3 Days Appeal

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by DrWise, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. DrWise

    DrWise
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    Okay, One of my best mates, has been dismissed from work due to a major offence, which was he had a major car accident, but due to being unable to contact the work place or nothing, all he done was bed rest, and he recieved a letter saying hes been dismissed and he has 3 days to Appeal, What could he do or say in the appeal as he is still not 100%,it is coming upto 2 and a half months hes been off work. he sent all his sick notes to his place of work but they werent always on time due to some hiccups within the work place, any help would be appreciated :lease:
     
  2. Sporran

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    be honest with them, employers arent all bad :)

    Though i could understand why they are peeved
     
  3. gulliver dark

    gulliver dark
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    Yep. Tell his employer what you've just told us, is what I would advise.
     
  4. DrWise

    DrWise
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    Okay he understands the company would be peeved due to the no contact issue, the thing is he recieved letters and phone calls but wasn't able to return anything due to his condition, the other day he had an appointment with the work g.p, but he couldnt attend that because he picked up that hospital bug thats been going around, and due to that hes been dismissed, should he get in touch with the Work Union before he contacts the place of work?
     
  5. gulliver dark

    gulliver dark
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    Serious injuries and then hospital bug - understandably difficult, impossible even, to contact work.

    But they don't know what's going on if no-one tells them.

    But allright, you're not asking us to judge the situation, you're asking for advice.

    Contact the Union - yes, why not? Perhaps better to ask their advice than ours.

    And contact the employer as well - contact everybody. It's lack of contact that's been the problem. Better late than never; hopefully the employer will be understanding.
     
  6. shodan

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    Don't his work has some obligation to him? I know if I went AWOL someone would do a home visit on me, not just send me a letter telling me not to come back. What if he had died and his widow recieved and opened the letter? Bloody unprofessional and inconsiderate of them. Plus as you say he has been sending his sick notes in but he is being punished for his work not being able to handle their own internal post properly! For sure, he is better off not working there, but I wouldn't let them get away with sacking me!
     
  7. DrWise

    DrWise
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    yeah they are supposed to do a home visit within the first week of sick, but they didnt with him, as someone is always avaliable at his house day and night, you know if he saw the car you'd be shocked at how he survived it, to me his health is more important than his job, he was working with a well established organisation, so would have expected better, but unfortunatley they just sent him letters on letters and gave him 2 calls both times speaking to his sibling as he was in bed and couldnt contact them back, the thing is the appeal should he just write a letter to them or call them, or go ask the union first, im sorry for bothering you guys like this, but he is stressed out to the core, as his income was the only one providing his family
     
  8. shodan

    shodan
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    My advice would be to put a phone call into the union rep straight away.
     
  9. gulliver dark

    gulliver dark
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    The problem has been lack of communication, compounded by the firm failing to make a home visit and losing the sick-notes, and the machinery of dismissal has been put into action.

    Tell him to contact the union and the firm urgently and tell them what you've told us.
     
  10. DrWise

    DrWise
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    Yeah hes starting the process tomorrow you know what i mean
    The company ****** up on there part, my mate kind of did mess up on his part, but when they say they made a house visit is a lie, because ive stayed with him a few nights too just too make sure hes coping okay, ima tell him if they do dismiss him go to the court of law, as there is no way any firm could get rid of him, they should take into account health is more important but guess not *****. one thing is the firm knew about the car accident, and he spoke to the firm gp a few weeks after, he was praying he'd be better, but headaches got worse, and made it difficult for him to communicate, hes only regained like 70% of his health, hes still some time away from 100% but he should be able to get rehab if his appeal is successful
    He has also told me he was sending the sick notes through a collegue, and he missed a few weeks to go see the g.p due to not being able to get up from bed, and the manager who has been contacting him believes he wasnt even in the country
     
  11. funkyspider

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    Contact the local Citizens Advice Bureau, they will be able to advise.

    Why hasn't he sought legal advise so far ?

