Question 4K over 15 meters - HDMI, Fibre, Ethernet = one confused consumer

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
Hi All,

So the lounge is possibly getting decorated which means I might finally be able to get a projector :clap:. Originally was thinking the Sony HW45 at 1080p only but the recent Benq W2700 review has got me thinking about 4K. One issue I have is the distance from the AVR and 4K player and the projector. The AVR and 4K player will be on one wall with the TV but the projector will be on the opposite wall, presenting me with a 15 meter cabling challenge to run it round the room. The better half is unlikely to want me to pull everything out the bedroom and lift the flooring up to run a cable above the lounge ceiling! So I have a few questions...…

1. If I understand correctly 4K starts to hit problems at around 10 meters over HDMI. Is that total cable distance or a single leg, for example if I have a 1 meter cable from 4K player to AVR and then a 9 meter from AVR to projector is that 10 meters or 9 meters. Does the AVR break the link and start the count again?

2. Can you run full current 4K spec over ethernet, and if so what adapters would I need?

3. Or does it have to be fibre, again what adapters would I need?

4. Are there any decent flat full current 4K spec HDMI cables that I could run direct under the carpet (note I have concrete floors so can't run under the floor boards)?

I can't be spending £100 on a cable, that's just not an option unfortunately. I'd have to see if a 7 meter cable will work and I unplug it every time from the projector and roll it under the stand when not in use! The ideal scenario would be to have both the PS4 Pro and 4K player plugged into the AVR (Marantz SR7011) and then a single cable to the TV and one to the Projector, even if that does mean constantly unplugging the cable!

Thanks in advance and apologise if these questions have been asked before but I couldn't find answers when searching.

Cheers

Rocket
 

mushii

Well-known Member
A problem that you may face is that HDMI is not designed to be continually plugged and unplugged. Technically it shouldn’t be hot plugged either (it can damage the HDMI port or blow the fusible link). So to minimise risk of damage to your equipment you would need to totally remove power from either end of the HDMI connection, before making or breaking the HDMI connection. That may become tedious.
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
Thanks for the reply.

I currently do this for my sub as I haven't pulled the carpet up yet to run the cable. I agree very tedious but at present the only way. If it's the only way to get 4K at a reasonable price then I'll have to do it
 

ChuckMountain

Well-known Member
The sub is a bit more basic than hdmi cable!

So you have spent a considerable amount on your kit but you don’t want/can’t fund a £150 cable which will do the job in day day out, with no risk as mushii states of damaging your expensive components. Ok makes perfect sense :(
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
Bottom line, at 15m, for reliable 4k HDR, a hybrid fiber cable (Ruipro4k comes to mind) should work just fine. They're expensive but as noted above, you've already got a serious investment so you shouldn't scrimp on cables. The distance is source to sink. You can think of the avr as being both. Sink, when you connect a peripheral to it (UHD/BD player, game box, etc) and a source when you run a cable from the avr to your sink (panel). It's always best to keep your distances as minimal as possible with no switches, wall plates, adapters, etc in-between and run those long cable connectiosn inside a conduit for ease of installation/replacement and to control bend radius. You don't want your run to be so tight as to not have a bit of play at the connection end because you don't want to put any strain on the HDMI input.
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
The sub is a bit more basic than hdmi cable!

So you have spent a considerable amount on your kit but you don’t want/can’t fund a £150 cable which will do the job in day day out, with no risk as mushii states of damaging your expensive components. Ok makes perfect sense :(
I miss read Mushii's post. I thought that although not ideal if everything is powered off most of the risk is gone. Obviously there would be some risk to damaging the connections. The issue with spending £150 on a cable is getting that approved by the wife! Physical hardware isn't a problem but she will see it as £150 on a cable! "Why can't that £20 one do"
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
Bottom line, at 15m, for reliable 4k HDR, a hybrid fiber cable (Ruipro4k comes to mind) should work just fine. They're expensive but as noted above, you've already got a serious investment so you shouldn't scrimp on cables. The distance is source to sink. You can think of the avr as being both. Sink, when you connect a peripheral to it (UHD/BD player, game box, etc) and a source when you run a cable from the avr to your sink (panel). It's always best to keep your distances as minimal as possible with no switches, wall plates, adapters, etc in-between and run those long cable connectiosn inside a conduit for ease of installation/replacement and to control bend radius. You don't want your run to be so tight as to not have a bit of play at the connection end because you don't want to put any strain on the HDMI input.
So just to confirm I understand this, two 6 meters cable would be fine (4K player to amp and amp to projector) for example. I wouldn't actually need a 6 meter from player to amp.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Projector - the simple solution would be to not get one!

