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42" plasma

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by TomH, Mar 4, 2005.

  1. TomH

    TomH
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    We're looking for a 42" HD ready plasma tv. We don't need one with speakers. What's the best? Our salesman is recommending a Sony PFM-42B2 but we're not sure .
     
  2. hornydragon

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    you are right to be wary i am prety sur ethe Sony is not HD ready...Are you in the UK?
     
  3. TomH

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    No United States. According to Sony website it is HD ready.
     
  4. hornydragon

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    Ah that makes a differnce In the UK SOny range is very limited and quite poor!
    while it is great to have members from the other isde of the pond we are a mainly UK/European forum. try the AV science forum which is US based and more relevant to your new purchase. but feel free to hang around here tho..
     
  5. kourosh

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    yep its a usa model(and high def only in us) but you can get it in this country also its a professional screen
     
  6. hornydragon

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    kourosh was the res on the panel? 1024x768?
     
  7. kourosh

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    dragon its 1024x1024 :thumbsup:
     
  8. kourosh

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    also it has the high def reciever built in
     
  9. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Thats IS NOT HD it is ALIS (try a search) and is really 1024x512x2 hence does not have the 720+ vertical pixel need for HD

    THIS IS NOT A HiDef SCREEN
     
  10. kourosh

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  11. kourosh

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    type the model in the box sony pfm-42b2
     
  12. hornydragon

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    Like i said 1024x1024 is ALIS and
    a): does not ahndle 720p very well
    b): struggles to display the full picture info in a 1080i signal
    c): Does not have 720+ vertical lines so does not conform to EICTA HD-Ready Spec

    Do you really think "dealtime" know anything about plasma technology ALIS has 512 vertical pixels in 2 fields X and Y and alternitively display each field (X then Y then X then Y etc etc only ever have 512 pixel rows on at anyone time!)
    IT is not a Hi definition Screen...
    (I'll accept your apology now, I thankyou)
     
  13. pjclark1

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    I love that, Dealtime know even less than the salesmen in Comet!
    (if that's humanly poss.)
     
  14. kourosh

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  15. Nick_UK

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    Just because the pixel rows are not illuminated at the same time doesn't mean that you don't see them, because of a thing called "Persistance of Vision". Ordinary CRT screens are only scanned by a flying dot, but you see a complete picture.

    It is a commonly held (and totally false!) belief that Alis panels only consist of 512 lines. The fact that the pixel rows are addressed alternately doesn't mean that there isn't 1024 of them. Alis panels have the advantage that because there are fewer connections going to the pixels, the gap between the pixels can be smaller, resulting in a larger and brighter pixel. All this can be checked out on the Fujitsu web site (Fujitsu being the inventor of the Alis panel).
     
  16. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    yes i agree but in terma of discrete resolution which is what we are talking about the are 512 X-Y pairs they do not display indepenant images so it has not got 720+ individually addressed pixels (while alis is good for a bright clean image ideal for digital signage which is what it was invented for it is not as good as the "normal" HD glass from Pionner/Panny ( Iwould add NEC but they are horrendous)

    AND yes they can all be wrong....
    Taken from Hitachi digital media site alis alows the pixels to work half as hard as the work load is shared by the X-Y pair ie there are only 512 pairs... what Alis does is create a half frame between the normal frames of video
    But still only 512 vertical RES!
     
  17. kourosh

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    ok then they are all wrong they can make the apology then for giving wrong info ;)
     
  18. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    And you can apologise to the original poster for giving him misinformation! Ask your Sony Rep next time you see him and ask him if ALIS (if he knows what that is! ;) ) is HD ready or under (I am using EICTA definition)
     
  19. Nick_UK

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    So, you're saying that the 625 line pictures we've been watching all these years have only been 312.5 lines ?

    I don't think so. Pixels are not indivdually addressed, Horneydragon. They are addressed by a matrix. All Alis panels have done is to refine that addressing system, so that fewer electrode connections are needed.

    All explained here :

    http://www.fme.fujitsu.com/products/displays/pdptech.html
     
  20. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    no no no but the 576 lines of PAL video are displayed on CRT in interlaced scanning (ALIS is not interlaced or progressive it is in fact ALIS a different way of doing things)
    interlaced is the 288 odd lines then the 288 even lines done at 50Hz ie 50 times a second each field is displayed within the time for a whole scan (this requires 2 passes over the phosphurs/glass) ALis displays teh info on the X lines then shifts to the Y lines this is done so fast the phosphurs on both X & Y lines will glow (it looks seemless) but there are still only 512 pairs to be HD it would need 720+ pairs and be 1024x1440 (just bescause the marketing departments misquote the res as 1024x1024 doesnt mean it is true, yes there are 1024 spots of phosphur in the glass structure but only 512 "lines" of video driving them)
     
  21. kourosh

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    i cant ask the rep cause that screen is pro model screen and it comes under a different sony company we only deal in the home products sony is split into a few different company's
     
  22. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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  23. peezee

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    Horny, this has been discussed to death already, and I'm afraid you're still not right about ALiS screens, sorry...

    Here's a pic taken from the Fujitsu site (they invented the ALiS technology, this drawing is most probably accurate :D ):

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, there are actually 1024 separate physical rows of pixels. They are lit alternatively, not simultaneously, but so rapidly that the eyes and brain believe they're lit simultaneously, and thus form a whole frame made of -and here's the key thing- 1024 lines containing *distinct information from one another*.

