24p UHD Motion Issues - Panasonic 2019 OLEDs

HenryHonda

Active Member
I've read quite a few posts, on a number of threads, on this subject already - but thought it might be useful to bring the collective observations/thoughts/recommendations of those far more knowledgeable than me together in one place...

First off, I make no claims at all in having any expertise whatsoever in this potentially confusing field :confused:

Background

I recently took delivery of a Panny TX-55GZ950B to replace my 7-year old GT60B. In short, I am very pleased with my purchase :)

However, having read excellent views of the 4k HDR version of the BBC's 'Planet Earth II' I purchased a copy and played it from my OPPO 203. Yes, very impressive HDR imagery - but I was somewhat disturbed by what I think is significant judder on fast horizontal panning shots...

A good example can be found in the 'Mountains' episode - starting at about 5:20 for a couple of minutes. The camera pans a group of Ibex running away from a fox, across a cliff face. For me, this results in a rather disturbing juddering effect.... This occurs, with IFC off and at IFC min. I have tried IFC Custom, with Film Smooth set to about 5 - and that seems to tame things somewhat.

But, am I going about this the right way..?

- I am aware that some effects of fast horizontal panning can be down to less than ideal camera technique (but the Beeb?).

- I have no idea whether what I am seeing is actually judder. It could be stutter, or other effects?

- I have read some sources that suggest that, because the panel runs natively at 120Hz - and 24Hz is a whole multiple of that, it should be able to reproduce 24p material without any detrimental effects. Is this a reasonable assertion - what about the capabilities of the rest of the video chain?

- in my case, my video chain, and settings are:

Oppo 203

Video Output Setup > HDR Settings > HDR = Auto, Dolby Vision Processing = TV-led

Video Output Setup > Output Resolution = Auto (have also tried Custom - UHD Auto)

Video Output Setup > De-interlacing Mode = Auto (not relevant to 24p)

Denon X3300W AVR

Video > HDMI Setup > HDMI Passthrough = On (not relevant in this case, I think)

Video > Output Settings > Video Mode = Auto, Video Conversion = On (have also tried Off, but I lose the onscreen menu overlay), i/p Scaler = Off

Video > TV Format > Format = NTSC (the TV can take either PAL or NTSC inputs)

Panasonic TX-55GZ950B

Picture > Option Settings > 4k Pure Direct = Off

Picture > Intelligent Frame Creation > I have tried Off, Min, Custom*

* As the disc is 24p, and therefore assumed to be from a film (rather than video) source, I have found that Custom > Film Smooth = 5 or 6 seems to tame things...
I understand that the Blur setting is intended to address video-sourced (50/60Hz material)?


Better to allow my Oppo to do some of the processing - or should I send the TV a pure original signal? (i.e. is the Oppo better at doing some aspects of processing than the TV)

Am I experiencing Judder - or something else?

Please feel free to tear the above to pieces - I am largely ignorant in these matters :confused:

However, if expert members would be kind enough to contribute, I hope that this thread would be very useful to a number of Forum members.

Thanks in advance for your experiences/contributions :)
 

Tegs200

Active Member
It will be your tv as all oleds suffer to some degree and when they say certain makes have better motion handling it means fractionally better but it's just some see it more than others , I actually returned a FZ802 last year for a E8 as I hated the frame skip but that's me.
 

stevew117

Active Member
I've read quite a few posts, on a number of threads, on this subject already - but thought it might be useful to bring the collective observations/thoughts/recommendations of those far more knowledgeable than me together in one place...

First off, I make no claims at all in having any expertise whatsoever in this potentially confusing field :confused:

Background

I recently took delivery of a Panny TX-55GZ950B to replace my 7-year old GT60B. In short, I am very pleased with my purchase :)

However, having read excellent views of the 4k HDR version of the BBC's 'Planet Earth II' I purchased a copy and played it from my OPPO 203. Yes, very impressive HDR imagery - but I was somewhat disturbed by what I think is significant judder on fast horizontal panning shots...

