3D proj: JVC X5000 versus Epson EH-TW9400

ask4me2

Active Member
If I remember correctly Diddern, you also use your projectors with shorter throws to the screen with the widest angles (max zoom) that will often give out more light from zoom lenses too.

Do you get 110" picture size on the N5/N7 lenses, isn't that some of the reason you got the Nx9?
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
So if I assume JVC is 73% as bright as Epson, that leaves me at 150'' on a JVC with 58ish nits?
How many lumen do you count on getting from the JVC?
 

Diddern

Active Member
If I remember correctly Diddern, you also use your projectors with shorter throws to the screen with the widest angles (max zoom) that will often give out more light from zoom lenses too.

Do you get 110" picture size on the N5/N7 lenses, isn't that some of the reason you got the Nx9?
Correct, but now I have enough space for the N5 and N7 also to fill my screen. But they need 20cm more from lens to screen to fill my 110 inches.
 

Alaric

Well-known Member
DCI P3 or Rec 2020 is not a problem and dont create less natural colors, that is something that you can put on the source mastering masterings, net display capabilities, i see a trend in movies mastered to pop more, color saturation turned up, getting a bit the TV display mode trend.

Look at all the antike movies remastered in 4K HDR, simply and utterly horrible trend, unless you have a slap me in the face, or polish my movie grain until it all looks like CGI fetish.
Just to sell the movie one more time to some collectors.

Would be interesting to make a blind test with a normal 1080P blu ray movie, one test running standard rec 709, and another profile where it tracks perfect rec 709 to 80% saturation and then stops there, a bit like how we do with most displays that dont cover 100% DCI P3, map it as good as possible until we run out of color.

I think you will find it very hard to point out the limited Rec 709 profile, as very little information is mapped in these high saturations.

If a movie creator desire to make a movie look more dynamic and saturated its possible to do so in the 1080P format, just take 4K demo clips on youtube, that you stream in normal 1080P standard, and you go wow, check out Peru 8K, the grass has never been more blue anywhere in the world, and to say the least, the view looks nothing like that from the peak of Machu picchu.

So no, most movies is not made to reproduce how real world look like, least at all the nature demo clips, and no DCI P3 is not a must have to create a realistic look of a everyday scene, where on the scale do normal painted colors fit into the visual limitations/ rec 2020/ rec 709?

Why do we need a format that dont fit with with most displays capabilities, why do i feel we are back to DVD upscaled to HD, with the choice of different deinterlacing and scaling options, non of them perfect, we have 1080P blu ray that today, partly thanks to 4K and WCG tracks extremely nice on most modern displays, 1:1 pixel mapping, or a very simple 4X upscaling, no odd scaling, no deinterlacing, no mocking around with color gamut compromises. Then we have 4K, that positively is a 1:1 pixel mapping to most displays, and then it mostly stops there, players, movies need metadata, not all have, some are wrong, processors need to analyze frames or scenes to make qualified DTM curves, guess work, that is constantly evolving, along with multiple HDR formats fighting to be the right one, do we need 10000 nit, i cant see what for, in a real world situation you will close your eyes going from dark to very bright, do we want to reproduce real world dynamic conditions, like getting out of the basement into the sun or the other way around, and then be blind t´for 30sec while our eyes adjust.

Im a fan of keeping the movie material inside our eyes/ visual systems static dynamic capabilities, i think it helps enjoy a movie, or multiple movies without stressing our visual system, not challenge our dynamic visual system going from fully closed to fully open iris in the eyes, losing 10% of the movie, and ende up with itchy eyes and a headache.

In a super bright daytime living room in modern white minimalist environment, sure crank up the light output and color saturation, your blinded by the sun, it takes a lot to outshine that one.

In my cinema im just super happy with 14fl 2.4 power gamma and 200000:1 on off contrast, not adjusting sliders pr movie, like i adjust brightness and noise reduction pr laserdisc.

Not least something that average Joe can actually plug together and play without a 7 year long AV education.

