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36pw9607

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Andy ARB, Jul 3, 2002.

  1. Andy ARB

    Andy ARB
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    Hi

    Let me begin by saying that I'm relatively new to all this new TV technology but with the aid of about 20 home cinema type magazines I believe: (A) I know more than I did and (B) I'm more confused than I ever was ;))

    However, after reading reviews of the 36PW9607 in magazines and reading comments posted here by others I decided to buy one and have now had it approx. three weeks.

    All in all my impressions are mixed. The picture can look really fantastic and I've found myself watching TV just to see how nice the picture looks but thats only in fairly static scenes. When movement is involved it can be a different story.

    Certainly I was expecting to see some 100Hz 'artefacts' or whatnots, but mainly on fast moving objects and then only occasionally.

    However, I seem to be getting these 'artefacts' (best described as a heat haze effect around the moving object, which is quite large and most noticable against a light background ) alot more often than I expected ( Ps - There may well be other 'artefacts' etc. but its only the heat haze one that really spoils the viewing).

    I've yet to see a complete program or film either through Sky digital (BBC1 through to sky premier widescreen) or off DVD that does not contain these artefacts.

    A typical example would be in Mission Impossible II (I think its II anyway - screened recently on SKY premier widescreen) when he climbs to the top of the rock stack and then

    A. Walks into the middle of the rock stack and
    B. The camera pans around him

    During that particular scene the heat haze is really noticable and no matter what brightness, sharpness, DNR on or off etc. when pixelplus is turned on (I've got sky plus and so I've played the recording about 30 times ;) ) the heat haze effect is always present and only really diminishes to, I suppose, an acceptable level when pixelplus is turned off and 100Hz digital scan is used instead.

    Never mind I thought, maybe pixelplus only comes into its own with DVDs, so borrowing a friends toshiba SD 110e ?? or something (its supposed to have quite a good picture rating anyway) I played a few DVDs.

    I can't remember specific instances but I wouldnt be surprised if I see the heat haze effect at least 20 times in a film and sometimes when you would least expect it. For instance when an actor merely walks across an office or stands up after bending down to speak to someone in a car etc. (E.G. movement but not exactly fast).

    Never mind I thought. I wont bother with pixel plus, I'll just use vanilla 100hz digital scan but even that can be iffy especially when watching BBC etc via Sky ;(

    So to sum it all up I'm trying my best to like this telly but so far, with the aid of various 'what have you bought this rubbish for' type comments from the wife ;) I havent managed to convince myself.

    Based on my limited knowledge, I can appreciate that this type of technology isnt 100% all the time and that to get the benefits of a 36 inch screen etc. etc. I've got to put up with occasional glitches so to speak and I'm prepared to be quite forgiving but these artefacts seem more like the rule than the exception.

    Anyway, after gibbering on Id like some advice from you guys.

    Do you think it sounds like I've got a duff TV (I see on here examples where people have gone through 3 or 4 sets before finding one they like) or do you think Im expecting too much even though it cost 2K and seems to be getting 4.5 or 5 out of five from the mags.

    Maybe Im not using the correct settings? although I must confess I dont like mucking about with them too much (me being someone who had a dolby sourround sound system on the pseudo setting for two years even though sky digital was giving me proper surround sound ;) ). Can anybody suggest some settings to use?

    Or maybe I haven't seen pixelplus in its best light? Maybe it needs a good DVD film using a higher quality DVD player perhaps?? Maybe someone with this TV and having experience of other 100hz models could tell me the title of a DVD film they have watched where these artefacts were only a minor problem or non existant. Then I could watch the same film and 'compare' my TV with yours?

    Do you think Id be justified in asking for an engineer to call round perhaps? I bought the set from john Lewis by the way.

    In general, virtually 100% of my viewing is through Sky digital. Could it be that say, low channel transmission bandwith (says me trying to sound like I know what Im on about) combined with 100hz processig and then magnifying it all onto a 36 inch screen is a recipe for disaster??

    Many thanks in advance.

    PS Sorry If I've gone on a bit ;) but as it stands its the telly or the wife but with the telly edging it as i know how to turn that on ;)

    Andy
     
  2. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Andy ARB,
    Contact John Lewis, they will send an engineer to check your television, and if necessary replace it to your satisfaction.:)
     
  3. Zacabeb

    Zacabeb
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    Digital artifacts already present in the video but not visible to the naked eye can lower the efficiency of the motion compensation. So can the noise in analog off-air sources.

