2nd Subwoofer

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Lowrider, Aug 27, 2001.

  1. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Hi,

    I am considering to add a 2nd REL Strata III to my system, should I connect both with a Y to the LFE output of my AV32R ? Any suggestions on the connection ? Will it make a big difference ?

    Thanks,
     
  2. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    The Y splitter works very well with dual sub. It is what I settled on as my prefered method and it is simple to implement. The AV32R drives it with ease. It works well and is easy to implement. No brainer?
     
  3. Lowrider

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    Thanks Nic,

    Now, will I get half the output level to each sub, and so should keep the same volume settings I use now for both subs, or not <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
     
  4. Arthur.S

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    I set each of my subs to 5db over reference. Which is exactly the same as when I only had 1 sub. seems to work well. In theory, I should have twice the sub volume, but somehow doestn't seem to work like that. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
     
  5. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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  6. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    It works!
     
  7. Lowrider

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    I got the second REL this weekend, and I will tell you the wife´s comments on the resulting sound: "it fills the room better and the bass has more defenition"... Do I need to say more ?

    I did increase a bit the level on the subs...
     
  8. Lowrider

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    I used a sound pressure meter last night and I have two question:

    First, (this I had detected by ear), even though the surround speakers are the same as the front, use the same amp and same distance from sitting, (12 feet), I need 3 db more to read the same as the front, could it be because the connect cable is 12 meters instead of 4 meters for the front ?

    Second, all the speakers read almost 80 db with the calibration noise, except the subwoofers that read a little over 60 db; I increased 15 db on the setup, and the reading hardly changed, could it be that the meter is not very sensitive to low frequencies ?
     
  9. Lowrider

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    Well, I replaced the surround speakers wire with Cable talk 3.1 and now they sound about the same as the front, as they should, its the same speakers and stands...
     
  10. General Skanky

    General Skanky
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    Lowrider,

    How's the set up now? Does the other half prefer it? How is it all positioned now in relation to everything else?
    I ask as I 'hope' to have two subs in my room. I've already convinced the wife it'll be ok!;) So I'm now going through all the old posts and searching sites for info. But you are proabably the best person to ask as it's real life.:)

    To Nic and one or two others who may be reading; in the past I was going DIY, buy the Servo combi etc, but space, funds, fear for my life, (2 x Servo) has prevented it. I hope to do it one way or another sticking to my REL type of sub. I'll attach some more photos to my set up so you can see where I hope to plonk two subs, either across the front next to each Q35 or as is with one sub behind our chairs! But whatever, I'm after overall opinion of long term users of two subs, NOT! one super duper big boy. Nic.:D
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    :( I'm hurt. I have done my best to get top performance in a small box for everyone.
     
  12. General Skanky

    General Skanky
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    I just knew you'd read this one!:)

    You know I'm joking of course mate? I know you are.;)

    Since you are here, what are your opinions?

    I'm just about to upload a couple of photos to my links. So I'll look back in a minute or two.
     
  13. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    General S

    I was frankly amazed at how much better two subs can be than one. If you have the perfect, dedicate AV room, one is probably fine. Then it gives this wonderfully flat bass response. However most of us in the real world have our kit, with the approval (or not in case of dual Servo15s!), of her in doors, in the front room. Here, in this situation, I think two subs works really well. The rooms have more nodes and troughs than most. If I didn't have my Servos I would certainly use dual subs (probably Rel St range as I have the Storm already).

    I think that two small Richer Sounds baby (Paradigm or similar) subs could make a killer budget set up, but few seem want to go this route. I think it worth pursuing, especially at RS prices. Two Q BASS subs will be brilliant IMHO. Speak to Uncle Eric.

    With dual subs It doesn't go deeper per se, it isn't necessarily 'superior' in the conventional sense. It just makes every thing that much easier. You should be able to get an additional 6dB output, or put another way at your normal listening levels the sub has to work that much less (thus giving low distortion etc). It is sooo much easier flattening out room 'humps' as well.