I totally get that you pref Rec709 and 1080P they're both great and I do watch a LOT of blurays. It's also an area which we've pretty much nailed down over the last 10 years and does look great.

There's also the strive to do better, along with sales stuff. The market dictates and the push is certainly HDR, probably over 4K even as to be fair in the TV market it's pretty hard to see a difference with 4K on the average consumer TV due to the size and that most people don't sit with their nose up against the TV

HDR however broadens the whole range, it widens the dark range as much as it does the brights, though people talk about the pop more. This does depends on how much light you have to play with as tone mapping does compress things back down again and I can certainly understand the, Well whats the point factor.

There's also the argument of realism vs art and directorial intent. Lots of films are far from realistic. The Matrix immediately springs to mind, given the massive colour casts, particularly the green shift, which is done as to delineate the Matrix from the real world!

I also guess we've got to consider that the AV enthusiast is a teeny tiny sub set of the world we inhabit. The greatest example i can think of is the battle between SACD vs DVD-A where MP3 won out.
We're rapidly moving to a streaming world with the choice of content being king, there's still a push for newer, better and brighter, with 4K, HDR and now DV pushing sales and consumers are still there, which is a good thing, but realistically the AV Enthusiast market is niche and we get what we are fed and try and make the best of it!
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I totally get that you pref Rec709 and 1080P they're both great and I do watch a LOT of blurays. It's also an area which we've pretty much nailed down over the last 10 years and does look great.

There's also the strive to do better, along with sales stuff. The market dictates and the push is certainly HDR, probably over 4K even as to be fair in the TV market it's pretty hard to see a difference with 4K on the average consumer TV due to the size and that most people don't sit with their nose up against the TV

HDR however broadens the whole range, it widens the dark range as much as it does the brights, though people talk about the pop more. This does depends on how much light you have to play with as tone mapping does compress things back down again and I can certainly understand the, Well whats the point factor.

There's also the argument of realism vs art and directorial intent. Lots of films are far from realistic. The Matrix immediately springs to mind, given the massive colour casts, particularly the green shift, which is done as to delineate the Matrix from the real world!

I also guess we've got to consider that the AV enthusiast is a teeny tiny sub set of the world we inhabit. The greatest example i can think of is the battle between SACD vs DVD-A where MP3 won out.
We're rapidly moving to a streaming world with the choice of content being king, there's still a push for newer, better and brighter, with 4K, HDR and now DV pushing sales and consumers are still there, which is a good thing, but realistically the AV Enthusiast market is niche and we get what we are fed and try and make the best of it!
Would it not be ideal if there was only 1 HDR format, if it was maybe 1000 nit max, and average Joe could just buy a player and tv and connect it and it would work, without having to worry what slider to set where and ohh no that player dont suport tha HDR format, and the TV dont support another HDR format.

They are pushing us around like a bunch of sheep, and we are to stupid to break out, and say no, finish the sh*t before you sell it to us.

Many years ago when they started talking about 4K i got the idea they would make the SDR WCG optional, just like subtitles and language, instead we got one format for everybody to mess around with and nobody knowing 100% how.

And base the format on the average human static dynamic visual capabilities, today our eyes are opening and closing down like a broke auto iris system.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^Completely agreed that if HDR was standardised to a set limit or at least offer two versions on one disc, one designed for the limitations of projectors and another for TV/OLED a bit like you get 2D and 3D on one bluray.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
^Completely agreed that if HDR was standardised to a set limit or at least offer two versions on one disc, one designed for the limitations of projectors and another for TV/OLED a bit like you get 2D and 3D on one bluray.
Yes that way the tone mapping would be a studio grading, not a player or display processing, making hardware less complex, but thats not how it is and likely never will be.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Epson TW9400 has also become easier to calibrate nice. Then from before on the TW9300 and down. Before I would say a DE 1,8 was best in the greyscale. Calman has a great autocal function for TW94000. Uses base IRE points 0,17,32,46,60,75,86.8 and 100% Ire. It does this very well. I still prefer to do this manually. But the result gets more than good. You are now under DE1. Gamma and color match also great.
Epson for calman.png
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
^Completely agreed that if HDR was standardised to a set limit or at least offer two versions on one disc, one designed for the limitations of projectors and another for TV/OLED a bit like you get 2D and 3D on one bluray.
HDR is a mess. I think we've all got to come to terms with it sadly lol as thats where the juicy atmos mixes are!
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Would it not be ideal if there was only 1 HDR format, if it was maybe 1000 nit max, and average Joe could just buy a player and tv and connect it and it would work, without having to worry what slider to set where and ohh no that player dont suport tha HDR format, and the TV dont support another HDR format.

