30/60 fps or 25/50fps for shooting in Europe

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by Martin68, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. Martin68

    Martin68
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    454
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Swansea
    Ratings:
    +21
    I live in the UK and we use the 50Hz tv system, this is 50i HDTV.
    However, I plan to shoot my vacation video in Europe later this year by using three different cameras, an action cam, my Galaxy S8 phone camera and my Panasonic FZ2000 (FZ2500 in US) as my main camera.
    The intention is to later edit the footage together and burn to blu-ray

    My question is, which frame rate should I shoot in for UK viewing compatibility?
    My Action cam and Phone camera only shoot at 30fps, yet the FZ2000 shoots at 25 or 29.97fps

    so will 29.97fps mix with 30fps without frame dropping if mastered as one or the other format?
    I know 25fps and 30fps drop frames when mixed and mastered but would i be wiser to shoot at 25fps instead of 29.97 on the FZ2000 being that i'm in Europe, even though i'm shooting in 30fps on my phone and action cam?

    Im talking about shooting 4k video too so 50 or 60fps are not an option with my cameras in 4k mode.
     
  2. rogs

    rogs
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,388
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Dorset
    Ratings:
    +384
    It'll be easier to convert 29.97 to 30 fps than it will to convert 29.97 to 25 fps, which - as you already know - will cause horrible glitches with frame drops.
    You will have to correct the length of the audio track though.. If you convert from 29.97 to 30fps then you reduce the overall length of the file by .001%. With long clips that will cause the audio to gradually lose sync, so you'll need to reduce the length of the associated audio track by that amount to maintain audio sync.
    Final display shouldn't be a problem. Most modern European TVs can display 30fps footage OK...
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  3. 200p

    200p
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +240
    One issue might be the lighting (and maybe shooting TV screens/monitors?). You might want to check the lighting/mains frequency (eg. 50Hz or 60Hz) in the country shooting in (type of lighting may also be a factor) and try to match that so there would be no flickering if shooting with lights?
     
  4. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    24,668
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Redditch
    Ratings:
    +4,212
    All of Europe uses 50Hz. You would have to be somewhere like the US to find 60Hz.
     
  5. 200p

    200p
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +240
    I think you're right with lighting. It does seem all of Europe uses 50Hz electric so normally all lights would be 50hz (or multiple of it). Though I suppose if you were shooting a monitor/TV that still might be running at a 60Hz (or 60/1.001?) multiple.
     
  6. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    24,668
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Redditch
    Ratings:
    +4,212
    Most European countries are interconnected with a high voltage AC grid system. It's would be impossible if they did not all operate at 50Hz. The UK has interconnection with Europe but as these use High Voltage DC technology the UK system does not have to be synchronised with the rest of Europe. Lighting is only an issue where the light actually goes out a current zero. As a result there is no stroboscopic issues with incandescent lighting sources (anything that produces light from a heated filament). Any device that uses switch mode power supplies can operate at many frequencies. eg A modern UK TV will sync at the following nominal frequencies and multiples.

    24, 25, 30 and 60. In the case of 24, 30 and 60 the actual frequency may be a little lower (eg 29.97 for NTSC).
     
  7. 12harry

    12harry
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,803
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +391
    Why doesn't OP try the cameras here, in the UK ... and perform a short-edit....?

    ( Of course this can't include PC screens/TV/street lighting . . . but as glt has suggested, these are 50Hz in Europe... or using switching at higher frequencies.).

    At the start of Tests, make-up a card with each camcorder-description/settings. This will be easily seen in the final Edit/Render.....
    Alternatively record each camera by speech.
    I suspect ( and Hope ), this problem will be found not to exist.
     
  8. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,511
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +191
    This was the very question I was asking myself recently having just purchased a Panasonic FZ2000 mainly to shoot 4K video (as some posters here will remember my recent post when deciding upon which camera to purchase for 4K).
    Previously I used a Pan TM900 and almost entirely shot in 1080 50p literally all over the world.
    However I knew I would miss 50fps with 4K on the FZ2000 and I LOATHE 25fps, it's an AWFUL frame rate to shoot in. HD and to an extent 4K

    Anyway I went to France on holiday a few weeks ago so before i went I trialed 4k @ 25p and @ 30p. Needless to say 25p was quite juddery on moving subjects and fast pans but ok on static subjects as i knew it would be, but WOW the PQ overall was SUPERB.
    I experimented with different shutter speeds beyond the norm 1/50 (THE ND filter was a MUST on a bright day as it allows you to maintain a 1/50 shutter). It didn't really help that much so I tended to stick with 1/50 for 25fps and 1/60 for 30fps.