    Do you need dual subs is the first question you need to ask. Yes is the answer if you have nodes and troughs. Liam (Imacauley) posted in the last couple of days of the results of his room analysis, it is not difficult to do. If you can throw a multi meter at your projector, this will be a doddle. If you need sound meters, let me know, I post a colletion down!. It might be worth doing first to see 'where you are'. Worth doing with the sub in several locations as well to see how bad things get. This will show what you have if you have problems then dual is certainly my prefered solution to 'ease' many of these problems.

    Best place to initially site a single sub is where you listen from. Then wander round the room with the meter, checking for peaks and troughs. Find a good peak area, then swap the sub position for your own. It is a good way to start the sub positioning initially.

    If it is still a bit 'iffy', dual subs are the way to go. Luckily for you a second Q bass shouldn't be too bad to get on this forum.

     
  14. General Skanky

    General Skanky
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    I learnt simple and quick lessons in the past about subs courtesy of a Mr. Duncan Wardle, (still haven't eaten my hat) by using the line out feed rather than the high level option. The sound was better. A basic example.

    I've followed al the gumpf about subs and know that two would (should) be better than one, not more bassy but as mentioned, smoother, easier etc. That's what I'm after. I'm interested in Lowrider's opinion, or more correctly what his wife now thinks in the long run. She'll probably be the harshest critic but the most honest and accurate!:rolleyes:

    Whatever happens, it will be fun finding out, that's for sure.

    I did follow your comments Eric about the REL Q range vrs. newer models. Very interesting indeed. It gives creedence to my own beliefs that my Q bass if not treated with respect can 'go mental' if let loose too much.:D You would have thought that the new big boys in town would have blown it out of the water. Seems not. Good for me. So if I had two set up right it should give many a 'superior' model some competition.

    I was reading earlier Adam Rayner's findings in an old HCC issue when he tested two Q50's against one Velodyne sub. OK, Velodyne went the deepest and all that, but the two Q50's gave it a run for its money. Yes if I spent more and bought into the ST range I'd get far better, but if what I hope happens in trying to acquire a 2nd Q bass, I'll have leapt into another league of quality, and that's what it's all about.

    When it comes to wether it was worth it or not, I find I can only decide by doing things in reverse. Can be a gamble. for example, I listen to a TV programme in pro logic and then go to stereo, instantly I can hear the difference. but if I had stereo then went pro logic, the gain wouldn't 'seem' as dramatic. the same will be with the subs. Until I've lived with two and then take one out, I won't be able to easily discern the difference. I just find it easier to hear what is missing than what has been added. I suppose it prevents me listnening too hard for something trying to convince myself it is better. This method is tried and tested, proven to work. My sub shut down a few of years back without me noticing. We twigged when we noticed the sound was somewhat lacking. As soon as we had the sub back up and running, we realised what we were missing. I expect the same end result from two subs.

    Ok enough ramble, too late to check its relevance aswell.

    Have fun moving Nic. I have a mental pictue of tons of HiFi/AV gear going and about one suitcase of clothes forthe whole family.:D
     
  15. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    The spreadsheet I got off the 'net had some notes about how the Tandy SPL is less sensitive at low frequencies. To get the correct results you have to add the following db values:

    Hz db
    -- --------
    16 +11.5
    18 +8
    20 +7.5
    22 +6.5
    25 +5
    28 +4
    31.5 +3
    36 +2.5
    40 +2.5
    45 +2
    50 +1.5
    56 +1.5
    63 +1.5
    71 +1.5
    80 +1.5
    89 +1.5
    100 +2
    111 +1
    125 +0.5
    142.5 +0.5
    160 +0.5