They are pushing us around like a bunch of sheep, and we are to stupid to break out, and say no, finish the sh*t before you sell it to us.

Many years ago when they started talking about 4K i got the idea they would make the SDR WCG optional, just like subtitles and language, instead we got one format for everybody to mess around with and nobody knowing 100% how.

And base the format on the average human static dynamic visual capabilities, today our eyes are opening and closing down like a broke auto iris system.


TBH I am shocked they don't include a 4K BT2020 SDR version on discs which use the extended colour gamut but don't engage HDR. can't help but feel its a mistake from them as surely more people would buy the 4K disc rather than the 1080p.. but I guess they prefer 1080p users buy the 1080p disc then when they buy shiny new TV, 'upgrade' same film to 4K.
 

Alaric

Well-known Member
Yup. Would be totally great, however people are fighting for control and royalties and as ever the fans get screwed. HDR is also most a beta thing with users being the guinea pigs. The kit is being fudged (see sony and DV) because it was released too soon, but ideally companies want you to buy kit multiple times over and it fits in with product cycles. Money always wins out and we're often chasing the latest and greatest things as we've been conditioned to do in the consumerist cycle.

As for discs, it would be great IF they even carried on producing them, but they are alas being phased out for streaming, where we get pushed 4K, HDR etc and yet the bit rates are compressed and the quality is a somewhat hit and miss, but then we're sold on the shiny mass catalog of choice as per the MP3 audio thing previously!
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member

Alaric

Well-known Member
Epson TW9400 has also become easier to calibrate nice. Then from before on the TW9300 and down. Before I would say a DE 1,8 was best in the greyscale. Calman has a great autocal function for TW94000. Uses base IRE points 0,17,32,46,60,75,86.8 and 100% Ire. It does this very well. I still prefer to do this manually. But the result gets more than good. You are now under DE1. Gamma and color match also great.
View attachment 1500194

Calman for Epson???

Is that a new, reasonably priced thing or am i confused?
 

Diddern

Active Member

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Its still
Oh I know what Calman is, but they made it SILLY priced a few years back but then brought out some cheap versions which were limited to mainly certain TV products.

IF they did a reasonably price version for Epson then i'd be interested in having a play, which i though this was referring to and i got excited!
Its still a stupid price, and as i see it, it wont do anything for the epson that you cant do manually using a free software like HCFR.
 

Alaric

Well-known Member
Its still

Its still a stupid price, and as i see it, it wont do anything for the epson that you cant do manually using a free software like HCFR.
I'm a fan of HCFR actually. Been using it for years and it is very capable once you get your head around it. DisplayCal is great for 3D LUT work too.

I just built a PGenerator PI based pattern generator to have a play with, you did get good results off the inbuilt one, using my Spectracal C6 (I1 display clone) that's cross calibrated off an I1 Pro.
 