    I tried it on 4k @30 p for a local 10k run which was an improvement over 25p BUT it did flicker on internal shots with indoor lighting, but still usable video.

    I also did some tests with the different settings on cards as 12Harry describes.

    When playing back on my PAN 55 CX 802 TV I had to put the 'Frame creation' on to MID to smooth out the judder in some shots on the 25fps video, but got away with it OFF on the 30fps video, although turning on did improve the smoothness.

    So, for my South of France trip I had to decide whether to shoot in 4K @ 25 or 30fps?
    Knowing that it will be mainly external shots, landscapes etc I decided on 30fps. There were some internal lighting shots in churches, museums but I decided to take a hit on the flicker.

    On a city bus tour I decided to switch to HD 1080 50p as I feared the video would be too fast and juddery for 25 or 30p. Plus the 4K was eating into my memory cards more than I was used to with HD and I was also using it to take photos as well.

    Having been back over a week now and edited my footage I'm glad I shot in 30fps. The moving subject, pans etc look really good on the whole (i can put up wit the odd internal flickery shot). I've had to learn to pan and tilt a lot slower. The 4K PQ is jaw dropping fantastic! The sunny conditions helped and the ND filter is a god send.

    The camera is a fair bit heavier and a bit unwieldy for shooting video compared to a small Panasonic camcorder which I'm used to using on my travels and you need at least 3 batteries to last the day. If you are going to do a lot of internal shots then you might want to consider using 25fps. I don't know if there's any 'anti flicker' filter that you could add in post with the software you use. I use Edius Pro 7 and couldn't find anything.

    It's also worth noting that 30fps is the adopted 'internet video frame rate' for the likes of YT etal. So it's not just a 'US/NTSC legacy frame rate' anymore.

    Overall, I' very pleased with the 4K video on the FZ2000 (How I wish it would shoot in 50 or 60p in 4K) but the higher bit rates of 100mbps + are also a big improvement of the 17 and 50mbps on my HD camcorder. Takes great photos too (but it's no Nikon D7100!).

    For the record I went to Marseille, Avignon, Arles, Uzes and The Pont Du Gard. I'll try and post some YT samples though they will be compressed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  9. rogs

    rogs
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,388
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Dorset
    Ratings:
    +384
    ....Time to start saving for a GH5?...:)
     
  10. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,511
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +191
    I was tempted for that very reason, but the price difference was just too much. I'm learning to live with 30fps!
     
  11. 200p

    200p
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +240
    But YouTube also supports 50 fps encodes and 60 fps (maybe it was in the past that it only supported US rates?).
     
  12. chrishull3

    chrishull3
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,030
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Ratings:
    +285
    The FZ1000 your FZ2000s predecessor was my first 4k camera,detail wise it was better than a GH4 i had or the GH5 i have now.It sounds a a great camera.
     
  13. Martin68

    Martin68
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    454
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Swansea
    Ratings:
    +21
    Thanks for all your comments and replies. I have decided to shoot 4k video in 30p to avoid incompatibility of mixing frame rates, I have mostly LED lighting in my house in the UK, and have so far not noticed any flicker, however i do have a UV light fly zapper, and I can faintly see a flicker from that, so it seems more of an issue with flourecent tubes.
    It's very true that the internet seems to have adopted 30/60 hz frequencies, even UK computer monitors seem to run on 30/60, and just about all cameras sold in the UK (phones, dash cams, action cams, drone cams etc) apart from dedicated camcorders and hybrid cameras record at 30 or 60fps, so I ask myself why is most of Europe and other 50hz countries now using two totally incompatible frame rates side by side? with 30/60hz slowly taking over as more and more people shoot with their phones.
    Yet the USA and all other 60hz countries have no issues with compatibility.
    The damage has been done now, but can so easily be rectified if all manufacturers decided to make their cameras duel frequency, like this I would have chosen 25p on my Galaxy S8, but i have no choice than to shoot in 30p in the UK
    Also what's the point of even using 29.97fps as the FZ2000 offers, why not put it in line with all other 30fps cams? 29.97fps was used for standard definition NTSC which is old tech now.