    In other words, the odd lines are not just repeating the even lines (thus forming in reality what would be a 512 lines picture), they contain picture information that's different from what the other 512 "even" lines contain.

    Matter of fact, on that site you'll find details on how any incoming video signal is upconverted to a 1024p format (i.e. NOT 512p), then displayed in an interleaved fashion (1024i) i.e. in two 512 fields alternatively. In fact I think the ALiS screens should be described as having a resolution of 1024x1024i - and not 1024x512x2 as you suggest. Not sure if they should be classified as "greater than 720 lines" TBH, but at least they're not 512 lines displays.

    Having said all that, ALiS panels do have weaknesses, the lack of contrast and dark-grey blacks (nowhere near as black as on Panny's) being the most annoying, imo.
     
  24. Nick_UK

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    Thanks for confirming that :)

    I did post a link to the Fujitsu information, but it didn't seem to help.
     
  25. hornydragon

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    YEah i know who invented ALIS, why they invented ALIS what ALIS is designed for. I dont beleive that the Diagram above shows the while story (i diagram i have seen many many times) as it shows Alis compared to standard plasma not Alis compared to source video signal they odd even line is a an Extrapilation of the source video (it trys to fill in the gaps of what it thinks should be there) My understanding of the technology leads me to beleive that the screen has an effective 1024x512x2 resolution not the 1024x1024i that you are suggesting, I may be wrong but i would like someone from Fujitsu/Hitachi Technical (in Japan) to explain it without the marketing BS

    (this all started around the is ALIS Hi-Definition i say no it isnt doesnt have 720+ progressive vertical res. ALis is an OK technology nad the screens are higher resolution (note there is a difference between resolution and Definition) and certainly have there place (I'm not MAW you know)
     
  26. Roswell

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    I knew what Alis was when I got up this morning, but I think it must have been changed several times since then.
    Does this help? I found it over on a US forum faq: http://www.avsforumfaq.com/~plasma/
    (Search for 'alis') Seems Alis is usually 512 but can display 1080i by using both fields though with questionable quality.

    QUOTE:

    The following list describes how different sources are displayed with ALiS (thank you to TrainerDave):

    720p: each field downconverted to 512 rows

    480p: each field is slightly upconverted to 512 rows

    480i: each field is upconverted to 512 rows,

    1080i: each field is cut (not downconverted) from 540 to 512 rows [/list] 720p is displayed in 1024 by 512 *resolution* spread over 1024 rows of pixels.

    So the 1024 by 1024 is "used" to display a 1024x512 - resolution image. For progressive sources the resolution that you actually see is 1024X512. 1080i is displayed in its native vertical resolution over 1024x1024 pixels. Each field that comes in is shown on its own 1024 x 512 interlaced pixels.

    ALiS is supposed to be perfect for a 1080i source as the vertical resolution nearly matches up. You simply lose a few rows top and bottom instead of having the image vertically scaled so there are also no scaling issues. Plus the source is interlaced anyway. In practice though this does not seem to bear out.

    There are a number of posts about the Fujitsu 4233(852X480 progressive) vs. 4242(ALiS) and most people observe that HD or other images were noticeably better on the non ALiS panel which lists at $2000 less. This could be the result of better black levels on the 4233 or different scaling requirements but it is highly recommended that you compare yourself before buying an AliS 1024X1024 panel as most people here prefer the 852X480 panels. The only people that really prefer the AliS panels are those that can see the pixel structure on the 852X480 panels. But that is another topic!

    ---divvy
     
  27. peezee

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    Allright... I'm trying to put some more thinking into this, and considering that ALiS screens display pictures in an interleaved fashion, try to figure out how would the various possible input video signals (480I,480p,576i,576p,720p,1080i) be resampled and displayed...

    After a short analysis I'm led to believe that:
    I've read many times here and there from Hitachi owners that they thought their plasma display had a better picture when fed an interlaced signal. The above, if correct, might explain it.

    Need to spend some more time on this to be more confident that the above is correct though, but right now it looks like Horny's partly right (and I'll have no pbm to admit it if that's the case :D ) - but I'm partly right too! :) :clap:
     
  28. hornydragon

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    if alis was interlaced it would be that simple unfortunately it isnt interlaced.......the reason an interlaced picture looks better is down to the ALis processor connect it to a fujitsu with AVM (the incredibly complex and expensive DSP chip they designed and use,main reason for price difference between Hitachi and fujitsu screens) and that doesnt hold up. Interlaced is easier to process than progressive and also the native format of DVD disc (Y Pb Pr at 480i or 576i). De-interlacing requires additional processing that is undone by the Alis panel so why bother doing it, especially on most sub £500 DVD players whose progressive output isnt that hot......but with 1080i alis does act oddly!
     
  29. peezee

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    :confused: err... ALiS are not interlaced panels? Interesting... Horny, I'm trying to understand what you're saying above but well... I don't. I won't mind a clearer reiteration if you have the time for this (otherwise don't bother) ;)
     
  30. hornydragon

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    ALis is not as simple as interlaced it is very har to explain but watch the flash demos on the fujitsu site, sorry cant link to the with their daft HTML stucture
     

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