3 problems encountered when using lyngdorf TDAI-1120

andybebbs

Active Member
Deantown I recently got a 1120 a month or so ago and really like it, My previous amp was a rega elicit-r which was also nice but the 1120 is much better in my opinion so well worth an audition if you can get one.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
I also noticed that if anyone says anything against said unit the fan boys don’t like it.
Why is it, I wonder,that this forun (avforum.com) is so prejudiced in favour of Lyngdorf? Did it start off as a Lyngdorf users forum?

If one wants unbiased opinions, it's always best to search on unbiased forums! There are plenty of other audio forums, but I've not found another (apart from the understandably biased martinlogan owners' one) that is so biased. It's still a good platform for other discussions - but best to not mention Lyngdorf or RoomPerfect!
Gents how is you both basically telling the OP he has wasted his money buying a Lyngdorf

I'm not sure anyone has said or even suggested that - we've just related our own experiences. On the other hand, keeping a piece of equipment that isn't right for one's system is never good.

I bought an expensive pair of Martin Logan speakers a couple of years ago (influenced in part by the owners' forum) only to find they didn't suit my room. Describing my problems resulted in constructive reasons for my purchase not being ideal for my room. I appreciated these comments and sold (sadly at a significant loss) these normally excellent speakers. Similarly, when looking for an ss amp to replace valve ones that I'd been using for 15 years or so, I bought several knowing that most would be resold before deciding on the best one for me. Most were bought used, so virtually no loss to me, but I'm so glad I didn't keep amps from Quad, Benchmark, Sugden, Lyngdorf, Micromega and even GamuT and Accuphase.
 
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andybebbs

Active Member
My opinion is if you fancy buying one audition first and listen in your own home if you don`t like it take it back and try something else. plenty of different amps out there to please us all. :);)
 

JW music

Standard Member
@JW music, taking it back to your original post, and assuming you want to make the 1120 work, here is what i would suggest for each of the issues:
1) noise - it’s probably the XLR to RCA cables at fault, so try a different pair or the balanced to unbalanced converter I shared (I think on another thread where you asked the same question)
2) in relation to the bass frequencies being too strong, it is possible to influence the end result of room perfect. You can add further room measurements, so try adding one with the microphone placed close (<20cm) from the rear wall and see what difference that makes. if not enough the add another close to wall measurement somewhere else in the room. This will rein the bass in a little. Do them one at a time though as you can’t take them away if you go too far. You should also experiment with the voicings. Source, amp, speakers, content - what are the chances that the way that combination sounds will be perfectly to anyone’s taste 100% of the time? That’s what the voicings are for, to tailor the sound without any deterioration. You can also try doing different RP set-ups with your speakers in slightly different positions in relation to the front wall. At least try both the position you originally had them in and close up against the front wall.
3) if that happens with some content and not others then it’s probably the content.

Hope that helps.
Your second suggestion is very enlightening to me. I plan to do another complete room perfect measurement tonight, but after seeing your suggestion, I decided to add 1 or 2 measurements close to the wall.

A few days ago, I saw a measurement instructional video recently released by Lyngdorf, which specifically mentioned that the microphone needs to be more than half a meter away from the wall, but an official instructional video earlier suggested that the measurement should be made very close to the wall. When doing RP, I chose to refer to the most recent instructional video, so I didn't take measurements very close to the wall. Now that I see your suggestion, I think it is necessary to add one or two measurements close to the wall.

Thank you so much for your help!
 
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JW music

Standard Member
I‘ve been following all the 1120 threads with an interest in buying one, but there does seem to be a fair few things that isn’t so good about them. I also noticed that if anyone says anything against said unit the fan boys don’t like it.
I’m not sure there are any products without “problems” out there.
Don't lose confidence in Lyngdorf's products.
Personally, I don't regret buying TDAI-1120. The overall effect is better than the current version of Dirac, because I have both of them and have made actual test comparison in my room.
However, Dirac has also evolved rapidly in the past two years and may catch up with RP in the future. Considering the price, NAD M10 V2 and Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 are both worth buying. If you have not been exposed to room acoustic correction products before, it is recommended to buy Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 first. At present, the completion degree of RP is higher than Dirac.
 

