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32ZP18Q showing football

Discussion in 'TVs' started by piquet, Apr 29, 2002.

  1. piquet

    piquet
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    Well, thanks to your responses I have managed to set up my 6 day old Tosh almost to my satisfaction. However, my main reason for buying it was to watch football, and right now my feeling is that the performance is quite erratic.

    On BBC1 via Sky digibox, it is pretty good - no complaints.
    On Sky Sports (digibox setup up RGB output, widescreen) the close-ups are fine except in "natural" mode players faces are quite patchy, with odd digital artifacts. The long-range normal shots are the most disappointing. The lines on the pitch appear quite jagged, the ball is not round, and when someone takes a shot the ball movement is jerky at first, then gets smoother as the movement continues. This happens in both natural and 100Hz modes.

    Does anyone else get this ? Are there any fixes ? Are other TVs any better ?

    Thanks again,

    Phil
     
  2. piquet

    piquet
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    Well, I spoke with a guy from Toshiba Customer Services regarding the footie problem.

    His response was that it was a 100Hz problem that all manufacturers were struggling with. He said that it was frustrating that the broadcasters weren't keeping up with the TV makers' technology and outputting an appropriate signal.

    Do you buy this ? Are we to suppose that maybe sometime in the future we will get a better picture on fast action sports than we do today ?
     
  3. Doubledoom

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    It is mainly the fault of the broadcasters. A decent quality output will look fine on a 100hz set. The more compression used, the more obvious the faults will be as the 100hz struggles with the movement and the compression artefacts.

    Ways to improve it on the Tosh:

    1 - keep the brightness and contrast as low as you can.
    2 - reduce the sharpness right down (as it should be for digital sources)
    3 - turn of DNR (as it should be for digital sources)
    4 - use 100hz instead of natural. (this also fixes the horizontal scrolling credits dot crawl - however, 100hz looks worse with game machines).
     
  4. Kevo

    Kevo
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    Strange, I have watched several DVDs that show sport/football matches and even faster moving subject matter and are 'pixel perfect'.

    Must be the broadcasters, surely.

    No probs with my 100Hz, could never go back to 50Hz and I used to be one of those 'anti-100Hz, 50Hz looks more natural' type, seen the light now though!
     
  5. Doubledoom

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    Nothing strange with that. Most dvds don't have anywhere near the compression used with broadcasting in the uk.
     
  6. carsten_f

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    Hi,

    DVD playback, even of fast-moving action, does not usually suffer from 100 Hz playback problems. This is because images on the DVD are present in full frame 25 fps (movies are usually filmed with 24 fps - on DVDs, playback is 1/24 th faster than at the movie theatre). Full frame 25 fps is then converted to 2 half-frames for 50 Hz PAL. The 100 Hz-TV displays every half-frame twice - voila, no problem.

    Live football matches are usually filmed with PAL video cameras using 50 fps with two half frames. Unfortunately, here the two half frames contain different information since the first half frame contains every even line, the second one every odd line (counting the horizontal lines from top to bottom). If a 100 Hz-TV simply doubles every half frame, e.g. AABB, problems occur. ABAB is not really correct either. Modern 100 Hz-TVs try to correct this problem either through interpolation (best system apparently Philips Digital Natural Motion) at the cost of slight pixel artefacts or by using a technology like Sony's DRC - with mixed results. Sony recommends switching to DRC 50 Hz for sports transmissions.

    Regards,
    Carsten.
     
  7. Kevo

    Kevo
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    Vert intersesting first post carsten_f.

    However, can you explain why tonight's live match on Sky Sports (Man U v Arsenal) was also pixel perfect, no artefacts whatsoever, even on close-ups and slo-mo replays.
    One of the best pics I have seen for a footy match.

    btw, the result was 'perfect' too :)
     
  8. carsten_f

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    Hi

    hmm - maybe the Toshiba 100 Hz motion processing works better if you have a good quality source signal?

    Regards
    Carsten
     
  9. carsten_f

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    Hi Kevo

    Just noticed you have a Toshiba 100 Hz rear projection TV.

    What 100 Hz scan options / DNR ("Natural" or 100 Hz, DNR on/off) for watching football?

    I'm currently thinking about buying a rear projection tv.
    How satisfied are you? I'll probably either get a Toshiba 43 PH 14 P/Q or a Sony KP 48 PS 2. The price of the Toshiba is more attractive.