    I calibrated all my speakers to 75db without thinking about these adjustments and the bass sounded much too loud. After a day of listening to stuff and measuring, I've dropped the sub level down to 68db (i.e. 7db lower than the rest) by the meter. I don't know exactly what frequencies are played in the sub test tones on my amp, but a 7db adjustment doesn't sound unreasonable.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  16. starlight

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    see:
    "Ecclesiastes 4: 9 - 12"
    rgds
     
  17. Orbital

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    Nic,

    I'm very interested in the point you made about using two of the cheaper RS Paradigm sub's as I already have one PDR-10 and was considering buying another to do just that. I've listened to the REL's and yes they are excellent sub's but as I have a lot going on "house wise" at the moment £500 is pretty much out of the question.

    The other thing is that I really do quite like my PDR-10 :D I know it's not a REL but it really does do the business is my cinema room and just needs that extra bit of oomph to make it even better. The fact that the price of the PDR-10 has gone down to £119.99 from £149.99 has made me even more tempted, what do you think? Worth a tipple?

    Cheers

    Dave
     
  18. dts_boy

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    i had an m&k vx100 and in my BIG new lounge, it wasn't enough. i looked at getting two but when i loaned a second, wasn't all that impressed. i don't know if i had set them up all that well or summat but i decided, sorry, the wife decided that a bigger new sub was the answer. i listened to the mx350 which was great fun but ended up going for a monitor audio fb212 as the wife thought the real wood looked nicer (and it didn't sound too shabby either :D ). i have found that the two 12" drivers are more than enough and am now happy:p
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Right we have two things here:

    1. If you have ‘lumpy’ bass (actually most of us do if you analyse it), you are near the maximum of your current subs capability then two subs are a great way forward for you. Personally I like them set up next to the main L and R speakers facing forward. I have had decent results with one at the front of the room and one at the back (with phase adjustments).

    2. If you want more (read much deeper bass) then a bigger sub is the way forward

    3. If you want more bass and to flatten out bass response you need two big subs! :D

    I think those of you who are after a better quality of sound (not necessarily much deeper), then a second sub is well worth pursuing. I haven’t tried the Paradigm baby in a dual configuration but it is a lovely cute size (wife friendly) with a decent performance. £120 they are good value. With the Richer sounds returns policy it is well worth trying, if you don’t get on with it, just return to Richer Sounds. Other subs I say would be worth experimenting with are Q Bass, Q50, Q100. Possible even the new 200 series but that is getting serious money and I would rather ‘increase’ the size of my sub here for this money (ST range).

    It also has the added advantage of not ‘ditching’ your investment on the first sub either. Something I like. Now I would rather have two slightly lesser (and smaller) subs than one huge one. Of course two huge ones is the way forward! Dual subs works really well for some people, less well for others (the lucky ones with non lumpy bass).

    Just out of interest, when I bought my REL Storm the plan was to add a second after a few years and then have the REL upgrade on the Storm (£700 to a £950 one). This is how they were sold to me. Now by the time I went to upgrade to a second sub, they had stopped the Storm (gone to Storm 111). I inquired about the ‘upgrade’ and was told by REL it wasn’t worth bothering with. :mad: I wasn’t too happy. This was the reason I had picked REL over M and K baby sub I also liked at the time (700?).
     
  20. Orbital

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    Right! I think a visit to Mr Richer is in order :D Thanks for the advice nick. I'll let you know how it goes.

    Cheers

    Dave
     
  21. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Just a small point - the Richer returns policy is to give you credit, not cash refund. That's what basically stopped me going for the Servo15.

    I agree with all the rest of Nic's points, though.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  22. Lowrider

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    Sorry I didn´t answer before, but weekend is to rest from net too...;)

    I have pictures of my setup in "general chat", post "high wife acceptable AV"...

    I had two guys from the TAG forun visiting last week, and both said they never heard better matched subs... Of course the wife new that all the time... :blush:
     
  23. General Skanky

    General Skanky
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    Cheers Lowrider I'll go look................whoosh:)
     

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