JW music

Standard Member
Why is it, I wonder,that this forun (avforum.com) is so prejudiced in favour of Lyngdorf? Did it start off as a Lyngdorf users forum?

If one wants unbiased opinions, it's always best to search on unbiased forums! There are plenty of other audio forums, but I've not found another (apart from the understandably biased martinlogan owners' one) that is so biased. It's still a good platform for other discussions - but best to not mention Lyngdorf or RoomPerfect!


I'm not sure anyone has said or even suggested that - we've just related our own experiences. On the other hand, keeping a piece of equipment that isn't right for one's system is never good.

I bought an expensive pair of Martin Logan speakers a couple of years ago (influenced in part by the owners' forum) only to find they didn't suit my room. Describing my problems resulted in constructive reasons for my purchase not being ideal for my room. I appreciated these comments and sold (sadly at a significant loss) these normally excellent speakers. Similarly, when looking for an ss amp to replace valve ones that I'd been using for 15 years or so, I bought several knowing that most would be resold before deciding on the best one for me. Most were bought used, so virtually no loss to me, but I'm so glad I didn't keep amps from Quad, Benchmark, Sugden, Lyngdorf, Micromega and even GamuT and Accuphase.
It can be seen that you are speaking from experience. Any opinions provided from an objective or harsh perspective are welcome and reference, because dissenting opinions help people avoid falling into the terrible situation of self-suggestion.

So thank you for your reply. I hope you can participate in the discussion more.
 
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JW music

Standard Member
My opinion is if you fancy buying one audition first and listen in your own home if you don`t like it take it back and try something else. plenty of different amps out there to please us all. :);)
Its a pity that here we have strict requirements for the return of valuables, this method is not easy to implement.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Your second suggestion is very enlightening to me. I plan to do another complete room perfect measurement tonight, but after seeing your suggestion, I decided to add 1 or 2 measurements close to the wall.

A few days ago, I saw a measurement instructional video recently released by Lyngdorf, which specifically mentioned that the microphone needs to be more than half a meter away from the wall, but an official instructional video earlier suggested that the measurement should be made very close to the wall. When doing RP, I chose to refer to the most recent instructional video, so I didn't take measurements very close to the wall. Now that I see your suggestion, I think it is necessary to add one or two measurements close to the wall.

Thank you so much for your help!
It’s interesting that the instructions for running RP do seem to change slightly over time. In the manual for my 2170 it says that when you get to 90% and have the option to add more measurements then you should add a couple less then 0.5m from the wall. However that is dropped in later guides. On the other hand the instruction to only take measurements between seated and standing ear level has been added.

I have taken the latter advice, but at 90% I now take one close to wall measurement and then listen, adding a further close to wall measurement if the bass is too strong.

Using this method I seem to get very consistent (and excellent) results. I’ve done a fair few RP setups lately as I changed my room layout, removed and added back the subs and now am trying another pair of speakers.

Good luck!
 

JW music

Standard Member
It’s interesting that the instructions for running RP do seem to change slightly over time. In the manual for my 2170 it says that when you get to 90% and have the option to add more measurements then you should add a couple less then 0.5m from the wall. However that is dropped in later guides. On the other hand the instruction to only take measurements between seated and standing ear level has been added.

I have taken the latter advice, but at 90% I now take one close to wall measurement and then listen, adding a further close to wall measurement if the bass is too strong.

Using this method I seem to get very consistent (and excellent) results. I’ve done a fair few RP setups lately as I changed my room layout, removed and added back the subs and now am trying another pair of speakers.

Good luck!
Thank you for further sharing.
A new question,Dynaudio Special Forty or B&W 705 or 707, or Monitor Audio silver 50/gold 100, which one is better?
In addition, can TDAI-1120 drive Dynaudio Special Forty well? After all, Dynaudio speakers are notoriously difficult to drive.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Thank you for further sharing.
A new question,Dynaudio Special Forty or B&W 705 or 707, or Monitor Audio silver 50/gold 100, which one is better?
In addition, can TDAI-1120 drive Dynaudio Special Forty well? After all, Dynaudio speakers are notoriously difficult to drive.
I can vouch for the S40 being great (with a 2170). There is also more than one happy owner of the 1120 using S40s, who frequent the forum.