Diddern

Active Member
Calman is for the persons that calibrate professionally. Then do it for a living or calibrate a lot, or else it's not worth it. "Personal opinion... " Just installed the 2021 last upgrade.
But because of the Covid, it's slow at least for me now. hehe
Normally 2-3 times a week, now : "do we need to talk about it?" hehe

You pay 700USD each year and the program costs $2,995.00 alone.
So HCFR does the job for shore, but I personally prefer Calman overall :)
 
Last edited:

alebonau

Well-known Member
There's also the strive to do better, along with sales stuff. The market dictates and the push is certainly HDR, probably over 4K even as to be fair in the TV market it's pretty hard to see a difference with 4K on the average consumer TV due to the size and that most people don't sit with their nose up against the TV
i understand many folk are sitting and watching with a TV and no hope resolving ben 2k in many cases let alone fully resolving 4k... this is definitely far easier a task with projectors though with larger screens easily possible to appreciate resolutions beyond 2k and not needing nose to the screen D:

but there are elements of 4k uhd eg WCG and HDR do give benefit no matter what distance you sit from the screen and these do provide benefit with projectors too to take beyond blu-ray let alone lasers disc :D ... that I can appreciate some are happy with as the Pièce de résistance :p

There's also the argument of realism vs art and directorial intent. Lots of films are far from realistic. The Matrix immediately springs to mind, given the massive colour casts, particularly the green shift, which is done as to delineate the Matrix from the real world!
Agree there is certainly directors intent and also what new formats bring in capability ... we are long ways still of a delivery means to full appreciate what human eye or nature is capable off ...but if him makers and a format provides capability beyond what those prior ...then why not make best of it...

and directors and film makers are taking advantage of what 4k uhd had to offer, eg see below re the revenant on 4k uhd ... released 5 years ago ! so hardly some new trend or something :)


"The Revenant was captured digitally by director Alejandro Iñárritu and cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki (a.k.a. Chivo) in ARRI Raw (6K) and Redcode RAW (6K) formats using ARRI Alexa 65 (with Hasselblad Prime lenses) and Red Epic Dragon cameras. The film was finished to a 4K Digital Intermediate in the 2.39:1 aspect ratio, and that DI was used to produce Fox’s 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray presentation. It’s worth noting that the color grading for Ultra HD was done separately from the regular Blu-ray. Though both were supervised and approved by Chivo and Iñárritu, different choices were made – particularly once they saw what HDR was capable of. So while the Blu-ray color timing has a somewhat cool and stylized look, the Ultra HD offers a much more naturalistic presentation. Having grown up on this part of the country, I can attest that the Ultra HD image does indeed accurately capture the dramatic look and feel of this landscape. The sheer impact of the imagery in The Revenant is extraordinary – it really has to be experienced in order to fully appreciate what that means. The landscape itself is a character in this film, alive with portent and potential in virtually every scene. The Ultra HD presentation captures the theatrical experience perfectly. There’s a little bit of color banding visible, resulting from the conversion of 16-bit color (the native color space of Redcode RAW) to 10-bit for this disc, but it’s never distracting. This image is so good, there are times while watching it that you just have to stop and marvel at what you’re seeing – the refined detail, the vast and intricate color palette, the deep dark forest shadows, the glassy-glare of sunlight reflecting off a flowing stream or ice. And the atmospherics! Fog, mist, cloud, smoke, sunlight illuminating these things and filtering through them. There’s a brief scene, at about 56:25, in which a wave of dark clouds spills down over the top of a mountain toward the camera, backlit by the cold winter sun, and it’s as if the hand of God is reaching down. The Revenant is, without doubt, one of the most beautiful looking films I have ever seen, and I’ve never seen such imagery more stunningly rendered in my home theater before."