    If he is unable to work due to his current condition then the doctor should have signed him off for long term sick - they usually do a month at a time. How long has he worked there and what does it say in his contract about absenteeism - which is effectively what the company will be treating it as without the correct documentation from the doctors.


    http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox
     
  12. DrWise

    DrWise
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    The reason he hasnt contacted anyone is because he has been to ill
    all hes managed to do is roll out of bed and go doctors
    thats it, hes been there for 3 years or so
    hes only managed to get slightly okay in the last few days but still not 100% and today he recieved a letter saying hes dismissed, prior to that he had 3 letters, but due to family drama with him he was unable to see the letters, it took a week or 2 too finally see the letters
     
  13. unique

    unique
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    if he's a member of a union, he should get in touch with them straight away (ie. tomorrow morning). they should be able to take his case up on his behalf

    if not, or in addition to that, he can contact ACAS who are used to dealing with issues like this and give free advise. they will probably be more helpful than CAB, but he can also try them

    without knowing the full facts, and what the terms and conditions of his employment are, in particular the sickness/absence procedures, any other suggestions are based on guesswork and presumptions

    in saying that, it sounds like the companies procedures aren't particularly great. i'm guessing this is a small to medium size company who isn't used to handling situations like this.

    whilst there is no hard set rule as to the right thing to do, there are a number of recomendations that if followed by the company should protect it against losing an employment tribunal. unless a there are important parts of the story missing, it seems they aren't following particularly good practice

    in order to dismiss someone, the company should follow a formal disciplinary procedure. this should detail the steps that should be taken, and should give some examples of gross dismissal.

    i presume that the employee has been dismissed for failing to follow the companies absence procedures by failing to notify the company within the required timeframes

    normally it's suggested that in the case of a disciplinary offence, it's initially dealt with in an informal way, or if it should be a formal disciplinary, the employee should be given a written request to attend a formal disciplinary hearing and given details of the complaint. this meeting can go ahead even if the employee doesn not attend, although it's the fairness of handling a case that has an affect on a tribunal hearing. normally you would expect the first case of an offence to result in a formal verbal or first written warning, and the employee asked to avoid this behavoir for a period of say 3 months, but if they are found guilty of the same offence in another hearing, it would normally become a first or second/last written warning, and after then the employee could be dismissed for exhausting the companies disciplinary procedures (ie. not dismissed for the specific offence). following these steps would normally take a few weeks. it sounds like the company may have jumped straight to dealing with the case as gross misconduct, in which case they don't need to give first or second warnings first.

    it's up to the company what they deem gross misconduct, but if it's not deemed fair by a tribunal, they can rule against the employer. it's very unusual for a gross misconduct case to take place without any input or attendance from the employee as the employer is risking a complaint of unfair practice by a tribunal, particularly if the offense is non attendance or failing to follow an absence procedure

    the company should also allow at least 7 days for an appeal that leads to dismissal. the less fair the companies practices, the higher the chance they will lose in a tribunal

    if the employee is dismissed and the appeal doesn't overturn the ruling, the employee has the right to take the employer to a tribunal for unfair or illegal dismissal, and ACAS would be involved before the tribunal takes place. unless there is something important thats not been advised, i would imagine the tribunal wouldn't think favourably of the employers actions in dealing with a long term employee who has been unable to attend work due to a severe accident

    a few things spring to mind. the employer isn't required by law to make home visits, but it may be detailed in the procedures, so it's not the employers responsibility to chase the employee, it's up to the employee to notify the employer. if the employee has been submitting medical certificates, then the employer is aware of the employees situation, thus dismissing the employee whilst off sick is not going to be thought of highly in a tribunal. what i'm wondering, is why didn't a member of his family contact his employer to make them aware that he was involved in an accident, and not able to attend work? that would normally be sufficient to cover most absence procedures, unless they specifically state the employee must contact them directly, in which case it again may be deemed an unfair practice if the employee is not in a position to be able to follow them due to illness, and after being notified of the situation you mention, i would expect the employer to treat the case more reasonably, which makes me wonder what part of the story is missing that hasn't been told, as it sounds like there is more to it than the employee being dismissed for not notifying them on time of the reasons for not being able to attend work
     
  14. ianlecompte

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    Hi Wiser1, some of this is just not adding up. You say that your friend was to ill to contact anyone, yet was able to get out of bed and go and see the doctor! Is this doctor his own g.p or the company one by the way? Surely if he can manage that he could easily pick up the phone to speak to his employer, or go and see them in person to explain what is going on. As someone rightfully mentioned in an earlier post, if he has seen his g.p then why wasn't he signed off for a longer period (if he had suffered bad injuries). What about copies of the hospital records when he was admitted to the a&e dept? these could maybe help his cause as proof of injuries sustained and subsequent follow up treatment.
    It sounds to me as if your friend could'nt be arsed to do the sensible thing for one reason or other, and is now facing the consequences. If i were you i'd let him get on with it. As others have said tell him to contact the citizens advice and see what they say. As you said yourself, our health is worth so much more than a job so glad to hear hes on the mend, thats good news. Hope it all works out for him. If i have misunderstood any of this, my apologies.
    Cheers
    Ian
     
  15. Mr.D

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    Totally. Stinks to high heaven.
     