They may be a little difficult to drive (allegedly) but the 1120 will precisely double its power into 4ohms and can deliver 30amps, so it is well equipped to drive difficult speakers.
 

andybebbs

Active Member
don`t think you will find a one speaker is better answer it`s more like what works best in your room and what sound you prefer.
 

JW music

Standard Member
I can vouch for the S40 being great (with a 2170). There is also more than one happy owner of the 1120 using S40s, who frequent the forum.

They may be a little difficult to drive (allegedly) but the 1120 will precisely double its power into 4ohms and can deliver 30amps, so it is well equipped to drive difficult speakers.
I just made an RP measurement close to the included angle of the room. After the new measurement data is added, the problem of too many low frequencies has been completely solved. The volume of -18db is high enough,the low frequency gives people a sense of texture. I am very satisfied with the overall effect. Your suggestion is really useful. Thank you very much!
 

Hear Here

Active Member
I also noticed that if anyone says anything against said unit the fan boys don’t like it.
Sad but true!
Its a pity that here we have strict requirements for the return of valuables, this method is not easy to implement.
In my search for a good SS amp to replace my valve monos, I home tested 12 different amps. Of these, I bought 6 (all but 2 were pre-owned) and borrowed from dealers another 6 including the Lyngdorf 3400. All the dealers were most helpful and most sent the amps by courier at their expense. Some I returned by courier at my expense and others I delivered back to the dealer. If a dealer is unwilling to offer an item of equipment for a home trial, find another dealer. Provided you don't have a reputation as a time waster and are genuinely intending to make a purchase, dealers will be helpful.

PS I've just noticed that the "here" you refer to is Chengdu! That sounds like China to me. I'm surprised you can't get dealers to help there, but perhaps they work on a much lower margin than dealers here.
 
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JW music

Standard Member
Sad but true!

In my search for a good SS amp to replace my valve monos, I home tested 12 different amps. Of these, I bought 6 (all but 2 were pre-owned) and borrowed from dealers another 6 including the Lyngdorf 3400. All the dealers were most helpful and most sent the amps by courier at their expense. Some I returned by courier at my expense and others I delivered back to the dealer. If a dealer is unwilling to offer an item of equipment for a home trial, find another dealer. Provided you don't have a reputation as a time waster and are genuinely intending to make a purchase, dealers will be helpful.

PS I've just noticed that the "here" you refer to is Chengdu! That sounds like China to me. I'm surprised you can't get dealers to help there, but perhaps they work on a much lower margin than dealers here.
Yes, I'm in China.

My habit is to learn the product introduction and user evaluation first, and then buy it. I won't let dealers send a lot of equipments to home for comparison, because many products can't be returned without quality problems after unpacking.

Of course, we can also go to the audio store to see the products on site, but I don't like to go to the store, because I used to go to the stores like Yamaha and Dynaudio, and found that the dealers didn't even do a good job in room acoustic decoration. For hifi products, most of the auditions they gave guests were audition discs dominated by medium and high tones, so it's difficult for you to judge the low-frequency effect of the products.
 

harkpabst

Active Member
With DSP, the sparkle factor was always slightly reduced, but also imaging isn't as precise. This is a feature that AG speakers offer in abundance and I want to retain it. It's easy enough to demonstrate if you're ever this way. Engaging DSP unavoidably requires additional signal processing and this is never o good thing if it can be avoided. Similar in this respect to tone controls, graphic equalisers and other manipulative signal processing. The old Quad adage of the ideal amp being “a straight wire with gain” still remains fundamentally viable.

I know this view is not popular on this particular (Lyngdorf supporting) forum, but I've never heard a convincing argument as to WHY some people here contradict my claim that signal processing should be avoided if possible for the reasons I've suggested.
It's well known that you keep repeating the mantra of "less processing is always better" and thus the use of DSP is "never o good thing". This is not how physics work nor human hearing. This is personal philosophy not based on any scientific ground.