TV - have you considered going for a larger TV?

Speakers - how do you plan to lay them out to suit a TV and a projection screen.

HDMI cable - the longest single run is usually the one to worry about.

Joe
 

ChuckMountain

Well-known Member
I miss read Mushii's post. I thought that although not ideal if everything is powered off most of the risk is gone. Obviously there would be some risk to damaging the connections. The issue with spending £150 on a cable is getting that approved by the wife! Physical hardware isn't a problem but she will see it as £150 on a cable! "Why can't that £20 one do"
But on that basis a two hundred pound receiver would be good enough, but yet she allowed you to spend more. The same principle applies in this case surely. A cable that will do the job properly and work is in that ball park. People have tried cheaper hybrid/optical cables and got mixed results. I have no affiliation with Joe but he does know his stuff and we have both commented on a lot of posts for this issue. He sells that particular one as it works properly.
So just to confirm I understand this, two 6 meters cable would be fine (4K player to amp and amp to projector) for example. I wouldn't actually need a 6 meter from player to amp.
Yes it should work but then you amp needs to be somewhere in the middle of the room and your TV will also end up work as longer cable and possibly the components unless they are colocated with the amp. Is your wife happy about that arrangement, I know mine wouldn’t be 😁
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
Projector - the simple solution would be to not get one!

TV - have you considered going for a larger TV?

Speakers - how do you plan to lay them out to suit a TV and a projection screen.

HDMI cable - the longest single run is usually the one to worry about.

Joe
Projector - Hoping that isn't going to happen

TV - A large TV isn't something either of us want really. At least a projector I can hide the screen and just have the casing on show. Plus I love my 3D so that is something a projector has against a TV now!

Speakers - Projector screen would drop in front of the TV. Speakers would therefore be set up for both

HDMI cable - Wicked, thanks
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
But on that basis a two hundred pound receiver would be good enough, but yet she allowed you to spend more. The same principle applies in this case surely. A cable that will do the job properly and work is in that ball park. People have tried cheaper hybrid/optical cables and got mixed results. I have no affiliation with Joe but he does know his stuff and we have both commented on a lot of posts for this issue. He sells that particular one as it works properly.


Yes it should work but then you amp needs to be somewhere in the middle of the room and your TV will also end up work as longer cable and possibly the components unless they are colocated with the amp. Is your wife happy about that arrangement, I know mine wouldn’t be 😁
The advantage I had with the receiver is it was originally intended for a dedicated home cinema room with Atmos, which for various reasons didn't work out. I argued I needed a high end model. If it was for the lounge only I defo wouldn't have gotten it. Believe me you guys have now convinced me on the cable run and not unplug/plug all the time but I need to convince the wife! Its not a lot in the grand scheme of the solution but it is to her.

Oh the 6m and 6m was just to help my understanding. In all likely hood it will be 1 meter from 4K player and PS4 to Amp and then a longer cable Amp to projector.

Cheers for all the input guys, I do appreciate it

Rocket
 

ChuckMountain

Well-known Member
The other option this as I sure a lot of other people do on here is yes I only spent twenty quid on the cable, honest ....
 

mushii

Well-known Member
£150 is a bitter pill to swallow for a single cable, but it is the price of doing 4k AV business over any sort of distance over 8m today. When 8k comes along it is likely to be considerably more expensive as it will require 4 times the bandwidth. I wouldnt be shocked to see £500+ cables
 

ChuckMountain

Well-known Member
When 8k comes along it is likely to be considerably more expensive as it will require 4 times the bandwidth. I wouldnt be shocked to see £500+ cables
And at that point they would be taking the proverbial...