  16. Londondecca

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    My first suggestion is to immediately contact the company to lodge the appeal. Normally this is done in writing, the appeal letter does not need to go into detail, a couple of lines is sufficient. Send the letter by registered mail or get someone to deliver it by hand.

    Then contact CAB/ACAS and the local Union rep. Based upon what has been described here, this problem should be resolvable.

    Do not delay in responding or the situation will probably deteriorate. At this stage I would not worry about the statutory procedures or who has done what. Get the appeals letter in before the (rather strict) deadline and this will then give some space for both sides to consider what has happened and how to resolve it.
     
  17. DrWise

    DrWise
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    okay yeah he has stated just recieved a text from him, that he was contacted at home, but was unwell to get back, the employer said that he has to contact them, the company did know he had the accident as a work manager came to see him in hospital, and said to him dont rush back to work get 100% before anything, but than another manager from the same company kept pestering him with a number of letters 3 i think or did he say 4, not to sure, he did manage to see his g.p as i was the one who took him there each time he was signed off for 4 weeks each time, although his sick notes werent always given on time, due to his doctor not being at the practice or his work collegue picked it up late, he was looking to start work again this week as he was feeling slightly better but not 100%, and just as he told me that, the next day he recieved the dismissal letter, and also the manager who sent letters and phoned his house also put him under unauthorised absence!!!!! why im not sure. he sent a letter last week stating he'd be back to work in the next couple of weeks, but now hes stressing and hearing it from his family, to be honest if you saw the guy when i took him to the g.p its like a minute away but he'd get major headaches and migranes, he works for the royal mail, hes been a employee for just under 3 and a half years, are there any websites for the acas
     
  18. ianlecompte

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    Well it sounds as though he has a good chance of fighting his corner. If only he spoke to the right person in the first place. Maybe the guy pestering him with the letters was the boss rather than a lower level employee (the guy who saw him in hospital, and told him to not rush back). Anyway it does sound rather unfair. Good luck with it all.
    Cheers
    Ian
     
  19. unique

    unique
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    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/DG_10010857


    the acas website seems to be acting up, but that's the details

    if the employer is the royal mail, then what you've said doesn't add up, as i wouldn't expect such a large employer to act in the way that is described. perhaps you're friend is mistaken or hasn't explained properly.

    if he was sent 3 or 4 letters, why didn't he respond to them sooner?

    i suggest he calls ACAS in the morning for advice before he makes any further contact with his employer, and he should also contact his union representative if he has one, preferably before he gets back in touch with his employer, but ensuring he reaches the deadline. from what you have said, i get the impression he is well enough to attend work, so he could hand the letter in person (i wouldn' trust the royal mail to deliver anything important on time, it's workers are a right dodgy bunch :D )
     
  20. DrWise

    DrWise
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    he was unable to respond to the letters, as he recieved them from his family a lil too late, and last friday he was required to go to a hearing with the manager who was pestering him at 6am and also go to the work gp at another time, but was unable to due to sleeping problems from his on going headaches and the hospital bug, but he sent a letter saying he'd be at work in the next couple of weeks, but because he failed to respond to the letters due to being unwell it came down to this for him, i just wish i could fight his corner, it infuriates me how a large organisation could do something so petty, his car when i saw it, looked like a coke can it was like half the size of what it should have been, do you think he should provide pictures of what he survived? the dismissal was done without notice, and he is not allowed on site
     
  21. ianlecompte

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    Not allowed on site?, whats he been up to?
    This is starting to smell fishy again.
    Cheers
    Ian
     
  22. DrWise

    DrWise
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    when i say not allowed on site i mean on the premises
    And they have deactivated his i.d and asked him to return uniform
    yet they said he can appeal
    hes not been upto anything just Multiple injures stopping him from working
     
  23. Squiffy

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    From what I've read so far, the employer has not been unreasonable.

    He didn't notify the employer of the accident. He didn't get sick notes in on time. He didn't respond to letters from the employer.

    I'm not sure on what basis he is going to appeal, he is clearly in breach. IMHO his best tactic would be to appeal to their better nature. I'm dubious that any formal appeal based on the employer not following the rules to dismiss this guy would work. (But I am not legally trained, so this is not advice).