Please stop drawing Peter Walker into something he never meant to say. When he made up the simplified picture of an "ideal" amp being a "wire with gain" (which indeed still hold true for the amplification portion) he did explicitly not say "the less processing, the better". Take a look at Quad's classic circuit diagrams (which are freely available now) and you will see that they contain lots of "processing" (even though analogue) components to actually make the device work like a "wire with gain" when seen from the outside as a black box.

Not to mention that the concepts of room correction and even room acoustics haven't been understood nearly as good as today back in the days of that genius. If you are very much familiar with concepts and implementation of digital signal processing (each A/D and each D/A stage means that there is digital signal processing) I am guilty of not sensing this. If you are talking from recent listening experience with 10+ amplifiers and are sure that "less sparkle" is always related to "digital signal processing" I must accept that. But it contradicts my own listening experience, so I still don't share it.

OP has not asked for philosophical enlightenment of any kind. As far as the noise problem goes I do advise to make sure to find the best combination of TDAI-1120 output volume and Tannoy GOLD 7 input sensitivity (along with chosing good cables). But generally I second the idea of getting passive speakers instead and using the analogue output for subs.
 

JW music

Standard Member
It's well known that you keep repeating the mantra of "less processing is always better" and thus the use of DSP is "never o good thing". This is not how physics work nor human hearing. This is personal philosophy not based on any scientific ground.

Please stop drawing Peter Walker into something he never meant to say. When he made up the simplified picture of an "ideal" amp being a "wire with gain" (which indeed still hold true for the amplification portion) he did explicitly not say "the less processing, the better". Take a look at Quad's classic circuit diagrams (which are freely available now) and you will see that they contain lots of "processing" (even though analogue) components to actually make the device work like a "wire with gain" when seen from the outside as a black box.

Not to mention that the concepts of room correction and even room acoustics haven't been understood nearly as good as today back in the days of that genius. If you are very much familiar with concepts and implementation of digital signal processing (each A/D and each D/A stage means that there is digital signal processing) I am guilty of not sensing this. If you are talking from recent listening experience with 10+ amplifiers and are sure that "less sparkle" is always related to "digital signal processing" I must accept that. But it contradicts my own listening experience, so I still don't share it.

OP has not asked for philosophical enlightenment of any kind. As far as the noise problem goes I do advise to make sure to find the best combination of TDAI-1120 output volume and Tannoy GOLD 7 input sensitivity (along with chosing good cables). But generally I second the idea of getting passive speakers instead and using the analogue output for subs.
Thank you for your suggestion in the last paragraph

I'm also considering replacing a pair of passive speakers
 

JW music

Standard Member
@Hear Here Well I don't think Rega RS7s are mediocre and these have been swapped out for the wife friendly option on Lyngdorf MH2/BW2 setup sited exactly as Lyngdorf recommend- also not mediocre. The biggest improvement was the huge soundstage that opened up, it was good with the Regas but the Lyngdorf speakers took it to a whole new level.

I think the people who have issues with RP not improving the sound are either unlucky that they have a room that cannot be corrected or they do not properly follow the correct setup. I have had several friends buy the 1120 and in the couple of cases that the sound was not improved when they ran RP was easily sorted by re-running RP according to Lyngdorf's instructions rather than trying to second guess and introduce their own 'improvements'.
After my measurement last night, I found you were right.

The first time I did RP measurement, I didn't know where the setting was wrong. The sound pressure of the whole system became smaller,I didn't even know it at that time. Last night, at the suggestion of dt79, I added an RP measurement and successfully solved the problem of too many low frequencies.

I'm a little perfectionist, so I'm going to do another complete RP measurement again. Unexpectedly, this new measurement let me find a system bug of TDAI-1120. Before RP sends out the measurement sound wave, there is a Pink noise test,, which is to adjust the measurement volume to meet the system requirements. I remember the first time I did this test, the system prompted me that the volume was too high and needed to be set to -38. I adjusted the volume to -38 on the app, and then click "adopt current volume immediately" to enter the formal RP measurement. After the measurement is completed, the volume needs to be turned to -15 to obtain a relatively large sound pressure. Last night, when I was measuring, the system also prompted me to adjust the volume to -38. This time, I did not choose the "adopt current volume immediately", but quit RP, set the default volume of the system itself to -38, and then enter the RP for testing. After completing the RP measurement, I found that now I only need to adjust the volume to -30, the sound pressure is already very high, and -15 has become an unacceptable high volume. The occurrence of this situation indicates that there may be a bug in the software of TDAI-1120.
 

harkpabst

Active Member
Have you updated to the most recent firmware 1.4.1 already? I don't know of anybody who has done a RP calibration with this firmware.

