) and will buy cheap 'alternatives' which dont work as described and then spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort trying to make it work / justifying it. You only need to look at the number of threads of people squealing at the price of a 15m Hybrid Fibre cable but will spend £60 - £70 on'alternate' products that generally fail pretty quickly.
I don't think you are being negative at all. You're telling it like is. Spot on as far as I'm concerned.
 

Supersonic

Well-known Member
You only need to look at the number of threads of people squealing at the price of a 15m Hybrid Fibre cable but will spend £60 - £70 on'alternate' products that generally fail pretty quickly.
I'd buy a Ruipro/hybrid fibre cable but I can't be sure it will work properly with my AVR and the two displays attached. I can absorb a £20 tester cable, but not a £200 one.

2.1 devices and 48Gbps cables 'coming soon' doesn't help either. Don't want to have to replace my pj cable again for a while, if possible.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
What are you expecting to send to the Projector which the RuiPro4K will not handle?

Conduit is the only way to future proof.

Joe
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
I agree with Joe. The ONLY way to future proof is with a conduit. HDMI 2.1 and reliable 48Gbps cables are not quite here yet, in spite of what marketing and product descriptions claim. Install what you need now for what you have (HDMI 2.0) and just plan for an upgrade path once HDMI 2.1 devices and cables are in the wild, along with adequate source material. A cable mfr can claim their cable can handle a 48Gbps bandwidth but that's not a guarantee that the cable can transfer data that requires 48Gbps reliably and error free because there aren't any devices yet that are fully HDMI 2.1 feature set capable.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
Lindy are playing games with the wording on the 10m cables you link to - no cable over 8m is certified as 'High Speed' or 'Premium High Speed'. Lindy have added 'Premium' to Standard to create its own category of cable (they do say in the tech specs that it is a Standard cable with Ethernet).

Great you have a working solution at 1080p though as others have said that is no indication of how teh system will work with 4K UHD source signals.

Joe
Just add my 2 cents. I have tried 3 cables over 10m with 4K to my new 4K projector and none of them have worked. The first cable I didn’t expect to, as it was a 1.4b cable that was already there from my previous 1080P setup (but I tried anyway). The next two were both claimed to be ultra 4K premium cables, advertised at 18 Gbps [email protected]; neither worked with my Sky Q 2160P output or my 4K Blu-ray player....though both were fine with 1080P.

I am now trying a fibre-optic HDMI cable as a last resort, after that I‘m not sure of what is the answer!
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
Just add my 2 cents. I have tried 3 cables over 10m with 4K to my new 4K projector and none of them have worked. The first cable I didn’t expect to, as it was a 1.4b cable that was already there from my previous 1080P setup (but I tried anyway). The next two were both claimed to be ultra 4K premium cables, advertised at 18 Gbps [email protected]; neither worked with my Sky Q 2160P output or my 4K Blu-ray player....though both were fine with 1080P.

I am now trying a fibre-optic HDMI cable as a last resort, after that I‘m not sure of what is the answer!
There are quite a few reports from projector users who are having difficulty with various HDMI cables over the "magical" 25' distance for 4k HDR. "Ultra 4k Premium" cable is just a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. 1080i/p is not usually a problem with just about any cable. I'm not sure if it's an HDMI input power issue with some projectors because a lot of cables at 10m or longer are active cables. Hopefully the hybrid fiber cable will work (Ruipro4k?) but I've seen issues with that cable and some projectors as well. Maybe a voltage inserter will help.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
There are quite a few reports from projector users who are having difficulty with various HDMI cables over the "magical" 25' distance for 4k HDR. "Ultra 4k Premium" cable is just a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. 1080i/p is not usually a problem with just about any cable. I'm not sure if it's an HDMI input power issue with some projectors because a lot of cables at 10m or longer are active cables. Hopefully the hybrid fiber cable will work (Ruipro4k?) but I've seen issues with that cable and some projectors as well. Maybe a voltage inserter will help.
It is definately a distance thing, i.e. I purchased 2 of the "said" UHD 4K cables from the same manufacturer, one for the Blu-ray to AMP [2m] and the 10m one for the AMP to the Projector. If I dismount my projector and use the 2m cable, everything is fine. The real kicker is that about an hour after your post the manufacturer contacted me by email and advised that their long cable is not 4K able, despite what their claims were. The short one was true 18 Gbps cable.

I didn't buy the Ruipro4k cable simply because I came to the forums as an afterthought, simply as I was trying to find a trusted source of a real cable and to read up on voltage inserters etc. I have a new fibre-optic cable arriving today [that is mentioned as solving someones elses problem earlier in the thead; purely coincidence I have the same one coming however, though I hope for the same outcome].

The most irratating element of my issue was that I ordered my 4K projector and it was on back-order, so I decided to chase in new cables in readiness and redecorate my home cinema. I never imagined for a minute that I would have issues like this. In fact, for a couple of days I was blaming my AV amp and had arranged for a warrany repair; only by chance did I try 1080P again because it also goes to a 1080P TV which wont show with 4K on Sky Q box - bingo, projector and Amp both working fine with "rogue" cable at 1080P

UPDATE: By means of an update, the new cable arrived and works fine [which is a huge relief]. It is the same as referenced earlier in the thread:

 
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Supersonic

Well-known Member
What are you expecting to send to the Projector which the RuiPro4K will not handle?

Conduit is the only way to future proof.

Joe
Hi Joe. Nothing. It's the 'it's a hybrid fibre cable issue' issue! I.e. if I have my 1080p plasma and UHD projector connected to my AVR at the same time, the RuiPro won't work due to it being an active cable.

Nothing is ever future-proof! It's just a question of how long before something becomes obsolete.