^Completely agreed that if HDR was standardised to a set limit or at least offer two versions on one disc, one designed for the limitations of projectors and another for TV/OLED a bit like you get 2D and 3D on one bluray.

hi Luminated, really not seeing this as an issue. as a note OLED and LCD themselves have quite a difference in capability for HDR, ie old is quite peak luminance limited in nits vs LCD, however benefits 4k uhd an be enjoyed by both... due to dynamic tone mapping. the same goes with projectors its dynamic tone mapping that makes possible to enjoy and have been for some time now and before that even with static tone mapping. as long as can see what nits are mastered at ... you can tone map to suit. and with the jvc its been set forget for a while now. so i have not had to make one adjustment disc to disc or scene to scene since nov 2019 when the first DTM update came the way of JVC.

and if folks create howls of protest of how tone mapping is the devils work or something :D we have to keep in mind without tone mapping we would not have be able enjoy anything on a screen so far in our lives...

as per the article below
"Nature has a lot of nits. The noonday sun measures around 1,600,000,000 nits and the night sky around 0.001 nits"
think about just how huge that dynamic range is we have no displays and likely never will that will convey that sort of dynamic range...yet we can enjoy movies made any time of the day... how ? its tone mapping... we have had tone mapping as far as things go and continue to do and there is no reason to appreciate the greater peak luminance capability of new formats of delivery let alone greater capability with displays eg the HDR capability over SDR we have even with projectors... why should we not take advantage of this :)

but it also isnt just nits... i believe the power of 4k uhd is 3 fold. it is yes a genuine higher resolution source ... yes we can now shoot now with movies like the revenant in 6k and deliver it in 4k via 4k uhd... but we also have HDR and greater peak luminance and combine that with wider colour gamut and we have definite and real gains to take advantage off !
 

Paul Smith

Well-known Member
Haven't read all of this thread so sorry if it's already been mentioned, but.....
Seeing as this is a thread about JVC vs Epson for 3D can someone tell me if the more recent JVC models have increased the 3D refresh rate? To combat the distracting flicker?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
i understand many folk are sitting and watching with a TV and no hope resolving ben 2k in many cases let alone fully resolving 4k... this is definitely far easier a task with projectors though with larger screens easily possible to appreciate resolutions beyond 2k and not needing nose to the screen D:

but there are elements of 4k uhd eg WCG and HDR do give benefit no matter what distance you sit from the screen and these do provide benefit with projectors too to take beyond blu-ray let alone lasers disc :D ... that I can appreciate some are happy with as the Pièce de résistance :p


Agree there is certainly directors intent and also what new formats bring in capability ... we are long ways still of a delivery means to full appreciate what human eye or nature is capable off ...but if him makers and a format provides capability beyond what those prior ...then why not make best of it...

and directors and film makers are taking advantage of what 4k uhd had to offer, eg see below re the revenant on 4k uhd ... released 5 years ago ! so hardly some new trend or something :)


"The Revenant was captured digitally by director Alejandro Iñárritu and cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki (a.k.a. Chivo) in ARRI Raw (6K) and Redcode RAW (6K) formats using ARRI Alexa 65 (with Hasselblad Prime lenses) and Red Epic Dragon cameras. The film was finished to a 4K Digital Intermediate in the 2.39:1 aspect ratio, and that DI was used to produce Fox’s 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray presentation. It’s worth noting that the color grading for Ultra HD was done separately from the regular Blu-ray. Though both were supervised and approved by Chivo and Iñárritu, different choices were made – particularly once they saw what HDR was capable of. So while the Blu-ray color timing has a somewhat cool and stylized look, the Ultra HD offers a much more naturalistic presentation. Having grown up on this part of the country, I can attest that the Ultra HD image does indeed accurately capture the dramatic look and feel of this landscape. The sheer impact of the imagery in The Revenant is extraordinary – it really has to be experienced in order to fully appreciate what that means. The landscape itself is a character in this film, alive with portent and potential in virtually every scene. The Ultra HD presentation captures the theatrical experience perfectly. There’s a little bit of color banding visible, resulting from the conversion of 16-bit color (the native color space of Redcode RAW) to 10-bit for this disc, but it’s never distracting. This image is so good, there are times while watching it that you just have to stop and marvel at what you’re seeing – the refined detail, the vast and intricate color palette, the deep dark forest shadows, the glassy-glare of sunlight reflecting off a flowing stream or ice. And the atmospherics! Fog, mist, cloud, smoke, sunlight illuminating these things and filtering through them. There’s a brief scene, at about 56:25, in which a wave of dark clouds spills down over the top of a mountain toward the camera, backlit by the cold winter sun, and it’s as if the hand of God is reaching down. The Revenant is, without doubt, one of the most beautiful looking films I have ever seen, and I’ve never seen such imagery more stunningly rendered in my home theater before."