    On a different note, i'm quite disappointed regarding the low light auto focus and noise levels from the FZ2000, I have the mark 1 RX10 and in this area the RX10 knocks spots off the FZ2000, the RX10 shows no focus hunting and noise is very minimal.
    Even if i turn the ISO down to 200, the picture becomes very dark, but the noise remains very strong and also has a pinkish tinge to it, is this normal? This is the case in 1080 as well as 4k, and even in iA mode

    Everyone in reviews ive read are saying that the FZ2000 is superb for quality, and looks pro for video, yet my RX10 M1 seems to do much better, in low light, and i mean MUCH better!

    Can anyone link me to a tutorial of how to set each menu setting up correctly for creating 3 custome video modes, 1 outdoors day light, C2 outdoor night, fierworks, street lights etc. and C3 indoor evening lighting.
    Ive tried various options but one mode seems to affect another mode already set and I end up resetting the camera and start again. Im starting to regret my purchase, if i didnt have the RX10 I may feel different.
     
  14. 200p

    200p
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Ratings:
    +240
    Technically the USA is less compatible than Europe. Pretty much all European TVs and Blu-ray players support 50hz and 60hz content/inputs (European TVs had to support both to get the "HD ready" badge etc.). The same can't be said for US TVs and players (not all of them support 50Hz content/signals).
    I agree they should get rid of it. However I think it's still what is mostly used in the US even for digital TV (eg. HD) for legacy reasons. Just like the vast majority of "24 fps" Blu-rays are actually approx 23.976 fps. Even the UHD resolutions of the UHD Blu-ray support 23.976 as well as 59.94 fps (approx) - though it doesn't support 30 or 29.97 fps - for that it would need to be stored in the 60 or 59.94 fps container. The were attempts to get rid of it for the next gen TV standards - eg. in the US (eg. Rec2020 but they added them as well as the integer rates).

    The RX10 M2 also uses the fractional rates for the "US" frame rates (eg. 120 fps is actually 120/1.001=approx 119.8801 fps - I'm sure it's similar for all the other US rates available with it).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  15. 12harry

    12harry
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,803
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +391
    Frame rates are curious . . . we think we've sorted it out then another standard appears. Whilst "legacy mains-sync" was the rule, nowadays it depends on the electronics . . . quite why they can't detect a frame-rate "marker" ( for example ) at the start of each session I don't know . . . then the screen could adjust, so there is never an issue.

    That FZ2000 has a 20-1 zoom and ND filters - so that's nicely aimed at Video..... but the frame-rate ( from Martin68 ), of 25fps does appear somewhat slow . . . didn't anyone realise this in Japan? You only need to step out of the Office and film traffic.
    It's possibly linked to the high bit-rate, -OR- so you can take individual 8Mpx stills . . . but since the FZ2000 does very acceptable Stills - why would you rely on taking out video-stills using a slow shutter speed? It makes little sense to me.

    It may be the GH5 et al. would be "better" ( and a lot more flexible - at a cost.).
    .... but that FZ2000 looks very interesting...... ANYONE like to compare it with the Pana VX990? - this is a camcorder; but for some unexplained reason omits ND filtering.....However, VX990 has Onion-Skin for animations and "Dolly-Zoom" for use in special filmic conditions. It appears to offer 24Mpx in the "best" Stills mode..... so taking *Mpx from the video wouldn't be that useful, esp. if it's got motion-blur.

    Presently both these ( but there may be others ), Pana models suffer from "Cashback" syndrome - which I fear is a ruse to cheat folks of £50 . . . . what other benefit is there in the transaction? I have seen website-prices increase by £50 with this "Offer" - so do they fool me? NO !
    While I'm not buying, I comfort myself that a Mk II version may appear....

    However, I guess I'm thinking that "Very Good HD" is really all I need - so a "better camcorder" would be more sense and leave 4K until various clubs can show it. At the moment DVD-quality appears to be acceptable . . . . and then there are 'phones......

    But extra-Kit is what I really desire - which would "Lift" the camera-work.... like a crane that can be packed into a small carpet bag . . . maybe a slider - but that's more for Dramas which tend to be indoor-settings . . . . so a simple table-slide using a box can do this.


    Cheers.
     

Share This Page

Loading...