31% UKIP flat tax rate.

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Anybody know if this still stands?

Just did the maths, I will be significantly better off ,but it totally screws people on 31k pa or less and gives the VERY rich insane pay rises.

Seems strange, thought they would be actively trying to recruit that demographic, they play the party of the people card pretty hard.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Does it matter one way or another? They are currently on trajectory to get zero MPs at the General Election which means what they offer is totally irrelevant.
 

sidicks

Banned
Does it matter one way or another? They are currently on trajectory to get zero MPs at the General Election which means what they offer is totally irrelevant.

Given that their popularity is increasing (significantly), how you can claim that their 'trajectory' is for zero MPs is known only to you...
:facepalm:
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Does it matter one way or another? They are currently on trajectory to get zero MPs at the General Election which means what they offer is totally irrelevant.

This is the politics and finance section, it's s discussion about the financial elements of a political parties manifesto.

You seem to be suggesting no discussion on any topics pertaining to UKIP should be entertained because they can't win this time around?

I think a party getting this much airtime needs discussion on their policies.

This is a strange policy that will leave many people very out of pocket.

That seems like something UKIP voters and fans should be aware off.

Education on a party of your choosing, irrelevant if their ability to win, seems like it does indeed matter - yes.
 
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Sonic67

Banned
Rasczak - interesting prediction. What's Saturday's lottery numbers?

General election 2015: Will this be Ukip's year? - Telegraph

More than half of people who vote Ukip in this month's European elections are likely to support them again at the General Election, increasing the likelihood that the party will have its first MP, a study has found.

Researchers found that 57.6 per cent of people who vote for Ukip in the elections for the European Parliament intend to stay loyal to the party at the General Election in May next year.

The level of sustained support for Nigel Farage's party appears to contradict claims by senior Conservatives, who have repeatedly suggested that any success that Ukip enjoys will be because they are attracting protest votes.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
Anybody know if this still stands?

Just did the maths, I will be significantly better off ,but it totally screws people on 31k pa or less and gives the VERY rich insane pay rises.

Seems strange, thought they would be actively trying to recruit that demographic, they play the party of the people card pretty hard.
utterly absurd
 

sidicks

Banned
Anybody know if this still stands?

Just did the maths, I will be significantly better off ,but it totally screws people on 31k pa or less and gives the VERY rich insane pay rises.

1) the tax rate is only one aspect of total tax
2) your interpretation of 'screws people' is interesting - what you actually mean is these people would be subsidised less..
3) the 'very rich' have a lot of wealth but not necessarily high incomes, so would not gain from the proposals
4) the 'very rich' (in income terms) already hugely subsidise the rest of the population, so it is not necessarily unfair that they should pay less tax
5) if many of the posts on this forum are to be believed, most of the 'very rich' don't actually pay tax anyway - they 'squirrel' their money away offshore...
6) a more reasonable top rate of tax would encourage less avoidance and could actually increase total tax revenue

Etc

Seems strange, thought they would be actively trying to recruit that demographic, they play the party of the people card pretty hard.

Any economically literate party needs to understand what can be afforded (in spending terms) and where they can realistically obtain their revenue from.

Pretending that people can have all the public services etc that they demand and that 'someone else' will always pay for them isn't an option for a credible economic policy.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
That's some verbal gymnastics. , you get a silver.

"These people", (everybody earning less than 31 k ) will be subsidised less, not taxed more.

-:)

Funny stuff

Keep drinking the Kool aid.

Bottom line, "these people", who may vote for UKIP should be made aware of the nightmare that waits their take home salaries.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
So glad they added the ignore user function.

Life's too short for absurd levels of cognitive dissonance found on AVF
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
That's some verbal gymnastics. , you get a silver.

"These people", (everybody earning less than 31 k ) will be subsidised less, not taxed more.

-:)

Funny stuff

Keep drinking the Kool aid.

Bottom line, "these people", who may vote for UKIP should be made aware of the nightmare that waits their take home salaries.

Bearing in mind that a huge proportion (around 2/3 I believe - may have been 3/4) get more back in services / benefits than they pay in tax. So the wealthy do 'subsidise' the poor.

Anyway, you miss the point of flat tax and how most people believe it should be set up to include a large tax free allowance.

Let's assume 31% flat tax with a tax free allowance of £10k.

Someone on £10k pays no tax.
Someone on £20k pays £3100 or about 15.5%
Someone on £40k pays £9300 or about 23%
Someone on £100k pays £27900 or about 28%

Truly progressive while simple and cheap to administer.

I'd prefer a larger tax free allowance and a higher percentage to take as many people out of tax as we can.
 

logiciel

Moderator
UKIP, like all other parties, currently have no manifesto for the General Election.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Please provide a single study showing it is cheaper to administer in any really tangible sense.

It's not about missing the point.

It's about not taking more money out of the pockets of people who need it most.

I want those people who may be thinking about voting UKIP to really understand what's in store for them.