A good example can be found in the 'Mountains' episode - starting at about 5:20 for a couple of minutes. The camera pans a group of Ibex running away from a fox, across a cliff face. For me, this results in a rather disturbing juddering effect.... This occurs, with IFC off and at IFC min. I have tried IFC Custom, with Film Smooth set to about 5 - and that seems to tame things somewhat.

But, am I going about this the right way..?

- I am aware that some effects of fast horizontal panning can be down to less than ideal camera technique (but the Beeb?).

- I have no idea whether what I am seeing is actually judder. It could be stutter, or other effects?

- I have read some sources that suggest that, because the panel runs natively at 120Hz - and 24Hz is a whole multiple of that, it should be able to reproduce 24p material without any detrimental effects. Is this a reasonable assertion - what about the capabilities of the rest of the video chain?

- in my case, my video chain, and settings are:

Oppo 203

Video Output Setup > HDR Settings > HDR = Auto, Dolby Vision Processing = TV-led

Video Output Setup > Output Resolution = Auto (have also tried Custom - UHD Auto)

Video Output Setup > De-interlacing Mode = Auto (not relevant to 24p)

Denon X3300W AVR

Video > HDMI Setup > HDMI Passthrough = On (not relevant in this case, I think)

Video > Output Settings > Video Mode = Auto, Video Conversion = On (have also tried Off, but I lose the onscreen menu overlay), i/p Scaler = Off

Video > TV Format > Format = NTSC (the TV can take either PAL or NTSC inputs)

Panasonic TX-55GZ950B

Picture > Option Settings > 4k Pure Direct = Off

Picture > Intelligent Frame Creation > I have tried Off, Min, Custom*

* As the disc is 24p, and therefore assumed to be from a film (rather than video) source, I have found that Custom > Film Smooth = 5 or 6 seems to tame things...
I understand that the Blur setting is intended to address video-sourced (50/60Hz material)?


Better to allow my Oppo to do some of the processing - or should I send the TV a pure original signal? (i.e. is the Oppo better at doing some aspects of processing than the TV)

Am I experiencing Judder - or something else?

Please feel free to tear the above to pieces - I am largely ignorant in these matters :confused:

However, if expert members would be kind enough to contribute, I hope that this thread would be very useful to a number of Forum members.

Thanks in advance for your experiences/contributions :)

What's it like if you view the same sequence via Netflix? I don't have Planet Earth II on disc but could try that...
 

dms

Active Member
Is this the first time you have noticed judder like this watching material at home?

I appreciate the 24fps discussion is a can of worms but I have noticed, and been irritated, by the judder you describe on every display tech I've ever seen (so cinema, crts, lcds, oleds, home projectors) and so just because you've noticed judder now wouldn't in my mind mean there has to be something wrong with the display.

I find that when people notice judder once it's much more obvious to them. My wife for example never noticed it even when I called it out until she watched Avatar 3d at home and now she's 'converted' to seeing it in 2d material.

Whereas you are right there are practices to avoid the judder being as noticeable it doesn't mean they are used in or even practical for every pan. I don't see why the fact its a BBC production has anything to do with how much judder there would be per se when it's noticable in blockbusters!
 

HenryHonda

Active Member
What's it like if you view the same sequence via Netflix? I don't have Planet Earth II on disc but could try that...

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that :smashin:

I don't subscribe to any video streaming platforms but, if you do, I'd appreciate what you find...:) I know nothing about how Netflix stream video, or how the Panny app processes it - would the stream be identical to that coming from a UHD Blu-ray disc?
 

MultiRoom

Well-known Member
Actually @dms, there is supposed to be a rule of thumb amongst film makers that if the camera pans from left to right, the object that starts at the far right of the shot should take 7 seconds or more to reach the far left of the shot, this minimises the effect of judder, particularly on a larger screen where it becomes more apparent.
 

dms

Active Member
Actually @dms, there is supposed to be a rule of thumb amongst film makers that if the camera pans from left to right, the object that starts at the far right of the shot should take 7 seconds or more to reach the far left of the shot, this minimises the effect of judder, particularly on a larger screen where it becomes more apparent.