    I understand and sympathise that this guy was very ill. Nevertheless, he is required to follow the rules when off sick. It is not the fault of the employer that he didn't.
     
  24. DrWise

    DrWise
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    The employer was aware of the accident the day it occured
    i took him to the g.p 2wice once out of hospital just to tell the g.p whats wrong, the other times his sick notes were picked up by his family members and i took him again last week, i know he can win the appeal if done the right way. its not a lost cause for sure, but yeah i agree he should have contacted the employer but if aint able too what do you expect, he just text me if he loses the appeal he might commit suicide as he wont be able to get a job anywhere as he was serving for royal mail which is part of her majestys. i dont even know how to reassure the lad :( dont know why i told you guys that but..................
     
  25. Jay

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    The one thing I'm confused about is the fact that if your friend was in such a bad way and suffered terrible injuries then surely he'll have proof.

    If I'm in a terrible car crash tomorrow and sustain serious injuries and my gfriend calls my employer there won't be a problem, as there will be a record of me being at the hospital and I'll be able to provide proof of my injuries.

    It seems quite simple really, he hasn't made any contact, so his employer had no idea what was going on.

    Why didn't a member of his family or a friend notify his work immediately if he was unable to contact his employer?

    Once his employer was notified it would just be a case of keeping them updated with his condition.

    It's sad that your friend is in a bad way and now contemplating suicide, but it from reading this thread it seems as though he has caused the situation to become the way it is today.

    edit:I'm confused about the specifics regarding what contact was made with the employer.

    Contact was made the day the accident happened yes?

    Then what happened with regards to contact and over what period of time?

    re-edit:after re-reading the thread the vibe I'm getting is that your friend was involved in an accident, the employer was contacted and everything was fine, and the problem started when your friend was off for a long time and then failed to make contact to his employer for whatever reason and it has now blown up in his face.

    I think the way it stands now is that your friend has to have a good enough reason as to why he didn't follow the correct procedure when absent from work.
     
  26. DrWise

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    okay im aware he should have contacted his employer over the period, but he wasnt up to it as he was out of all sorts, the manager was persistent that he speak to the employee for that matter my best mate, and not any of his family members, once he did get better, he sent a letter informing them of the situation, but it was too late as he recieved this dismissal letter
     
  27. Jay

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    I understand what you mean, but I can't think of a good enough reason why he couldn't make a phone call to his employer. Unless he can provide a good enough reason as to why he couldn't make contact it doesn't look good unfortunately.
     
  28. gulliver dark

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    Seems he's been in such a bad way with the headaches and migraines that he's been incapable of dealing with the situation.
     
  29. unique

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    what were the 4 letters that were sent to him? were they requests to attend a formal disciplinary hearing to answer allegations of failing to following the companies absence procedure, and advising that the outcome of the meeting could result in a formal warning which could lead to dismissal?

    how long was he off for, and when did he actually get the letters, and from then, when did he get in touch with his employer to respond to the letters?

    if the employer was notified on the first day that he was hospitalised as result of a car crash, it sounds like they have either went OTT or there is something else missing from the story

    what a tribunal is concerned with is not necesarily the decision made to dismiss an employee, but that the correct procedures were followed fairly. whilst a procedure could clearly state that an employee must contact on day one personally, and no-one else can contact on their behalf, and it could be deemed gross dismissal, etc, a tribunal may decide that there are circumstances in which the employer was unreasonable in handling the case, and rule in favour of the employee. the actions of the employee will also have a bearing on the case

    thus the procedure could be very tight and harsh and the employee clearly didn't follow them, but the court could decide that the employee was not able to follow those procedures and the decision made by the employer was therefore unfair and unreasonable. if the tribunal felt the employee hadn't made sufficient effort when he was able to do so, the award could be reduced as a result

    so whilst a procedure may be clearly broken, and the employer follows the procedure to the letter, it can still be ruled as unfair

    if he speaks to ACAS he can tell them the full story in confidence, and be open and honest and they can give him advice on how to proceed. i would perhaps call them first, and then a union rep, and then the employer (ie. do it all this morning)
     
  30. DrWise

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    2 of the 4 letters were about contact being made with the employee, and why he wasnt in contact, the other 1 was a disiplinary hearing, the 4th the dismissal letter, how would he take the case through tribunal if they dont overturn the appeal? he replied to them once the headaches got slightly better which was last week i think he said, hes been off since november 07
     

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