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436/506XDE + Scaler?

fulllupo

Established Member
Hello all,

Like many who view this forum im sure, im a long time thinker, first time poster, and find this forum a vital resource for info. Been waiting for opportunity to buy a plasma for ages, and have just brought first house so its gonna be first purchase as soon as i move in (I can sit and sleep on floor if i have too!)

Basically I want prob a 42/43", but might go crazy and go 50". I love the way the pioneer looks, but understand that wont produce as good picture as the Pana PHD8 with scaler will, and these are my choices at mo. I.e gorgrous looking screen and have pretty good pic, or fairly average looking screen with scaler and amazing picture.

An alternative option woudl be pio and scaler, and would if poss get me the looks of the pio, and maybe a better pic. Im sure ive read somewhere that you cannot bypass internal processing (or something clever sounding like that) on the pioneer, so scalers wont work, is that correct? Would i see significant improvement with scaler on pio and maybe get rid/help with poss judder issue? I would prob buy the VisionHDP at £1300 odd if i was going to go that route i think maybe, though i know very little about them yet.

On a side issue and while im posting, the new yamaha rx-v2600 reciever is out soon, and that has a scaler built in so i believe, will this actually be any good do you think and save me a fortune on getting the scaler, or am i just dreaming that i can save myself some money for once??

Thanks all for any responses, im sure you will be hearing alot more from me over next few weeks as i try and understand all this jargon etc!

Regards

Paul

..hmm, after posting this i realise maybe im not a first time poster...im sure i havent posted before! wierd!
 

Piers

Established Member
fulllupo said:
Like many who view this forum im sure, im a long time thinker, first time poster, and find this forum a vital resource for info.

As you have been posting on the forum for well over a year this slightly surprises me.


fulllupo said:
Basically I want prob a 42/43", but might go crazy and go 50". I love the way the pioneer looks, but understand that wont produce as good picture as the Pana PHD8 with scaler will, and these are my choices at mo. I.e gorgrous looking screen and have pretty good pic, or fairly average looking screen with scaler and amazing picture.

Just for the moment forget the scaler. The picture quality from the Pioneer 406 and the Panasonic PWD8 isn't miles and miles apart. Same goes for the 506 / PWD8.


fulllupo said:
An alternative option woudl be pio and scaler, and would if poss get me the looks of the pio, and maybe a better pic. Im sure ive read somewhere that you cannot bypass internal processing (or something clever sounding like that) on the pioneer, so scalers wont work, is that correct? Would i see significant improvement with scaler on pio and maybe get rid/help with poss judder issue? I would prob buy the VisionHDP at £1300 odd if i was going to go that route i think maybe, though i know very little about them yet.

Now add in the Lumagen HDP. It will give big improvements with both the Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas. What you have been reading about is 1:1 pixel mapping (I suspect) - the nirvana to avoid the screen doing any scaling. Even without 1:1 the HDP is worth thinking about, not least because of the 11 point grey scale calibration (compared to 2 point on both screens that you have mentioned).

fulllupo said:
On a side issue and while im posting, the new yamaha rx-v2600 reciever is out soon, and that has a scaler built in so i believe, will this actually be any good do you think and save me a fortune on getting the scaler, or am i just dreaming that i can save myself some money for once??

Can't believe that the internal scaler will be in the same league - you're dreaming I suspect.

fulllupo said:
after posting this i realise maybe im not a first time poster...im sure i havent posted before! wierd!

Memory going?? :eek:
 

hornydragon

Distinguished Member
way to play catch up.................. :thumbsup:
 

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Rahmorak

Established Member
If you can afford the 505+Scaler then you should consider the Fuji P50XHA40US+Scaler. It would only be an extra 1k or so. :)

That aside, scalers will work with the Pioneer just not as well as they would with a panel (and I am pretty sure they wont eliminate judder). I seem to remember Gordon saying it can still make a big diif. (edit: and so has Piers now :))
 

fulllupo

Established Member
OK OK seemingly i wasnt the first poster i thought i was! I forgot when i first joined in jan 2004 i was toying with plasma then and must have posted, and also a couple of posts on mobile phones apparently.....ok 50 odd posts! i do have the worst memory in the world!

