3 problems encountered when using lyngdorf TDAI-1120

mickbirch2000

Well-known Member
I have found Dali Rubicon 2 standmount speakers are perfect with the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, at a price point/quality that ties in nicely.
The soundstage is wide/big, the speakers disappear when playing well recorded music, they are nominally 4ohm speakers so can make good use of the 120watts per channel available from the 1120.
I have mine on heavy sand filled stands, secured using Blu-tac.
In my room after running RP with the REL sub music is sublime.
Worth a listen if you get a chance.
 

harkpabst

Active Member
Take a look at an early (Walker era) Control Unit. It had bass, treble and high level filter controls (as did all preamps at the time) but he included a "Cancel" switch that bypassed all these layers of processing in his attempt to follow the "straight wire with gain" philosophy. This was surely one of the reasons for Acoustical's hugh success as arguably the finest gear available at the time. Certainly times have changed, but the theory still applies - the less processing the better for ultimate fidelity.

View attachment 1617776
I can see where you're coming from and I can partly (but only partly) agree.

The example of the 22 is still not a good one. Did you take the time and read the actual instruction manual? Here are two related excerpts:
Quad 22 Instruction Manual said:
The 7K is the most useful switch position for modern recordings. The 5K switch position transposes the filter operation to a lower frequency for use with older recordings. Conversely the 10K position transposes the filter to higher frequencies and here it is useful on high quality transmissions where it may be used for the subtle correction of imperfections associated with microphones.

A cancel position is fitted to the filter switch. In this position, the bass, treble and filters are all bypassed to give a level response. This position is a reference by which the effects of the settings of the other controls may be judged without upsetting the position of these controls.
Quad 22 Instruction Manual said:
The whole of the operation of the equipment may be summarised:

Use bass and treble controls to give best results on all types of programme. This helps compensate for loudspeaker peculiarities, personal preference, etc.

Select programme and type of service.

Adjust volume to suitable level.

Adjust filter as required. (7K switch position may be regarded as normal).

Alter bass and treble only if it is required to alter the musical balance.

Not a single word indicating the cancel position would give the most natural playback due to least amount of processing. It just provides a reference point. As of series 4 (pre-amps 44 and 34, still Walker area) there isn't a separate cancel button any longer. The neutral position of the tilt and bass lift switches (and in fact they are switches, not potentiometers) is good enough. To the best of my knowledge all Quad phono inputs did have a fixed, non-switchable subsonic filter. It's not even on the input module but on the "mainboard". The advantage of having one is just too obvious and any additional switch would introduce additional problems, at least long term.

When I upgraded my two personal 34 units to more modern audio op-amps I did replace (most of) the DC coupling caps with wire links because the newer devices have almost zero DC offset. The only reason being "less parts in the signal path". I can agree to that.

Even more important we are talking a TDAI here, a fully digital amplifier. Unless other designs there is no additional DSP that might be switched into or out off the signal path. This concept simply doesn't apply here. It's a "power DAC" as Lyngdorf call it and all components are always part of the signal path, no matter how filter coefficients are set. If the processing power would be insufficient to do all the required calculations in time you would definitely notice that ...

Most importantly @JW music did not ask why the sound of his TDAI-1120 was missing sparkle or life or whatever. He asked specific questions about noise with his current speakers and sound balance after running RP (and found the answer to the third question himself). None of this is related to DSP "issues".

BTW: I would not recommend full-range electrostatics like Quad models [edit: at least the classical ESL and ESL 63] for use with a Lyngdorf amps (or class D amps in general).
 
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JW music

Standard Member
I finally know the reason why the sound pressure after the first RP measurement is not as high as that after the second RP measurement:

In the output setup of app, there is a level (dB). When RP is measured for the first time, it is -12, and now it is 0.The difference of output sound pressure is 12 dB.

Now I can say there is no problem with Lyngdorf's system software. It's just a ridiculous misunderstanding. But I think it's strange. In my impression, I didn't modify the level (dB).
 

harkpabst

Active Member
If you have played around with different output settings (like selecting different subs) the level might have been set to -12 dB without you noticing it. This value will stick then, even if you finally select the full-range output option.

Are you still having issues with increased noise floor? If so, do yourself a favor and turn down the volume on the speakers. It's most probably much better to turn up the volume on the amplifier instead.
 

JW music

Standard Member
If you have played around with different output settings (like selecting different subs) the level might have been set to -12 dB without you noticing it. This value will stick then, even if you finally select the full-range output option.