Normally the volume setting for convenient listening should not depend at all on the level used during RP measurements. If you run the RP guide multiple times on different occasions (with exactly the same hardware an speaker placement) the recommended level will differ, indeed. This is normal, as RP will also determine the background noise in your room.

Also - depending on how much of a change RP makes in your very room - perceived loudness may be very different with RP engaged vs. RP bypassed. But this is obviously not what you are experiencing.

In absolute terms a system recommended volume setting of -38 dB is very low for RoomPeerfect and a volume setting of -15 dB being unbearably loud is not useful. Tannoy GOLD 7 do have an input sensitivity knob on the front panel. With the amp connected but switched to standby and with your ears right up to the speaker, is there a noticeable noise and does it change when turning the input sensitivity down? You should adjust the speakers to a somewhat lower level, maybe down to the middle setting.

Next you should enter the Lyngdorf's output setting menu (routing should already be set to full range). If the level is still at 0 dB try decreasing it to something like -10 dB. You still have to try it for yourself but at least potentially these steps could optimise the total gain structure and make better use of the (digital) volume setting. Don't be afraid of output settings where you end up with a volume of -5 or even 0 dB if you want to listen really loud an something around -35 dB for background music.

This procedure should also have an impact on the numerical volume setting when running RP.

PS:
When upgrading your speakers you should definitely consider KEF's R3. Still very compact, extremely coherent and clean without sounding analytic and surprisingly capable bass extension and precision. Perfect if you don't feel adding a subwoofer right now (it looks to me like you are not too keen on doing so, but two good active subs will actually increase the overall sound quality with almost all speakers, not just provide deeper or more bass).

At least in Europe KEF R series is currently on sale with a 20% discount.
 
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JW music

Standard Member
您是否已经更新到最新的固件 1.4.1?我不知道有谁用这个固件做过 RP 校准。

通常,方便收听的音量设置不应完全取决于 RP 测量期间使用的电平。如果您在不同场合多次运行 RP 指南(使用完全相同的硬件和扬声器放置),建议的级别确实有所不同。这是正常的,因为 RP 还会确定您房间的背景噪音。

此外 - 取决于 RP 在您的房间中的变化程度 - 使用 RP 与绕过 RP 时感知的响度可能会有很大不同。但这显然不是你正在经历的。

从绝对意义上讲,系统推荐的 -38 dB 音量设置对于 RoomPeerfect 来说非常低,而 -15 dB 的音量设置到无法忍受的响亮是没有用的。Tannoy GOLD 7 在前面板上确实有一个输入灵敏度旋钮。当放大器已连接但切换到待机状态且您的耳朵紧贴扬声器时,是否有明显的噪音并且在降低输入灵敏度时是否会发生变化?您应该将扬声器调整到稍低的水平,也许调到中间设置。

接下来您应该进入 Lyngdorf 的输出设置菜单(路由应该已经设置为全范围)。如果电平仍为 0 dB,请尝试将其降低到 -10 dB 之类的值。您仍然必须亲自尝试,但至少这些步骤可能会优化总增益结构并更好地利用(数字)音量设置。如果您想听非常响亮的背景音乐 -35 dB 左右的声音,请不要害怕输出设置,最终音量为 -5 甚至 0 dB 。

运行 RP 时,此过程还应影响数值音量设置。

PS:
在升级您的扬声器时,您绝对应该考虑 KEF 的 R3。仍然非常紧凑,非常连贯和干净,没有听起来解析力和令人惊讶的低音扩展和精确度。如果您现在不觉得添加低音炮是完美的(在我看来,您似乎不太热衷于这样做,但是两个好的有源低音炮实际上会提高几乎所有扬声器的整体音质,而不仅仅是提供更深或更低音)。

至少在欧洲,KEF R 系列目前正在以 20% 的折扣出售。
After unpacking my tdai-1120, I immediately upgraded the firmware version to 1.4 1. The two RP measurements are the same firmware version, so it is not the difference of sound pressure under the same volume caused by firmware.