That said, when they can put food on the table, I'm sure the fact they are being "subsidised less' will ease their worries.

I'm not for higher tax rates for the rich however, I rather like a max 40% cap, I don't like however dumping on a huge section of society, essentially trying to spin it that if you only earn 30k you're now a scrounger who's having to be subsidised.

The section ironically who do most of the work that makes the rich richer.

I wonder what the numbers are actually, in terms of what taxes the IR bring in from the masses vs the "rich".

I would be better of under UKIP financially, I won't vote for a party that wants to make life even
tougher for people less well off.
 

tapzilla2k

Distinguished Member
Given that their popularity is increasing (significantly), how you can claim that their 'trajectory' is for zero MPs is known only to you...
:facepalm:

Erm you can look at Lord Ashcroft's in depth polling of the Marginal seats. The last set indicated that Ukip would split the tory vote enabling Labour to win some of the marginal seats and other parties to win in other seats etc His next set of polling data is due to come out after the Euro Elections. When it really matters i.e. the General Election Ukip's popularity may not translate into winning seats. Ukip might win a few seats, but I don't think they'll win enough to upset the balance of power in parliament. There is a long way to go and General Election debates to come where Farage could bomb. The General Election is an entirely different landscape to local and European elections i.e. people concentrate on the fundamentals - The Economy, Education and Health.
The next election is more likely to be about the Economy and living standards than it is about an in/out vote on Europe. That will be an issue, but it won't be the decisive one.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
Please provide a single study showing it is cheaper to administer in any really tangible sense.

http://www.adamsmith.org/sites/default/files/images/stories/flattaxuk.pdf

THE FLAT TAX

I'm not for higher tax rates for the rich however, I rather like a max 40% cap, I don't like however dumping on a huge section of society, essentially trying to spin it that if you only earn 30k you're now a scrounger who's having to be subsidised.

The section ironically who do most of the work that makes the rich richer.

See BBC News - Your taxes: What you pay and what you get back

As you can see, up to the 6th decile, people get more back in benefits and services than they pay in tax.

I'm not sure why you are using your own spin such as if you only earn 30k you are a scrounger. Neither I or anyone else in this discussion has said any such thing.

As for your comment about those who do most of the work that make the rich richer. Oh please. It isn't the 1970s citizen brother.
 

sidicks

Banned
Erm you can look at Lord Ashcroft's in depth polling of the Marginal seats. The last set indicated that Ukip would split the tory vote enabling Labour to win some of the marginal seats and other parties to win in other seats etc His next set of polling data is due to come out after the Euro Elections. When it really matters i.e. the General Election Ukip's popularity may not translate into winning seats. Ukip might win a few seats, but I don't think they'll win enough to upset the balance of power in parliament. There is a long way to go and General Election debates to come where Farage could bomb. The General Election is an entirely different landscape to local and European elections i.e. people concentrate on the fundamentals - The Economy, Education and Health.
The next election is more likely to be about the Economy and living standards than it is about an in/out vote on Europe. That will be an issue, but it won't be the decisive one.

UKIP may or may not win any seats in the general election.

The fact is that be any credible measure their support has risen considerably since the last election - their 'trajectory' is therefore clearly upwards, and anyone that suggests otherwise is clearly just an anti-UKIP troll.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member

I should have been clearer, I don't mean a PDF from a guy, I mean something official, governmental .

That said, can you highlight the areas which shows a huge saving in processing 1 tax rate as opposed to the average of 2 for most people, which is what I asked for. I think we had a miscommunication on that, perhaps my fault looking back at the posts. I took your initial comment to mean it would be cheaper for HMRC to process 1 tax rate than 2 or 3, which I strongly doubt.

As a child with a calculator can take £10k off a salary then work out a % of two numbers, it's hard to suggest the HMRC find this a tough prospect as opposed to processing a singular percentage of a figure.


I'm not sure why you are using your own spin such as if you only earn 30k you are a scrounger. Neither I or anyone else in this discussion has said any such thing.

Actually they have, exactly that, it's very easy to spin around a meaning by saying "your subsidising them". It's also transparently clear what that means. Imagine your the guy getting less to take home each week and then being told by the better off , we refuse to "subsidise you any more"

As for your comment about those who do most of the work that make the rich richer. Oh please. It isn't the 1970s citizen brother.

It doesn't matter what decade you're in ..

It also doesn't detract in anyway from the core point.

If you want to live in a country where we make the poor , poorer, that's your prerogative, but however you spin it, they will have less money to live on than they do under the current tax bracket.
 
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sidicks

Banned
Please provide a single study showing it is cheaper to administer in any really tangible sense.

Common sense

It's not about missing the point.

It's about not taking more money out of the pockets of people who need it most.

I want those people who may be thinking about voting UKIP to really understand what's in store for them.

That said, when they can put food on the table, I'm sure the fact they are being "subsidised less' will ease their worries.