Are you still having issues with increased noise floor? If so, do yourself a favor and turn down the volume on the speakers. It's most probably much better to turn up the volume on the amplifier instead.
Thank you, I have referred to your suggestions and solved the noise floor problem by turn down the input volume on the speakers.
 

JW music

Standard Member
Hello, everyone. I have a few new questions about the setup of Lyngdorf that need your help.
In the output setup of Lyngdorf,we can see this:

1.jpg


What is the difference between full range and tape out?

2.jpg


how to set the Level(dB) is best? Keep the default of -12 or set it to 0?
What is the difference between limiter off and limiter on? I didn't see any different feedback from adjusting these two options.
Look forward to your help,thanks!
 

Jamie

Distinguished Member
What is the difference between full range and tape out?

Full range will be a pre-out so variable level controlled by the volume control to connect to a stereo power amp.

Tape out will give a fixed level line out (to input into the recording input of a tape deck) that could also be used to feed a signal to a separate headphone amp or even a second zone with another integrated amplifier.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Hello, everyone. I have a few new questions about the setup of Lyngdorf that need your help.
In the output setup of Lyngdorf,we can see this:

View attachment 1619193

What is the difference between full range and tape out?

View attachment 1619218

how to set the Level(dB) is best? Keep the default of -12 or set it to 0?
What is the difference between limiter off and limiter on? I didn't see any different feedback from adjusting these two options.
Look forward to your help,thanks!
@Jamie - it's not quite that, although easy to make the mistake given the terminology being used. Below is the relevant excerpt from my 2170 user manual which as you can see doesn't align exactly with the menu structure in the 1120, but the concept and terminology is the same.

In short 'full range' refers to not applyng a crossover filter to that output (but any room perfect room correction will be applied and this is independent of the any concept of volume/level)

Full scale vs Variable in a different setting refers to line level vs pre-out.

So for an external headphone amp you'd select 'tape out'* and 'full scale'

*Looks like 1120 doesn't have the Headphone option that the 2170 does.

5.6.3
Analog output
The available settings are:
High pass removes the frequencies below the crossover frequency.
Low pass removes the frequencies above the crossover frequency.
Full range allows the signal to pass unfiltered.
Headphone disables RoomPerfectTM, voicings are still available. Muting the TDAI-2170 will only mute the speakers, not this output.
Tape Out disables RoomPerfectTM, voicings and volume control. Off mutes the output.

Volume
The volume can be set to regulated or full scale. Regulated means that the output level will follow the level of the volume control. Full scale means there is a constant full scale output.
Warning: If full scale is selected, you will have full volume output, and this can overload and damage speakers.

Output level
This adjusts the overall output level in order to align the level of a subwoofer to the level of your main speakers. Making the output adjustment here is far better than attenuating the level on the subwoofer itself.
 

Adam72

Active Member
Have to say after reading most of this it sounds like a lot of hassle this RP stuff. How about just putting an album on a kicking back and enjoying your system.

Just a thought.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Have to say after reading most of this it sounds like a lot of hassle this RP stuff. How about just putting an album on a kicking back and enjoying your system.

Just a thought.

No hassle at all using RP and putting on an album, kicking back and enjoying the music is exactly what I do. :)
 

Adam72

Active Member
No hassle at all using RP and putting on an album, kicking back and enjoying the music is exactly what I do. :)
Fair play, I guess once it's done it's done. There's another thread running where the guy is trying to incorporate a sub, it all sounds confusing to me....each to their own though.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Fair play, I guess once it's done it's done. There's another thread running where the guy is trying to incorporate a sub, it all sounds confusing to me....each to their own though.

As long as you measure the distances, including any inherent delay your sub might have, and place the microphone per Lyngdorf's instructions, it really is easy and quick. Then if you want to play around a bit further with additional measurements or different settings, it's also possible and quite quick (about 15 mins per calibration) for the stereo amps. I couldn't tell you the last time I did a calibration and as you said, just listen to and enjoy the music. :smashin:
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Fair play, I guess once it's done it's done. There's another thread running where the guy is trying to incorporate a sub, it all sounds confusing to me....each to their own though.
It’s not hard. And it’s totally worth it. For a stereo set-up even with 2 subs, most of the time it would be 20 mins of set-up once. You’ll only do it again if you change/move speakers or rearrange other furniture in a major way.

Unless of course you want to fiddle, which some people do.
 
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DT79

Distinguished Member
Did you really mean this or did you intend to say "It's not hard"? I honestly can't think of anything that's hard about it unless it proves difficult to get a "sub delay' factor from the manufacturer.
Ha ha, no that was a typo. Will edit that. Good spot Steve!
 