The only difference between the two measurements is that I did not set the default sound pressure of the system to - 38 in the first measurement, but the sound pressure at the same volume after the two measurements is very different. Judging from logic, I concluded that there may be a bug in the tdai-1120 program.

Thank you for recommending KEF R3 to me. I will add it to my list of target passive speakers.
 

lindsayt

Active Member
Please recommend a passive speaker that can be matched with tdai-1120,the budget is within 2000 pounds.
I wonder if the power of tdai-1120 can drive the floor speaker with three frequency division
Try speakers that are NOT slimline ported low efficiency designs.
Also avoid tiny, budget, low efficiency sealed box speakers.

This may well push you into going down the used / DIY route.

Speakers that are worth trying inculde:
electrostatics
panel speakers
high efficiency speakers
medium efficiency non ported speakers
open baffle speakers
semi omni-directional speakers
speakers with 12" or larger woofers

I'm reluctant to give specific recommendations for makes and models, because there are so many speakers that are worth buying - depending on what price you have to pay for them for what condition.
On the DIY front it all depends what you are happy doing or subcontracting - eg to a cabinet maker.
It also depends where you are in the world and what sort of travel habits you have. If you're in the States, or travel there, then there are loads of great sounding speakers you can get for 2000.

If when buying, it's on a sale or return basis, or at a price where you can sell on for no loss, then you're on the right track. Just use a survival of the fittest approach. If the speakers sound better than what you already have, and you're happy with the price, keep them and get rid of the old speakers.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
Please stop drawing Peter Walker into something he never meant to say. When he made up the simplified picture of an "ideal" amp being a "wire with gain" (which indeed still hold true for the amplification portion) he did explicitly not say "the less processing, the better".

Take a look at an early (Walker era) Control Unit. It had bass, treble and high level filter controls (as did all preamps at the time) but he included a "Cancel" switch that bypassed all these layers of processing in his attempt to follow the "straight wire with gain" philosophy. This was surely one of the reasons for Acoustical's hugh success as arguably the finest gear available at the time. Certainly times have changed, but the theory still applies - the less processing the better for ultimate fidelity.

Quad 22.jpg
 

JW music

Standard Member
Try speakers that are NOT slimline ported low efficiency designs.
Also avoid tiny, budget, low efficiency sealed box speakers.

This may well push you into going down the used / DIY route.

Speakers that are worth trying inculde:
electrostatics
panel speakers
high efficiency speakers
medium efficiency non ported speakers
open baffle speakers
semi omni-directional speakers
speakers with 12" or larger woofers

I'm reluctant to give specific recommendations for makes and models, because there are so many speakers that are worth buying - depending on what price you have to pay for them for what condition.
On the DIY front it all depends what you are happy doing or subcontracting - eg to a cabinet maker.
It also depends where you are in the world and what sort of travel habits you have. If you're in the States, or travel there, then there are loads of great sounding speakers you can get for 2000.

If when buying, it's on a sale or return basis, or at a price where you can sell on for no loss, then you're on the right track. Just use a survival of the fittest approach. If the speakers sound better than what you already have, and you're happy with the price, keep them and get rid of the old speakers.
Thank you for your suggestion, but I don't consider entering the world of DIY. That field requires a lot of knowledge reserve and time, and it may not save money in the future.

I still consider buying those ready-made brand speakers with good evaluation. Generally, there will be no big problems when using those speakers.
 

lindsayt

Active Member
Refoaming the surrounds on woofers takes about as much skill and time as repairing punctures on the front and back tyres of a bicycle.

With DIY on speakers, it all depends what DIY you're doing as to how long it takes and how complex it is.

If you wouldn't be comfortable repairing bicycle punctures then going down the used fully working route is the one that will offer the best sound for your money.
When it comes to used speakers, there is no almost no correlation between price and sound quality.
 

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