Anyways, thanks for the resposes!

Piers, do you mean that the 436xde cannot 1:1 pixel map as to bypass screen scaling?

Off topic a bit, and forgive my stupidity, but basically would the best plan be to go:

sky - receiver via RGB scart
(then Sky HD to receiver via HDMI)
xbox 360 - receiver via component
Dvd - receiver via hdmi

then receiver (with hdmi upconversion) to scaler via hdmi

then scaler to screen via hdmi?

Or does everything go to scaler before the receiver/amp?
 

fulllupo

Established Member
Rahmorak said:
If you can afford the 505+Scaler then you should consider the Fuji P50XHA40US+Scaler. It would only be an extra 1k or so. :)

That aside, scalers will work with the Pioneer just not as well as they would with a panel (and I am pretty sure they wont eliminate judder). I seem to remember Gordon saying it can still make a big diif.

Dunno about being able to afford it, but im not gonna let a small prob like that stop me!

For some reason i hadnt considered the Fuji before. Shows what i know! Will obv be demo'ing all options, just need some assistance narrowing down! Then will certainly need more when i go to set up the whole thing! ISF calibration a certainty
 

Eitzel

Established Member
Rahmorak said:
If you can afford the 505+Scaler then you should consider the Fuji P50XHA40US+Scaler. It would only be an extra 1k or so. :)

That aside, scalers will work with the Pioneer just not as well as they would with a panel (and I am pretty sure they wont eliminate judder). I seem to remember Gordon saying it can still make a big diif. (edit: and so has Piers now :))

With the "Genlock" feature enabled on my Lumagen Vision DVI I don't see judder anymore. Smooth as a baby's...

And as Piers points out, the new 11 point greyscale is a revelation.

ISF calibration is a must though. :smashin:
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
If you want to get 1:1 mapping with a Pioneer XDE you need to feed the screen 56.25Hz.
You can't get the pixels to map at 50.00Hz or at 60Hz properly from what I have been told, the timings need to have real small front and back porch etc for it all to fall into place, but the screen won't actually accept them.
If you get it to map at 50Hz you are left with black borders on either side of the screen.
This is all over VGA, of course, with hdmi you have no chance.

Why not go for an MXE1 panel and a scaler instead?
 

fulllupo

Established Member
Nothings ever easy is it! Why cant there be a screen that looks great like the pioneer, had superb picture quality with or without scaler, and has none of these buzz, horizontal line or judder issues i keep reading about! At this rate im just gonna get annoyed and go out and buy anything just to stop thinking about it!

Hmm, not sure about the mxe1, seems to have been out a while and also doesnt have very good contrast from what i read, also doesnt have the look of the 436xde, which is the main reason that im thinking on that as apose to the phd8.

I certianly couldnt live with black borders on the screen though. Would annoy me i know it.

Forgive my lack of knowledge, but i always thought that VGA was 640x480 resolution or something, or is the vga port somethign completely differnt and im getting confused? Is it better than HDMI and the port of choice these days?

Also how do you go about sending the screen 56.25hz or whatever? IS this somehting you have no control over or the scaler can sort for me?

Starting to edge towards the phd8 again now, due to ease, and it doesnt exactly look bad on the wall does it, i just fancied having the beauty xde to greet me each day
 

mitor

Established Member
Hi

Good luck witht the confusing world of plasmas (I'll let others with more knowledge guide you there)


VGA is indeed a 640X480 resolution, it's just VGA is also the generic term applied to the 15pin D-Sub connector on monitors.

VGA (the connector) can go to 1080p resolutions and indeed, further.....
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
The looks of the XDE is what attracts us all! :)

VGA is 640x480, however everyone calls the 15 pin connector a VGA socket too, but it will accept loads of resolutions not just VGA.

56.25Hz will give 1:1 mapping on the Pioneer, and you need to set your scaler to output this and then enter the timings given by Pioneer.