JW music

Standard Member
@Jamie - it's not quite that, although easy to make the mistake given the terminology being used. Below is the relevant excerpt from my 2170 user manual which as you can see doesn't align exactly with the menu structure in the 1120, but the concept and terminology is the same.

In short 'full range' refers to not applyng a crossover filter to that output (but any room perfect room correction will be applied and this is independent of the any concept of volume/level)

Full scale vs Variable in a different setting refers to line level vs pre-out.

So for an external headphone amp you'd select 'tape out'* and 'full scale'

*Looks like 1120 doesn't have the Headphone option that the 2170 does.

5.6.3
Analog output
The available settings are:
High pass removes the frequencies below the crossover frequency.
Low pass removes the frequencies above the crossover frequency.
Full range allows the signal to pass unfiltered.
Headphone disables RoomPerfectTM, voicings are still available. Muting the TDAI-2170 will only mute the speakers, not this output.
Tape Out disables RoomPerfectTM, voicings and volume control. Off mutes the output.

Volume
The volume can be set to regulated or full scale. Regulated means that the output level will follow the level of the volume control. Full scale means there is a constant full scale output.
Warning: If full scale is selected, you will have full volume output, and this can overload and damage speakers.

Output level
This adjusts the overall output level in order to align the level of a subwoofer to the level of your main speakers. Making the output adjustment here is far better than attenuating the level on the subwoofer itself.
Your reply is more detailed, thank you.
According to your response, in theory, tape out seems to be able to connect speakers? The biggest difference with full range is that the room perfect function cannot be enabled.
 

harkpabst

Active Member
What is the difference between full range and tape out?
It's actually what @Jamie said.
So for an external headphone amp you'd select 'tape out'* and 'full scale'
❗ Caution ❗

This might be one of the differences between TDAI-1120 and TDAI-2170. On the 1120 when Routing is set to Tape Out the Output level control option (Regulated/Full scale) actually disappears and you are left with only a static Level option. This is the behavior at least with current firmware 1.4.1 but I'm relatively sure it was the same before.

I haven't tried it myself but I bet this means that Tape Out is always Full scale.

According to your response, in theory, tape out seems to be able to connect speakers? The biggest difference with full range is that the room perfect function cannot be enabled.
Consequentially: no.

If the input volume control of your Tannoys can really reduce the level to zero you could try it out for yourself. But to be on the safe side do not use Tape Out for active speakers (or subwoofers).

If you want to do a quick comparison of RP enabled/disabled you can simply enable the Show RoomPerfect bypass option in Audio setup.
 

andycc72

Well-known Member
Have to say after reading most of this it sounds like a lot of hassle this RP stuff. How about just putting an album on a kicking back and enjoying your system.

Just a thought.
😂😂😂 honestly I’m an utter technophobe and it’s actually a piece of p!ss once you work it out, which for most people doesn’t take long at all.

Once it’s done you set and forget. It’s not difficult at all and the results in most rooms to most people are very positive. Worth the minor learning curve.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Your reply is more detailed, thank you.
According to your response, in theory, tape out seems to be able to connect speakers? The biggest difference with full range is that the room perfect function cannot be enabled.
Read @harkpabst post immediately below your one that I’m quoting above. It seems on the 1120 selecting tape out will default volume to full scale so it can only be a fixed line out (with all DSP bypassed). Suitable for recording or hit a headphone amp or to drive a second zone, but not much else.
 

JW music

Standard Member
这实际上是 @Jamie 所说的。

❗ 警告 ❗

这可能是 TDAI-1120 和 TDAI-2170 之间的差异之一。在 1120 上,当 Routing 设置为 Tape Out 时,输出电平控制选项(Regulated/Full scale)实际上消失了,只剩下静态电平选项。这至少是当前固件 1.4.1 的行为,但我相对确定它以前是相同的。

我自己还没有尝试过,但我敢打赌这意味着 Tape Out 总是全尺寸。


结果:没有。

如果您的 Tannoys 的输入音量控制真的可以将音量降低到零,您可以自己尝试一下。但为了安全起见,请勿将 Tape Out 用于有源扬声器(或低音炮)。

如果您想快速比较 RP 的启用/禁用,您只需在音频设置中启用 Show RoomPerfect 旁路选项即可。
我不想尝试这个,因为系统提示选择tape out后,RP数据将被重置。我只想找出功能差异。
 

acgingersnaps

Well-known Member
Fair play, I guess once it's done it's done. There's another thread running where the guy is trying to incorporate a sub, it all sounds confusing to me....each to their own though.
That might have been mine. That was as much to do with never having used a sub as well. Once you get used to RP it's a doddle. I reran it the other day in under 15 mins.
Given my current sound quality, I'd say well worth a bit of head scratching, and now it just works like a normal hifi.
 

harkpabst

Active Member
I don't want to try this because the system suggests that the RP data will be reset after selecting tape out. I just want to find out the functional differences.
I understand you just want to learn about how the TDAI-1120 works. There really is no reason why you should try it out as there would be no benefit for you.