You can fit substantially more bandwidth down fibre than is needed even for 8k. It might need a bit more R&D but cables should not cost any more to manufacture. What they charge though remains to be seen.
 

mushii

Well-known Member
Yes but its the processing at either end to get it into and out of the fibre. I agree that fibre is relatively cheap and shouldnt cost any more. The Samsung 8K link cable is £300 but that has processing in the TV and in the Connect Box, its not all in the cable plugs (afaik). Cramming processing for 18Gbs (full fat HDMI 2.0) was a feat in itself on hybrid fibre cables, cramming in processing for 48Gbs (HDMI 2.1) maybe somewhat more of a challenge.

HDMI 2.1 is also approaching the current physical bandwidth of copper. We have already seen the physical limitations of copper under HDMI 2.0 of 18Gbs @8m . With 2.1 bandwidth being 2.8 times that of 2.0, I am guessing (and this was borne out at CEDIA this year) that Ultra High Speed Cables (copper only) are probably going to have much shorter length limitations, probably down to 2 or 3m max. This means that the only real alternatives (with current technology) greater than these lengths are going to be hybrid fibre or active copper or active fibre, which are not going to be Amazon Basics prices.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
'Believe me you guys have now convinced me on the cable run and not unplug/plug all the time but I need to convince the wife!' - having had to deal with a lot of broken long HDMI cables and fried HDMI Input or Output sockets on kit I would highlight the potential cost of replacing a damged cable, TV, AVR or Projector as the key reason to go with a permanent installation.

10m, 12m and 15m are the most popular lengths of our RuiPro4K cables - those lengths have not changed since the days when we were suppling BetterCables copper cables for HD.

Joe
 

ChuckMountain

Well-known Member
Yes but its the processing at either end to get it into and out of the fibre. I agree that fibre is relatively cheap and shouldnt cost any more.
Sorry when I said R&D costs I meant the new chip if required to meet the HDMI 2.1 spec. However, the chip costs assuming they can fit in the same footprint and excluding the cost of the fab will be the same. Also at the moment the fraction of the market buying this results in high cost but as these or the alternative becomes mass market the price will reduce. (except at Currys :devil:)

The Samsung 8K link cable is £300 but that has processing in the TV and in the Connect Box, its not all in the cable plugs (afaik).
They are taking the mick for early adaptors, mine you the Pioneer copper ones for similar lengths were ridiculous too.

Cramming processing for 18Gbs (full fat HDMI 2.0) was a feat in itself on hybrid fibre cables, cramming in processing for 48Gbs (HDMI 2.1) maybe somewhat more of a challenge.
What actual processing is it doing though, it's not doing any signal manipulation it is just doing format conversion which is not hard to do these days. It just needs to be able to do it quick enough at the given bandwidth. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some future-proofing in the design of these chips so they could use the existing chip fab.

World record for 159 Tb/s Transmission over 1045 km albeit for multimode fibre using a lot of different wavelengths but it's not rocket science to do at lower bandwidths.

HDMI 2.1 is also approaching the current physical bandwidth of copper. We have already seen the physical limitations of copper under HDMI 2.0 of 18Gbs @8m . With 2.1 bandwidth being 2.8 times that of 2.0, I am guessing (and this was borne out at CEDIA this year) that Ultra High Speed Cables (copper only) are probably going to have much shorter length limitations, probably down to 2 or 3m max.
It's approaching the physical limits of HDMI bandwidth for a given design, it is not approaching copper bandwidth. It needs to be implementing in a different way as you can fit a hell of a lot more down copper, again use different frequencies etc. like for example satellite cable (I appreciate that is compressed but it is still a hell of channels down the same cable)

This means that the only real alternatives (with current technology) greater than these lengths are going to be hybrid fibre or active copper or active fibre, which are not going to be Amazon Basics prices.
Yep agreed though I don't think active copper will have that much legs as unless they are doing format conversion to a different cable style which will be expensive, why not go with fibre.
 

mushii

Well-known Member
I appreciate that if you want to look at Frequency Division Multiplexing technologies to push more data down a cable, then yes I agree, but again this all takes processing power, energy, space and ultimately adds cost. I will requalify my previous, given current AV technolgies, for HDMI cables, we are approaching the limits of 'passive' technologies and architecture. Future state is likley to require some form of active technology, which will add additional cost to manufacture.
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
So to my surprise (good job I was sitting down) the wife wasn't as off on the cable cost as she was when first discussed. It did help when I explained about the issue of constantly unplugging and causing connection damage.

