1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

433MXE Greyscale at new/then 200hrs

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Gordon @ Convergent AV, Jan 29, 2003.

  1. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    My images are too big for psoting so here is a written acount.

    I set front panel controls on my new MXE when I got it then measured some things. Then I calibrated it and measured again. Now 210hrs later I've done it again to see if initial burn in has affected image.

    HERE WE GO...Original measurements taken after about 10-20 hrs on display.
    Before calibration average temp was 8419K
    After this was 6795K but the 295 above what we were looking for was due to a blue/green tinge at very low (under10ire) light output skewing measurements
    After 200hrs it’s now 6598K average.

    The reality is that 180hrs ago it was nudging above and below 6500K across the board from 10ire up. Not is peaks around 6550ish and and goes down drops slightly more as the average would indicate. So the average temperature has dropped by around 180K. The CIE co-ordinates are still very good and close to ideals. This difference would be very hard for anyone to notice in real terms.

    I will carry out same measurements at 400hrs.

    Regarding Fulabeers comments on colour etc. I will try to post a picture to explain what he sees tomorrow.

    Gordon
     
  2. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    Interesting stuff Gordon. The implication is that it's best to wait until the initial burn in period is complete, or at least well under way, before using a calibrating service such as that supplied by yourself. Mind you this assumes that the initial drop off is higher than that in subsequent hours. The 400 hour tests should tell us this - hope you keep the plasma switched on :)

    Look forward to your post explaining fulabeers comments on colour.

    DJP
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    DJP: I would always suggest 100hrs of burn in before calibration on a plasma/lamped projector. One of my calibrating colleagues in USA, Cliff Plavin owner of Progressive Labs, has done hundreds of plasma dislays and believes that after 100hrs they stay the same. I have no reason to doubt him as he's the man when it comes to plasma cals.

    Anyway on to Pauls comments about colour, brightness etc.

    I have not put a 433 and a D5 beside each other and calibrated tehm then watched same piece on both. Perhaps we'll do that at Event2. I can say that black level is obviously lower on a Panny and that I agree that the darkest black is poor in my eyes on a Pioneer. It's the thing I find most annoying about mine. There are solutions though to make it less obvious and more easy to watch. Bias lighting.....Get a 6500K light source and put it behind or eother side of plasma and set it to provide a nice glow of light . Your eye will compensate and the black's will look darker. That's on my list to do when I wall mount my 433. The light output of the Pioneers is greater I believe. It's too much though. Factory settings out the box for contrast are eyeball burning...in fact probably phosphor burning. Mine is way way down..and looks much more pleasing to look at because of it.

    Colour: I'm going to post some pictures which will graphically show what I am going to try and explain. I have top then go for some meetings in Glasgow so feel free to fire questions and I will try to answer if possible before or after I go for the day.

    There are standards written down that define PAL or NTSC or other broadcast formats. In amongst these are the figures for what the colour of red/green and blue should be. If you look out the window at grass or leaves you will see they are varying shades of green. Well, for a replay chain to work you need to decide what shade is going to be the green you are going to mix with red and blue to create your colours. The same for red and blue. If the guy telecining film to video is using a monitor with different coloured phosphor to you and me then we are never going to see the sort of colours they were aiming for when they did the video conversion process.

    I am going to post a series of CIE Charts with triangles on them. The CIE chart is a graphical representation of the colours the eye can see. It has a grean wedge towards top with the blue and red light to left and right. You can see where red tends to greeen you get yellow..etc just like mixing paints in art class. Each corner of the triangle is the co-ordinate of the primary colour chosen by the display manufacturer. Displays can only physically display colours that are inside the triangle. You'll see that the standard for PAL has lots of colours we can't ever display. You might also notice that even if we had red, green and blue at the very points of the whole wedge there would still be colours we could never display.

    The bits that display manufacturers often get wrong deliberately are the colours of red and green. Red is usually pushed towards orange and green is more lime green. This is done to increase light output as most devices are sold on how bright it is and how many pixels rather than how accurate it is and how few artifacts. No one knows what colour the red should be in your pie chart power point presentation......

    I'm rushing now as I am late so I may have missed a pertinent point...but here goes.

    First I'll post the CIE chart for where the phosphors should be in a PAL system
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    Next is the Panny: You'll see it is actually pretty close with green. Red is slightly de-saturated and blue is as well. On the whole though this is pretty close.

    Gordon
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    Last my 433: You can see it has a good blue but red and green are not right at all. Red is not that heavily saturated and is skewed to orange and green is pushed right up. This means it has a alarge gamut of green light it can chuck out and that reds can never be the deep red that a more accurate display can generate. It's no-where near as bad as these things used to be and it only annoys me on material I've seen on my colour filtered 9" crt previously.

    This is the main source of what Paul was commenting on. I hope it helps explain a little what we see.
     
  6. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    Thanks for the informative post Gordon. It would be interesting to see the two displays properly calibrated side by side. When/where is Event2?