However, if you want to try out different settings or speaker positions that would affect RoomPerfect you can simply connect a USB memory stick and back up all the settings:
Manage Software Backup.png


If you decide to go back to the previous setting or speaker positioning you can easily restore all settings including RP data from one of your backups:
Manage Software Restore.png


A restore will really apply to all settings and options but will not reset the firmware to a previous version.

Back to other open questions.
2.jpg


how to set the Level(dB) is best? Keep the default of -12 or set it to 0?
What is the difference between limiter off and limiter on? I didn't see any different feedback from adjusting these two options.

-12 dB is the default for subwoofer configurations only. It's not a general default. When connecting other devices to the analogue output (like active speakers, headphone amplifiers, external soundcards, tape recorders, ...) it all depends on the input sensitivity and load margin of that device.

One example. You could connect your miniDSP DDRC-24 to the analogue output of the TDAI. It does not make much sense, but you could actually use the 1120 with Dirac room correction this way. The DDRC-24 has internal jumpers to select a max. input voltage of either 4V or 2V. The 1120 will put out 4V at full scale (0 dB digital signal) when the output level is set to 0 dB. This would be the preferred option when the DDRC is in the 4V position. If it is in the 2V max. position it could be overdriven by the 1120, so the output level should be reduced to -20 dB (I think from the top of my head). Edit: It's probably -10 dB, not -20 dB. It's not a voltage level but a power leve since it translates directly into SPL readings.

If your subwoofer and/or active speaker has a variable input it is usually best to try and find the best compromise between decreasing 1120 output level and the speakers input level. Whatever combination results in the least noise is usually right.

From my point of view there's no reason to disable the limiter when listening to music. The amp will detect increasing distortion and start to soften it.
 
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Khazul

Well-known Member
Why is it, I wonder,that this forun (avforum.com) is so prejudiced in favour of Lyngdorf? Did it start off as a Lyngdorf users forum?
The reason I would look at Lyngdorf (or Linn for that matter) would be if looking for a good amp that included a good music friendly transparent room correction DSP system that was well suited to music at a price that wasn't insane (Meridian DSP active speakers for eg).

IMHO most of the DSP systems in common AVRs just dont cut it for one reason or another when it comes to hi-res music playback. Having gone through the process of carefully measuring and analysing my room and creating my own custom designed frequency and phase room correction filters (for use in Roon) along with applying a natural room tilt it has given me an appreciation for the differences between what works well for a AV sound and what works well and is most enjoyable for stereo music within the limitations of common current approaches. There are some correction that can work well for AV sound that I find annoying for music and conversely I prefer a different overall tilt for music vs AV sound.

From previous posts you seem of the opinion that room DSP is exclusively the domain of AVRs and such discussion belong there. Having seen through the filter design process for music, I think it very much belongs here until the performance of DSP that is generally thrown at the problem and the quality of the analytic methods and filter generation process has considerably improved over what is typical currently. Hopefully in time compromises exclusively in favour of AV or music will no longer have to be made and prejudices around including tonal manipulation controls (tilt, loudness and tone controls) will go away and be a common part of room DSP preset associated with a mode of use to suit people's room tilts and tastes.

I do not have a lyngdorf and dont see myself buying one anytime soon because for me the problem is solved for now, but if I were in the market for a amp with good room DSP - it would be fighting over the #1 spot vs Linn offerings).

Having finally got a really good sounding transparent room correction working for music, I have to say I am completely sold on the concept and would not be without it now.
 

Cosmocat

Standard Member
I have found Dali Rubicon 2 standmount speakers are perfect with the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, at a price point/quality that ties in nicely.
The soundstage is wide/big, the speakers disappear when playing well recorded music, they are nominally 4ohm speakers so can make good use of the 120watts per channel available from the 1120.
I have mine on heavy sand filled stands, secured using Blu-tac.
In my room after running RP with the REL sub music is sublime.
Worth a listen if you get a chance.
How do you connect the sub? Life on subwoofer?
 

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