hi Luminated, really not seeing this as an issue. as a note OLED and LCD themselves have quite a difference in capability for HDR, ie old is quite peak luminance limited in nits vs LCD, however benefits 4k uhd an be enjoyed by both... due to dynamic tone mapping. the same goes with projectors its dynamic tone mapping that makes possible to enjoy and have been for some time now and before that even with static tone mapping. as long as can see what nits are mastered at ... you can tone map to suit. and with the jvc its been set forget for a while now. so i have not had to make one adjustment disc to disc or scene to scene since nov 2019 when the first DTM update came the way of JVC.

and if folks create howls of protest of how tone mapping is the devils work or something :D we have to keep in mind without tone mapping we would not have be able enjoy anything on a screen so far in our lives...

as per the article below
"Nature has a lot of nits. The noonday sun measures around 1,600,000,000 nits and the night sky around 0.001 nits"
think about just how huge that dynamic range is we have no displays and likely never will that will convey that sort of dynamic range...yet we can enjoy movies made any time of the day... how ? its tone mapping... we have had tone mapping as far as things go and continue to do and there is no reason to appreciate the greater peak luminance capability of new formats of delivery let alone greater capability with displays eg the HDR capability over SDR we have even with projectors... why should we not take advantage of this :)

but it also isnt just nits... i believe the power of 4k uhd is 3 fold. it is yes a genuine higher resolution source ... yes we can now shoot now with movies like the revenant in 6k and deliver it in 4k via 4k uhd... but we also have HDR and greater peak luminance and combine that with wider colour gamut and we have definite and real gains to take advantage off !


Great point on OLED and LCD different re: HDR too.


HDR is basically, sadly in a weird in place, in not having a easily available consumer reference point.

In reality, if you want reference HDR, you need an insane HDR mastering monitor.
If you want reference SDR, you can calibrate and get it.

To an extend HDR is just as good as your display AS LONG as it has dynamic tone mapping and what the DTM is like.



e.g. LG OLED DTM is VERY aggressive and transforms some content to not look right.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
SDR is generally always more dynamic on projectors than HDR, due to the fact that most people run projectors brighter in HDR mode, anyway it will always be SDR as the options is SDR source or HDR source converted to a SDR display, even the best JVC projectors is SDR, or medium dynamic range projectors, a reference CRT projector is a significantly more dynamic projector type, its just not suited for much more than 100"

Question, what would you chose.

Electrohome Marquee 9500, 1080P 72hz on a 100" studiotek 130, max 18fl and 400000:1 on off contrast.

Epson TW9400 1080P same screen around 65fl max and a 3500:1 on off contrast.

Tonemapping done in Mad VR.

Forget about price size and setup, just pure image performance question.

And tell me why you chose what.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
SDR is generally always more dynamic on projectors than HDR, due to the fact that most people run projectors brighter in HDR mode, anyway it will always be SDR as the options is SDR source or HDR source converted to a SDR display, even the best JVC projectors is SDR, or medium dynamic range projectors, a reference CRT projector is a significantly more dynamic projector type, its just not suited for much more than 100"

Question, what would you chose.

Electrohome Marquee 9500, 1080P 72hz on a 100" studiotek 130, max 18fl and 400000:1 on off contrast.

Epson TW9400 1080P same screen around 65fl max and a 3500:1 on off contrast.

Tonemapping done in Mad VR.

Forget about price size and setup, just pure image performance question.

And tell me why you chose what.
Image performance excluding size... OLeD lol
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
It’s immaterial what is the ideal screen size for projectors people generally want the biggest screen that will fit in their space.
 

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