I'm not for higher tax rates for the rich however, I rather like a max 40% cap, I don't like however dumping on a huge section of society, essentially trying to spin it that if you only earn 30k you're now a scrounger who's having to be subsidised.

A strange comment - please confirm who has said this or even vaguely implied it...
:hiya:

The section ironically who do most of the work that makes the rich richer.

I wonder what the numbers are actually, in terms of what taxes the IR bring in from the masses vs the "rich".
As stated previously, the top 30% (or so) subsidise the remaining 70% in terms of goods and services received. That's as it should be, obviously, but is worth bearing in mind when claims are made about tax cuts equalling 'huge pay rises' for the wealthiest.

I would be better of under UKIP financially, I won't vote for a party that wants to make life even
tougher for people less well off.

But that's not necessarily true, given the other comments about total tax raised, tax free allowances and the impact of other taxes etc.
:nono:
 

sidicks

Banned
Actually they have, exactly that, it's very easy to spin around a meaning by saying "your subsidising them". It's also transparently clear what that means.

Who us "they"?

That the top 30% subsidise the remainder is an undeniable fact. That those being subsidised are "scroungers" is a subjective judgement and one that most people would find offensive.

Please confirm who is making such claims...
:(
 

tapzilla2k

Distinguished Member
UKIP may or may not win any seats in the general election.

The fact is that be any credible measure their support has risen considerably since the last election - their 'trajectory' is therefore clearly upwards, and anyone that suggests otherwise is clearly just an anti-UKIP troll.

It does not make them an anti-Ukip troll, if they have an understanding of how the marginal seats play out, the cost of Tory voters in those marginal seats going to Ukip i.e. Labour or other parties win the seat or indeed Ukip because the Tory vote is either split between them and Ukip or Ukip has taken all the Tory votes (which could happen in some marginal seats).
Some reading for you -

Lord Ashcroft's big bucket of cold water to douse Tory optimism | Andrew Rawnsley | Comment is free | The Observer
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft’s mega poll has UKIP on 16pc – the highest his surveys have ever recorded
Lord Ashcroft Polls - The home of polling and political research from Lord Ashcroft

One final thing to keep in mind, Ukip's popularity always peaks at the European Elections and tails off when it comes to a General Election (that is a fact you can check). The key for Ukip will be to avoid that and actually translate the support they have in the Euro Elections into the General Election. I think at the moment, it's difficult to say if Ukip can achieve that and any talk of Ukip altering the landscape of British Politics is premature at best. There is a long way to go until May 2015 a lot of things can change that will either go in Ukip's favour or against them.

One of the other problems for Ukip is they just don't have the resources or ground campaigns in the seats they are targeting. Which the other political parties do have. You only have to look at the Liberal Democrats in the last byelection they won. A good ground campaign in a constituency can buck a national trend. Labour has a target list of seats to win and has put the resources in accordingly. The maths for Labour to get a majority is fairly simple and does not require Scottish MP's. Winning those seats is another matter entirely. Same goes for the Tories.
 

sidicks

Banned
It does not make them an anti-Ukip troll, if they have an understanding of how the marginal seats play out, the cost of Tory voters in those marginal seats going to Ukip i.e. Labour or other parties win the seat or indeed Ukip because the Tory vote is either split between them and Ukip or Ukip has taken all the Tory votes (which could happen in some marginal seats).
Some reading for you -

Lord Ashcroft's big bucket of cold water to douse Tory optimism | Andrew Rawnsley | Comment is free | The Observer
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Lord Ashcroft’s mega poll has UKIP on 16pc – the highest his surveys have ever recorded
Lord Ashcroft Polls - The home of polling and political research from Lord Ashcroft

One final thing to keep in mind, Ukip's popularity always peaks at the European Elections and tails off when it comes to a General Election (that is a fact you can check). The key for Ukip will be to avoid that and actually translate the support they have in the Euro Elections into the General Election. I think at the moment, it's difficult to say if Ukip can achieve that and any talk of Ukip altering the landscape of British Politics is premature at best. There is a long way to go until May 2015 a lot of things can change that will either go in Ukip's favour or against them.

One of the other problems for Ukip is they just don't have the resources or ground campaigns in the seats they are targeting. Which the other political parties do have. You only have to look at the Liberal Democrats in the last byelection they won. A good ground campaign in a constituency can buck a national trend. Labour has a target list of seats to win and has put the resources in accordingly. The maths for Labour to get a majority is fairly simple and does not require Scottish MP's. Winning those seats is another matter entirely. Same goes for the Tories.

None of this changes the fact that the 'trajectory' for UKIP support is undeniable upwards and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
None of this changes the fact that the 'trajectory' for UKIP support is undeniable upwards and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

After the 2015 general election what counts is bums on seats in the house of commons. The chances are the undeniable upward trend for UKIP support will not hatch out any UKIP MPs in 2015.

However, if UKIP persuade many Labour voters into their camp as well as Tories who knows what might happen with regard to marginal seats.
 

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