3:2 puldown versus PAL pitch speedup

Goose74

Active Member
Hi guys

just wondered what the consensus of opinion is on the advantages / disadvantages of region 1 (with 3:2 pulldown) over PAL with its 25fps speed up.

In terms of picture quality what are the side effects of 3:2?

Is PAL better quality picture because it is higher resolution?

Sorry about these naive newbie questions!

Cheers
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
No easy answers. 3:2 pulldown isn't as visible as many suggest (IMHO). However, to be fair, I am using a Sony VW10HT driven by a progrsssive component signal from a Pioneer 737. I've got no idea whether this system removes 3:2 pulldown but I never, no, not ever, notice any intrusive jerkiness in movement.

Equally, I don't notice the 4% PAL speedup. EXCEPT if I happen to watch the same film on NTSC and PAL back to back ie. an A/B comparison. OR watch a PAL movie with some music in it that I am VERY familiar with on CD.

So, like the reviewers on dvdcompare and michaeldvd, I NEVER consider PAL or NTSC as a factor when choosing which version to buy except - I buy NTSC if all other things are equal, because I can get progressive scan with NTSC and not with PAL with my current setup. My next DVD player will probably do both, at which point I will cease considering PAL/NTSC at all.
 
E

European

Guest
...and now for my next question: which is better? DD or dts?...

(...grabs hat and runs from room...)

. . . :D . . .
 

Goose74

Active Member
I have never really been bothered about the PAL speed up either until recently.

I saw LOTR in the theatre a few times and when I got the DVD I noticed the difference (subtle speed changes can be notced on scenes such as the Glow in Aragorns eyes from his pipe in the "Pony")

This brought it to my attention.
I am consequently getting the LOTR Extended edition on region 1 and since you can watch them with p scan (updating my setup soon) it seems to win the case.

However, am I right in thinking that transfers can vary from region to region? - I read a review of Ocean's 11 recently which said that the transfer / picture quality was better on region 2.

(sod it - I think I'll get both just to compare!)

cheers
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Ringer
However, am I right in thinking that transfers can vary from region to region? - I read a review of Ocean's 11 recently which said that the transfer / picture quality was better on region 2.
Yes. More likely to arise when the regions in question have different TV standards. eg: R1 and R2 (Japan) are both NTSC and may be cut from the same master. R2 (Europe) and R4 (Australia) are both PAL - ditto.

Whereas - R2 (Europe) is more likely to differ to R2 (Japan) or R1 because of different masters.

You really can only find out for sure by either checking out review sites, or trying for yourself.
 

Goose74

Active Member
Thanks nigel

just one final newbie question.

When I play a DVD on my PC (power DVD using hardware acceleration)

is the DVd played back with progressive scan?

Cheers
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Not sure, but I think so. PC Monitors are normally driven progressively so I doubt very much that playing a DVD on one would magically switch it to interlaced.

In terms of motion judder - it is possible (though I don't know how likely) that the difference between the rate at which the frames come off the DVD (30/sec for NTSC, 25/sec for PAL) and the refresh rate of your monitor will give rise to some judder of its own. Ideally, you'd run the monitor at an exact multiple of the frame rate of the disc. eg for a PAL disc, run it at 75hz; for an NTSC one, run it at 60hz (or 90 if it's supported).
 

Goose74

Active Member
That is really intersting about the refresh rate - I didnt't think of that.

I normally have my monitor at 75 hertz anyway and I have mostly PAL DVD's

But when I play a region 1 disc I will change the rate and check.

I cannot use 90 hertz at 1152 (60 hertz gives me a headache!) so I will have to bring my desktop down to 1024 to try it

cheers
 

MartinImber

Active Member
I find 3:2 pulldown very irritating!

I have seen both R1 and R2 Galaxy quest and R2 was smoother!

I have ONE NTSC disc!
 
E

European

Guest
Originally posted by MartinImber
I find 3:2 pulldown very irritating!

I have seen both R1 and R2 Galaxy quest and R2 was smoother!

I have ONE NTSC disc!

I find 3:2 pulldown not irritating at all!

I have seen both R1 and R2 Eyes wide shut and - except for the digitally blocked-out bits on the US release - both looked just about the same: very, very good... I didn't/don't like this movie at all, though, so I was grateful that the R2 version was 'shorter' by a few minutes thanks to the 25fps speedup inherent in the PAL system.

I have literally HUNDREDS of NTSC discs! Not just R1/USA and R1/Canada, but also R2/Japan, R0/Hong Kong and R3/Hong Kong, and R3/Korea!

...and so it goes...

. . . :p . . .
 

James45

Standard Member
Originally posted by MartinImber
I find 3:2 pulldown very irritating!

I have seen both R1 and R2 Galaxy quest and R2 was smoother!

I have ONE NTSC disc!

yea but the noise drop out on the R2 was much more irritating
 

MartinImber

Active Member
What noise drop out?
 

James45

Standard Member
there's supposed to be a horrible noise drop out of the DD track during the sci-fi convention at the start
 

richard plumb

Distinguished Member
Do any DVD players, or software players for PCs remove the 3:2 pulldown and/or correct for the 4% pitch.

i.e. Whatever you feed it (NTSC/PAL), it outputs at a multiple of 24fps (presumably 72fps for PC).

It seems odd that progressive NTSC DVD players seem to remove the 3:2 pulldown to deinterlace etc, then add it in again due to the frame rate of the destination device (60Hz).

So instead of some of the PAL progressive players converting to NTSC, I'd rather have them convert NTSC to PAL (50Hz) progressive. (although there would probably need to be some scaling done due to the different resolutions)
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
The 3:2 sequencing on NTSC discs is there to create 60 fields from 48 interlaced fields (24 frames). 2:3 DETECTION in a progressive DVD/PC/Scaler recognises the relation ship of each FIELD and then puts the two that belong together back as ONE FRAME, thus creating the original 24 film frames.

However, for NTSC you still need 60 FIELDS a second. So the 2:3 sequence in put in place again excpet this time it's with FRAMES instead of interlaced FIELDS. So you still get judder on pans with progressive.

To remove the 2:3 cadence you need to refresh at multiples of 24 frames. This would create 2:2 SEQUENCE/48Hz, 3:3 Sequence/72Hz, 4:4 sequence 96Hz or 5:5 sequence at 120Hz.

120Hz is interesting as it's the first refresh rate that is suitable for both film and video being a multiple of 24 AND 60!

Gordon
 

iwilson

Standard Member
Here's a question that's bugged me for a while.

A lot of people complain about the 4% speedup and never buy PAL discs as a result.

But aren't all the movies we watch on TV also suffering from the same problem? If so why don't we hear any complaints?

Or is it a case don't point out the problem that way I won't notice it?

Ian
 
E

European

Guest
...well... hundreds of millions of people in PAL countries around the world have been happily watching movies on TV for the past c. 50 years without complaining about c. 4% speedup --- just as hundreds of millions of people in NTSC countries around the world have been happily watching movies on TV for at least the same number of years without complaining about 3-2 pulldown jitter...

...which proves something or other, I guess...

(signed) Happy Tin-Eared Myopic TV, VHS, LD And DVD Watcher

. . . :cool: . . .
 

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