So my question for Joe is 'do you do your cables in white rather than black (I know but it's for a lounge!)' and also 'would a 20 meter cable still give me full current 4K spec?'
Cheers
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
So to my surprise (good job I was sitting down) the wife wasn't as off on the cable cost as she was when first discussed. It did help when I explained about the issue of constantly unplugging and causing connection damage.

So my question for Joe is 'do you do your cables in white rather than black (I know but it's for a lounge!)' and also 'would a 20 meter cable still give me full current 4K spec?'
Cheers
20m (60') is long for any cable but the Ruipro4k cables that Joe offers should work for 4k HDR, with possibly the exception of ARC which can have distance issues. As to the color Joe will have to respond to that as I don't know if Ruipro offers their hybrid fiber cables in white.
 

Rocketrazor

Standard Member
I was thinking the 20m because it's only £10 more than the 15m, but allows room for any problems with the run I didn't take into account. Having said that I just recalculated again and I must have hit a double digit last night because i'm at 13.1m today so my original 15m would be enough
 

mushii

Well-known Member
I have a 15m RuiPro and have no Arc issues with mine. Only issue I have had is after a recent power cut I had to (cold) unplug and replug it as the TV was not seeing the AVR at all. This is the only time in 7 months.
 

Otto Pylot

Active Member
I have a 15m RuiPro and have no Arc issues with mine. Only issue I have had is after a recent power cut I had to (cold) unplug and replug it as the TV was not seeing the AVR at all. This is the only time in 7 months.
There SHOULD be no issues with ARC, but at distances longer than 15m (approaching 30m) ARC issues have been reported. Just an FYI for any lurkers who have really long runs.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
ARC with the longer cables (15+) can be very system dependent so tricky to predict without running an actual test.

RuiPro4K - as per the original ‘Henry Ford’ it is black or black, if required you could easily put the cable in a white mesh sheath at minimal cost.

Joe
 

groovyclam

Standard Member
OK, I've not read the whole thread and I know diddly-squat about projectors, so don't kill me if I'm talking crud...

I've recently set up a 30m stretch of HDMI from one end of the house where the PC(Home Theatre) is to the 4K TV in the lounge. The HDMI cable snakes through the fabric of the building and even goes under the garden deck outside.

I used Lindy products ( bit expensive but they let you return them if the setup doesn't work ).

I used 3 x 10m 4K capable HDMI leads, joined together with 2 x HDMI repeaters:

cable link -- 10m Premium Standard HDMI Cable - from LINDY UK

repeater link -- 40m HDMI 2.0 18G Repeater Premium - from LINDY UK

Now, my current source is NOT 4K ( working up to that ) but a 1080p ( with sound ) from the PC is rock solid on the TV.

I wondered if the repeaters would need a power supply ( that is an optional extra ) but it has turned out not to be the case. I would think if the 4K supply fails over this setup when I get a new 4K HomeTheatre, then adding a power supply to one ( or both ) of the the repeaters would fix this.

If 15m is your required length then you'd only need one repeater between 2 x 7.5m HDMI leads.

link -- 7.5m Premium Standard HDMI Cable - from LINDY UK

The repeater is about the size of a box of Swan matches but the Lindy cable is very chunky.

With VAT and postage it looks like it would cost about £150 total.

----

Possibly relevant addendum: if you need to get an IR remote control signal back along the HDMI cable to control the projector, then I use this successfully with the above setup:

 
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mushii

Well-known Member
@ChuckMountain you beat me to it, i was about to post almost the same response.
@groovyclam I really would suggest reading entire threads. Many of the people here are industry experts offering technical advice based on commercial experience, your solution, though well meaning is a bit of a Frankenstein and is unlikely to meet the OPs requirements. It maybe an adequate solution for you currently but is not something that I would use or recommend to a client.

You may also want to look at Lindy's small print, those repeaters are only tested with Lindys' Gold cables which for an equivalent length to the Premium Standard which you linked, are double the price

1571657305263.png


1571657343837.png


And neither cable are Premium Certified. Whereas a premium certified cable on amazon, would cost you £19.99

1571657509997.png
 
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