I would say go for an XDE if you are happy with it as it is, if you are the sort of person who wants to squeeze as much as he can then a panel is the prefered choice.

I put this pic up for someone else who wanted to show his better half the Panny panel, this is the 50PHD8 on the wall......

50phd8small.jpg


FULL SIZE IMAGE.
 
M

Munin

Guest
gizlaroc said:
If you want to get 1:1 mapping with a Pioneer XDE you need to feed the screen 56.25Hz.
You can't get the pixels to map at 50.00Hz or at 60Hz properly from what I have been told, the timings need to have real small front and back porch etc for it all to fall into place, but the screen won't actually accept them.
If you get it to map at 50Hz you are left with black borders on either side of the screen.
This is all over VGA, of course, with hdmi you have no chance.

Why not go for an MXE1 panel and a scaler instead?
I have a question here gizlaroc. I have a 506XDE and have set powerstrip to output [email protected],94. The panel says [email protected] I have used the Nokia test pattern to fit the screen, and used the dila pattern from Mark Rejhon to set phase and clock. I get this pattern to look exactly the same(perfect) as it looks with 56,25HZ. Does't this mean I have correct settings at 60Hz? Now 50Hz I can't do. The panel says [email protected] so I might have to give up on this one, but the 60Hz should be right shouldn't it?

This is my settings in powerstrip if anybody is interessted in trying it:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1280x768=1280,42,128,150,768,22,7,41,80368,274

Generic timing details for 1280x768:
HFP=42 HSW=128 HBP=150 kHz=50 VFP=22 VSW=7 VBP=41 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1280x768" 80,368 1280 1322 1450 1600 768 790 797 838 -hsync +vsync

Edit:
Forgot to mention that I have a laptop with ATI Radeon display card so the timings might vary across different display cards.
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
I honestly don't know mate, I was talking with a few guys when I was going to get the 506XDE in Hong Kong and thay all said that you could only Pixel map 100% at 56.25. I couldn't see why you can't do 60 and 50 myself, even if there were small borders or a little too much overscan, but they assured me you couldn't get all the processing on the panel to turn off apart from at 56.25.

I reckon if you have the Nokia test pattern looking perfect then you are there?
 
M

Munin

Guest
One odd thing though. At 56.25 I don't get to use the different PC modes for XGA signals, while at 59.94 I do...
 
J

JetJockey

Guest
Hi Gents.

Slightly off topic (or perhaps not).

You all mention scalers. I am thinking of taking the plunge on a Lumagen.

I understand the theory regarding the advantages. But for those that have scalers, what real effect can be seen on the picture? Is there a noticeable improvement? If so.........how?

Thanks, Gerald. :)
 

fulllupo

Established Member
Eitzel said:
With the "Genlock" feature enabled on my Lumagen Vision DVI I don't see judder anymore. Smooth as a baby's...

And as Piers points out, the new 11 point greyscale is a revelation.

ISF calibration is a must though. :smashin:

Cheers for the assistance guys.

Eitzel, did you notice a big differnce with your xde after adding the scaler? Did you have judder before?

Cheers for the picture of your phd8 giz, looks realy good and also the PQ looks fantastic.

Guess ive just got to weigh up whether i want best possible picture (phd8 with scaler) or best looking screen but just pretty great picture (436xde poss with scaler).

First thing has to be to go and have a look at some xde's and see if the PQ is acceptable to me. I do like perfection so it better be good.

When ive finnaly sorted this out ill have to start choosing reciever, dvd and speakers! Argh, not as fun as i thought it would be!

Ta
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
The image is alot sharper when you bypass the internal processing of the scaler therefore letting far more detail come through, giving depth in the image you just don't get without a scaler. You also have total control over colour, black level etc.
I bought my scaler to improve TV more than anything so I went for the Crystalio with Faroudja deinterlacing rather than the Lumagen which uses the Sil504 chip, as I feel it handles Pal video sources better.
You really need to decide what you want to get out of your scaler and then look at the options available.
 

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