I don't have trouble accessing the cable, it's the thought of buying a £180 cable now and then replacing it in 6 months time. Doesn't make sense to me when I can wait a bit.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
Hi Joe. Nothing. It's the 'it's a hybrid fibre cable issue' issue! I.e. if I have my 1080p plasma and UHD projector connected to my AVR at the same time, the RuiPro won't work due to it being an active cable.

Nothing is ever future-proof! It's just a question of how long before something becomes obsolete.

I don't have trouble accessing the cable, it's the thought of buying a £180 cable now and then replacing it in 6 months time. Doesn't make sense to me when I can wait a bit.
I am having a similar problem...I think. If I have my TV and Projector operating at the same time @ 4K, then everything is fine. I have an AVRX2300 Denon Amp using the dual HDMI outputs. If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable? [the new fibre-optic cable referenced above]
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
I am having a similar problem...I think. If I have my TV and Projector operating at the same time @ 4K, then everything is fine. I have an AVRX2300 Denon Amp using the dual HDMI outputs. If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable? [the new fibre-optic cable referenced above]
The cable is being sold as an "HDMI cable 2.0", which sends up all kinds of red flags due to the way the cable is labeled and marketed. Using dual HDMI outputs has also been reported as having issues, especially if the HDMI output share power or it's HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 or HDMI 1+2, in which case the resolution output may be affected. There may not be an issue is one output is sending audio only but it depends on the mfr.
 

ani4ani

Active Member
The cable is being sold as an "HDMI cable 2.0", which sends up all kinds of red flags due to the way the cable is labeled and marketed. Using dual HDMI outputs has also been reported as having issues, especially if the HDMI output share power or it's HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 or HDMI 1+2, in which case the resolution output may be affected. There may not be an issue is one output is sending audio only but it depends on the mfr.
I am having those issues, e.g. sound missing from one device [I always have had this problem even with 1080P sources]. To be honest, I am giving up with the dual outputs and looking at a seperate device to send a signal to each device.
 
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Supersonic

Well-known Member
If I power down the projector and put the AMP in standby [pass-thru], then I lose TV signal, until I physically remove the projector HDMI cable
That's the problem.

Would a retailer accept a return because of this issue?

Currently I have a Neet 7m High Speed copper cable which is fine, I can leave it plugged into the projector. Trouble is it's not quite long enough, so I'm awaiting delivery of a CSL cable to try (thanks to @panman40 for the tip).
 
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ani4ani

Active Member
That's the problem.

Would a retailer accept a return because of this issue?

Currently I have a Neet 7m High Speed copper cable which is fine, I can leave it plugged into the projector. Trouble is it's not quite long enough, so I'm awaiting delivery of a CSL cable to try (thanks to @panman40 for the tip).
I know it doesn’t help much, but in someways I’m relieved it is a more common issue; it has been driving me insane for weeks (probably months). I picked up a dual output branded AV Amp thinking it would guarantee no issues. I have, as many have purchased the HDMI switches that disappoint or simply don’t do what they claim and cause all sorts of collateral issues. I have been in constant discussion with the Amp manufacture and to be fair they have solved other related issues, but this has remained the one thing that they cannot seem to understand/fix.

Im trying a new switch/splitter tomorrow!
 

Supersonic

Well-known Member
I tried a 10m CSL '4K 4:4:4 60Hz', but it doesn't work properly. I'm not that surprised tbh. Will try an 8m Cablesson Ivuna next.

When you power down your pj, is it off at the mains, or in standby?

Edit: @ani4ani Just noticed you updated your previous post to say the fibre cable solved your problems; is that right? Or does it still leave you without tv in passthrough? Cheers
 
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ani4ani

Active Member
I tried a 10m CSL '4K 4:4:4 60Hz', but it doesn't work properly. I'm not that surprised tbh. Will try an 8m Cablesson Ivuna next.

When you power down your pj, is it off at the mains, or in standby?

Edit: @ani4ani Just noticed you updated your previous post to say the fibre cable solved your problems; is that right? Or does it still leave you without tv in passthrough? Cheers
My initial problem that the fibre-optic cable "resolved" was actually getting sound and picture at the projector; the three claimed UHD premium [copper] cables I purchased did not achieve that. [One manufacturer, Snowkids told me subsequently that their 9.5m was not 4K despite the description]

To be honest, the only thing I can determine for sure with the fibre-optic cable is that a) I get picture and sound at both my TV and Projector simutaneously and b) with streamed 4K, the projector looks great. I dont have a source of disc 4K to try it with yet and that is making a little anxious before committing the fibre-optic cable into the wall!

However, if I put the projector into standby, I lose picture and sound at the TV, until I physically pull out the PJ HDMI cable, so that problem still remains. I really am concluding this is either a design flaw or fault with the AV Amp. [Denon AVRX2300]. I plan two more options:

  1. Replace the copper 3m UHD cable to the TV with a fibre-optic HDMI and if that doesn't work....
  2. Only use the AMP to send an output to the projector and use a spiltter [before the AMP] to send a signal to my TV [I only use the TV speakers in the living room so the AMP is somewhat redundant other than sending Sky Q to the TV. [I purchased the AMP to guarantee 4K with the dual outputs!]

Life would be so much easier if Sky Q had two 4K outputs!

We'll see how it goes today!

UPDATE:
  1. Using a fibre-optic HDMI cable to the TV made no difference, i.e. once the projector was placed in standby, the TV loses picture and sound still?
  2. The pre-amp splitter worked, i.e. only having the amp connect to the projector and use the splitter to send signals back to the TV meant that when the projector was placed in standby sound and picture remained on the TV.
Its a bit heath-robinson, but I'm bored silly with this problem now and I will live with this and just accept [for now] that the core reason for me buying this particular amp does not work?
 
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