    I guess I must have fallen into the trap which the manufacturers set as far as the Pio is concerned. However, I didn't really see that much of a difference in terms of the colour of the reds and greens when we were watching the displays side by side at NexNix. Maybe this is just my poor eyesight, although I didn't think that my eyesight was that bad..:)

    I guess I have to ask you a cheeky question ... feel free not to answer if you don't want. Now that you have had chance to calibrate and watch the Pio and presumably other customers Panny's if you had to buy the plasma again would you still go for the Pio or the Panny?

    For what it's worth I still stick by my decision as I thought that the display looked better overall. However, I'm now wondering how much of this was due to the higher resolution of the Pio. Also, perhaps the DVD we chose for the comparitive tests didn't excercise the reds to the same extent as Pauls tests did. Hmmm need to ponder that for a little while.

    Derek
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    Choices Choices.

    My situation at home is that I must sit close to my screen. In fact I like sitting close. With the lower res panels I think I would too easily see the pixel structure. My feelings are that both have issues but both are actually good products. I am happy to watch my 433. I am looking forward to getting the KEY card though!

    If you put up a colour bar pattern from AVIA on to the plasma's you should be able to see the colours of red and green and blue and their difference between each other. With programme material try the third scene in Mi2. There are 4 women dancing around a central one. The one in the centre has a deep red dress on. The others have reddy orange dresses. I have seen display devices where all look orange.......It's not definative but it will probably show the effect Paul mentions.

    Gordon
     
  8. ncpl

    ncpl
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    348
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Surrey
    Ratings:
    +1
    Gordon,

    sorry if I missed it in a previous post, but, what will the KEY card do over and above the 5002 ?

    cheers

    Nick
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    The biggest benefit should be superior picture quality. How it will achieve this is by superior video decoding, video de-interlacing and scaling.

    It also has more inputs I think and it has an ability to route digital and analogue audio through it to delay the audio to re-sync with picture. The difference in reduced artifacts should be most obvious with any film sourced PAL material closely followed by video source material from NTSC or PAL land.

    Hope to put up Special pricing on it tomorrow. I've recently seen the scaler on which it is based and thought the image was very very good. That is why I am quite excited.

    Gordon

    p.s. Here is a link about the guy designing the thing. If you are asked for passwords just click cancel and it should appear.

    http://www.keydigital.com/press_releases/mikefatherdvd.doc

    If you want to find the product you can just go to www.keydigital.com and it should be easy to find
     
  10. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    Thanks for the tip regarding the AVIA disk Gordon. I'll try that as soon as it arrives - bought it from Amazon in Canada and it's currently in the UK but sadly not yet delivered to my house.
    :(

    I'm also looking forward to hearing about and seeing the Key Digital card but - as I mentioned on the other thread - the $US price is a bit high. Hopefully it will come down a bit.

    Derek
     
  11. Paul D

    Paul D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Messages:
    2,620
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +391
    Derek, please don't regret anything or worry about your demo etc.
    As Gordon has said both screens are very good, and i can say the neither screen is "best" as they both have different strengths.
    Thats why i mentioned that the Sony had better brightness than both screens!
    I have spent hours travelling to different venues to view different displays/projectors, and feel that i'm getting used to what good displys can offer.
    I also own a very nice Barco 808s 8" CRT projector from Roland of B4 Projection.
    I take advice from both Gordon and Roland very seriously, as these guys really know there stuff!.
    But just to show that nothings perfect, even a projector costing £18,000 new still doesn't show reds at the correct gamut!. My Barco still nudges towards the orange with reds.
    I think thats why i was so taken with my Panasonics "blood" reds.
    Gordons comments on green being pushed to help with brightness reminds me of one thing the "very bright" Sony had wrong, was yellows looked very lime!
     
  12. saggio

    saggio
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +1
    maybe slightly off subject here, but I have spent 2 hours calibrating my new MXE433 with the AVIA disk to find out that optimum position for all controls is "0" (i.e. default).....!
    Only exception was the "colour" control that had to be pushed up to +10 in order to match the saturation on RED.

    Anyone else has got the same experience?
     
  13. StooMonster

    StooMonster
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,970
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +314
    Dones't Avia only calibrate your NTSC settings?

    StooMonster
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    If you set your black level for NTSC to 0ire on your DVD player then it will do a great job for PAL as well.

    I have a PAL disc though for checking.(not avia)

    Gordon
     
  15. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    fulabeer, don't worry, I've no regrets with the Pio. I still think it's awesome. I am still confused why we got different results on some of the tests but I don't think we will ever get to the bottom of it unless we were both able to see both setups.

    I must admit that the knowledge of the people on this board is excellent, as is the advice.

    saggio - when you did your calibration did you just change the settings in the normal user menus or did you go into the integrator menu? There appear to be more settings in the integrator menu and I wonder if these give finer adjustment.

    You may also want to look at this thread;

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55529

    which has some settings for the intergator menu from installer09.

    Gordon - Thanks for the tip regarding the 0ire setting for the Avia disk. The Avia disk has - literally - just arrived so I'm about to have a play and from memory my Arcam PAL settings have 7.5 for ire so I would have probably messed up there.

    Probably a bit premature - as I haven't played with the disk yet - but what's the best way to set up the RGB High low values for the white balance? (Perhaps this is best left to the experts like Gordon but I've made a note of the original settings so I can always go back to them if I make a mistake).