    My impression from looking at them in the stores were

    Sony:
    Pro: overall, picture looked more natural, could no see separate horizontal scan lines even from close distance, as I could with the Toshibas. Perhaps the resolution of the Sony is better, maybe it's the screen material.

    Contra: 100 Hz motion processing appears to be worse than the Toshiba motion processing (when watching a stock quotes ticker) - but can be switched to DRC 50 Hz for watching football

    Toshiba:
    Pro: better 100 Hz motion processing and absolutely no reflection of the screen (black stripe matrix - this could unfortunately also be the explanation for the horizontal lines that I saw?)

    Contra: could see separate horizontal scan lines from distances below 10 ft

    Any advice on whether to get a Sony or a Toshiba rear projection TV would be appreciated!

    Regards
    Carsten.
     
  10. Squirrel God

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    From my understanding of 100Hz technologies, it's just the extra processing that causes the problems. Simply doubling every half frame is not a problem. It's equivalent to increased scan/refresh rates in computer monitors.

    Here's an explanation from HCC online:

    "What is 100Hz?
    100Hz processing, disregarding any extra processing that normally comes with it for now, basically stores each interlaced frame in memory and displays it again, in the gap between this frame originally showing, and the next interlaced frame.

    So the number of frames per second is doubled from the normal 50Hz to 100Hz and the sometimes annoying flicker associated with TV screens is eliminated.

    Extra digital processing that is normally included in sets with 100Hz processing includes noise reduction (eliminating colour and / or brightness 'dots' from the image, or background noise as we see it), eliminating flicker on thin horizontal lines and various digital processing modes intended to 'enhance' the picture.

    Early 100Hz sets suffered from digital artifacts, seen as annoying interference, cause by over-active digital processing algorithms. Why this 'processing' is deemed 'necessary' is questionable - the basic method requires the image to be digitised, stored, and inserted between the video signal frames, no processing need be involved."
     
  11. Kevo

    Kevo
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    What 100 Hz scan options / DNR ("Natural" or 100 Hz, DNR on/off) for watching football?


    There is 100Hz/Natural Scan
    100Hz processing is excellent, even on sports progs, no trailing effects like on osome 100Hz TVs.
    'Natural scan', still 100Hz and gives a more stable picture for static material like menus/text etc.
    I tend to use 100Hz more.

    There is a DNR option but I never use it. It makes the pic look too 'processed'.


    I'm currently thinking about buying a rear projection tv.
    How satisfied are you? I'll probably either get a Toshiba 43 PH 14 P/Q or a Sony KP 48 PS 2. The price of the Toshiba is more attractive.

    My impression from looking at them in the stores were

    Sony:
    Pro: overall, picture looked more natural, could no see separate horizontal scan lines even from close distance, as I could with the Toshibas. Perhaps the resolution of the Sony is better, maybe it's the screen material.

    Contra: 100 Hz motion processing appears to be worse than the Toshiba motion processing (when watching a stock quotes ticker) - but can be switched to DRC 50 Hz for watching football

    Toshiba:
    Pro: better 100 Hz motion processing and absolutely no reflection of the screen (black stripe matrix - this could unfortunately also be the explanation for the horizontal lines that I saw?)

    Contra: could see separate horizontal scan lines from distances below 10 ft

    Any advice on whether to get a Sony or a Toshiba rear projection TV would be appreciated!
    [/QUOTE]

    I've never heard of the Toshiba 43 PH 14, is that a WS model?

    The matt screen does make a difference, it gives it a 'cinematic' look.

    No problems watching at 10ft or less and even at an angle.

    Looks just as good in daylight too.

    Highly recommend the Tosh, don't know much about the Sony. Other will say different.

    BTW, don't go off what you see in the shops, they are rarely set up correctly, the pic is a LOT better once you get it set up at home on RGB/Component with good quality SCART leads.

    Also have a look at the Tosh 42WH1b.

    Good Luck
     
  12. carsten_f

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    Thanks for your advice, Kevo!

    The 43 PH 14 is a 4:3 model. I don't watch that many DVDs and in 16:9 mode the size of the picture is still relatively large (40").
     
  13. Squirrel God

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    Don't watch many DVDs? :confused:

    You must convert :devil: hehe :D
     

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