    Natural Motion is based on recursive block matching, which means that when it tracks motion, it saves processing power by limiting the distance and direction to search for a match. It basically omits unlikely directions and distances of motion, given previous motion vectors it has tracked. Sometimes this doesn't work and the image breaks up or gets the haze effect. The system can keep track of only so many different directions of motion at the same time.

    Fast pans are too much to handle because the image elements travel across the screen farther with each frame than the motion estimation can search. The blurring caused by the motion also makes it harder to match the moving parts of the image. Ultimately, if there is too much motion that can not be properly tracked, the system turns off the motion compensation and the image starts jerking.

    This can also happen if the motion estimation for some reason can not tell whether the image is video (50 motion updates per second) or film (25 motion updates per second). This can happen in cuts or when film and video are poorly combined, such as music videos which are shot on film but where the station overlays scrolling text with full video motion. Then the motion estimation becomes less efficient.

    I do not think you have a faulty set; Natural Motion is far from perfect.
     
  4. highlanders

    highlanders
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    Would it not be possible to swap the set to another make say a tosh or a panny if you don't like it that much?

    James
     
  5. Nyquil Driver

    Nyquil Driver
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    As Zacabeb says, your set probably isn't faulty and the haze/halo effects are part of the package (unfortunately). I have to say that I don't experience them anywhere near as often as you seem to though and 20 times per film would definitely be too much to live with!. I don't have mine connected to Sky Digital so I can't really comment on that. I have an analogue cable box and a (strong) regular aerial connected to it instead and the artifacts are never intrusive. Other site members have pointed out that certain digital transmissions are worse than others artifact-wise (due to the varying bit-rates) so I don't think you can lay the blame on the TV lock, stock and barrel.

    As I say, analogue TV looks great with P+ so the 'unseen' digital artifacts Zacabeb mentioned must be a factor. My gamecube (connected via RGB) is spectacularly impressive and the haze/halo effect is practically absent. I should probably point out that my set is actually the 28" version (28PW9617), so the smaller screen probably reduces the impact of the problem. I do know exactly what you mean though as I've found that DVD viewing is sometimes spoilt by Natural Motion.

    When I first got the set I was totally amazed by DVD playback and all the clips I watched were breathtakingly detailed and smooth. The very first disc I watched all the way through was the Superbit Bram Stoker's Dracula which amazed me further still (as the picture was completely flawless throughout). Since then though I have become very aware of the issue you're talking about and many of the DVD's I've rented recently have highlighted the shortcomings of P+ a bit more. Fast action combined with a camera pan equals halos basically... Sometimes fast action will be fine if the viewpoint doesn't change and sometimes slow movements will produce artifacts if the background is complicated/bright, but motion is obviously the catalyst. You can't accurately predict which scenes will be okay and which will be bad though, as I've seen some very fast scenes displayed halo-free.

    One thing I can confirm though- altering your settings won't totally remove the halo's, so there's little point adjusting a picture you're happy with in a futile attempt to shake-off artifacts. I haven't had chance to watch any other Superbit titles yet, but it's possible that the higher bit-rate of those discs reduce artifacts to imperceptible levels. It's also possible that the few 'bad apple' discs I watched recently had low bit-rates and that's why they were below-par... It probably sounds like I'm making excuses for Philips, but there must be some reason why certain sources/software perform significantly worse than others...

    Despite all this, I still wouldn't want to swap mine for any other CRT available because generally speaking the image is superb. If loving my halo-ridden set is wrong, then I don't want to be right!...
     
  6. Andy ARB

    Andy ARB
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    Thanks for the replies

    I've had the Tv install guy around from the shop. He could see the halo effect and is going to contact philips to see what they have to say.

    In the meantime I've been looking at other 36 inch TVs to see what they are like. Even taking into consideration this heat haze type effect they dont seem to come close to the philips for picture quality and at the end of the day I can always turn pixel plus off BUT I dont !!! ;)

    Maybe I'll just have to learn to love it just like Nyquil driver ;)

    thanks again for the replies
     
  7. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Firstly,
    Yes, have an engineer call to optimise settings.
    Secondly,
    Sky, low bandwidth and 36" can be disappointing.
    Thirdly,
    Keep the tv and the wife, I'm sure you will achieve satisfaction turning them both on.
     

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