    Derek
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    Derek: There are two ways of doing the RGB high low settings. One is to use a video analyser to measure the colour of light the device is outputting.
    The other is to use a reference light to adjust to match.

    Use of a reference light is only accurate after a great deal of experience.

    Doing it by eye without a reference isn't a good idea. The eye has an auto white balance facility so things which aren't correct it will try and compensate for.

    The white balance bit is what folk hire me to do. I have test equipment to enable me to do this accurately.

    Gordon
     
  17. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    Well, I've just spent an hour setting the screen up. Tried setting up my old Philips Matchline TV and the 433MXE at the same time.

    This set-up stuff isn't as easy as it looks and I think I'll have another go tonight. For what it's worth the settings I ended up with are;

    Contrast -10
    Brightness +2
    Color 0 (sorry about the US spelling)
    Tint 0
    Sharpness -4

    I must admit that it was tough to set up the Sharpness - didn't seem to make a lot of difference.

    Getting the Saturation correct was also tricky and I'm definitely going to have another go at that as I'm sure that the Color setting was higher than 0.

    Haven't had time to sit and watch much stuff yet but I did try the Mi2 scene which Gordon recommended. I can see what he means. In comparison to the TV the woman in the middle with the red dress was leaning towards the orange - although it was obviously more red than the surrounding women.

    I did note that I saw deeper reds through the S-Video connection than I did with the YUV which seems a little odd. Putting the Color Temp to High seemed make the YUV a little closer to that of the S-Video but I haven't had time to see what other effects that may have.

    I'll try to do some more experimentation tonight but I can see that it may be well worthwhile to get Gordon in to do some tweaking :)

    Derek

    PS setting the Philips Matchline was non-trivial. I couldn't get any where near as close to the correct settings on this as I could with the Plasma which shows that it was well past time to replace it
     
  18. DJP

    DJP
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    72
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +5
    Aaaargh....forget the settings in the above post the Pio stores the individual settings for the inputs with PAL and NTSC so although I set it up on NTSC it had switched back to some old PAL settings I had tried when I then played some normal DVD's. Another reason why Gordon sets these up in the Installer menu no doubt.

    I played around with the Avia disk some more last night and tried the different colour temperatures. Hmmm further experimentation is required. I can see the differences but I'm not sure which is best. Regardless as to the settings I couldn't get the reds on the dress in the Mi2 scene to be as deep as those seen on the telly and this would seem to validate fulabeers findings.

    Current settings are (right ones this time);

    Contrast 0
    Brightness 0
    Color +6 (sorry about the US spelling)
    Tint 0
    Sharpness 0

    I still can't see much effect with the Sharpness control on the Avia disk unless it is turned up extremely high. Anything from +7 and lower looks much the same to me - perhaps my eyes need testing or I'm looking for the wrong things.

    When checking the contrast the resolution limit appear to be +4. However, this setting seems way too high - especially in light of Gordon's comments regarding the Pio contrast settings. The Avia disk wasn't clear on whether it should be set to the limit or lower with regards to Plasmas. I'll listen to the instructions again and have another go.

    Sadly can't play with it this weekend but I'll try additional tests next week.

    Derek
     
  19. saggio

    saggio
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +1
    DJP,
    seems that you have come nearly to the same settings as I have! Mine are:

    Contrast 0
    Brightness -1
    Color +10
    Tint 0
    Sharpness 0

    When setting the Contrast (White Level) I also found that the limit would be high (~+10), too high for confort with a new Plasma...
    I believe that they said that the OPTIMUM setting is when one (not both) of the white moving vertical bars disappear against the white background. But still that gives a high setting (~+6) for me, so I set it back to zero

    Sharpness: likewise I saw very little variation moving the cursor. The only thing that I managed to spot was a sort of white ghosting along black lines, increasing with higher setting. Again I found that ZERO was the best setting, before any ghosting appeared.

    INTEGRATOR MENU:
    I can try it, but is there any risk of messing up some other settings and not being able to go back?
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    If you go in to integrator mode write it all down...........Also realise that as soon as you go in to that mode the user settings will be set to default.

    With AVIA you should see BOTH moving bars in dark and light areas. I think the maximum point where this occurs is too bright for contrast and should be turned down further to avoid damage to display.

    Gordon
     
  21. saggio

    saggio
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +1
    thank you Gordon.
    I will try the Integrator this weekend: whish me luck...

    I certainly agree that setting the White Level in accordance with Avia (way UP) may be dangerous for a new Plasma.

    I was also surprised to have to turn UP the Colour control, while they say (Avia) that most consumer TV (Plasma?) have artificially high colour settings so to make more "vibrant" and therefore most of the time it should be turned DOWN. But following the RED test, to me, it is necessary to turn it up a lot...

    Another case of Avia being not well suited for Plasmas?
     
  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    AVIA is fine for plasma's. Remember that it's not a TV. It's a PC display...

    Gordon
     
  23. saggio

    saggio
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +1
    I know,...but that's not what I've told the wife...
    Thanks again.
     
  24. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779

Share This Page

Loading...