Ok, but all I can say is what I see indicates either it's not enough or it's regularly ignored. To be fair it winds me up so much when I notice the judder it's an instant immersion ruining experience for me; I don't complain or think about pans which come across smoothly!
 

MultiRoom

Well-known Member
Ok, but all I can say is what I see indicates either it's not enough or it's regularly ignored. To be fair it winds me up so much when I notice the judder it's an instant immersion ruining experience for me; I don't complain or think about pans which come across smoothly!
Yep, totally agree. When I got my first big TV in 2008 I think it was, a TH42PX80, I immediately noticed the bidder and was bitterly disappointed. There are technologies now that can reduce these effects, some better than others, so that’s big help to me.
 

HenryHonda

Active Member
Is this the first time you have noticed judder like this watching material at home?

In short, this visibly significant, yes... Slight occurrences previously via my GT60B plasma, but nothing so obvious. However, bear in mind that:

- this is my first OLED TV

- this is my first 4k TV

So, I have never, at home, seen any video footage - 4k or otherwise - on an OLED TV.

I don't see why the fact its a BBC production has anything to do with how much judder there would be per se when it's noticable in blockbusters!

I don't think you understood my reference to the Beeb... My comment in brackets was meant to infer that I would be surprised if the BBC were associated with poor camera technique.
 

dms

Active Member
This may be of interest. Scroll down to the 'Picture' section.

You'll notice that if you search any decent review, they all mention the use of 24fps is detrimental to this release, for the reason you're posting about.

Paul

This thread on these forums is very useful now you raise the point.


Their opinion is the source material is 25fps which is usually encoded as 1080i/50hz (so not true 50fps but interlaced to give 25fps because Bluray doesn't support 25hz)
 

dms

Active Member
In short, this visibly significant, yes... Slight occurrences previously via my GT60B plasma, but nothing so obvious. However, bear in mind that:

- this is my first OLED TV

- this is my first 4k TV

So, I have never, at home, seen any video footage - 4k or otherwise - on an OLED TV.

I'll need to dig out and see the sequence you refer to at home to see if it's a particularly bad example of panning. That would make me feel better than what you're seeing is "normal".

I don't think you understood my reference to the Beeb... My comment in brackets was meant to infer that I would be surprised if the BBC were associated with poor camera technique.

I'm sorry I got the Beeb reference, I just don't hold them in such high regard ;-)
 

HenryHonda

Active Member
You'll notice that if you search any decent review, they all mention the use of 24fps is detrimental to this release, for the reason you're posting about.

Thanks Paul,

That certainly puts my mind at much greater ease :smashin:

As I have only just started collecting UHD discs, I'm probably over-reacting to what appears to be a widely-accepted poor example!
 

thx75

Active Member
While watching at 24Hz content be sure you set "Pure Direct" OFF in your Panasonic oled, otherwise 3:2 pull down will be engaged and judder would be far worse.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
While watching at 24Hz content be sure you set "Pure Direct" OFF in your Panasonic oled, otherwise 3:2 pull down will be engaged and judder would be far worse.
That would suggest these displays use 60Hz panels. As I understand it, they use 120Hz panels thus, aren't affected by telecine judder, introduced by 3:2 pulldown.

Paul
 

thx75

Active Member
I don't know if they actually are 60Hz or 120Hz but it is like I'm saying: setting Pure Direct/4K Pure Direct on with 24Hz contents introduces 3:2 pull down, regardless they are SDR or HDR. It was like that on EZ, it is like that on FZ and GZ, everybody know about it in Panasonic oled threads.
 

HenryHonda

Active Member
While watching at 24Hz content be sure you set "Pure Direct" OFF in your Panasonic oled, otherwise 3:2 pull down will be engaged and judder would be far worse.

Yes, I note your advice - but see my original post... I have ensured that Pure direct is off.

I also note Paul's comment re telecine judder - which makes sense in respect of my original post, recognising that these panels are 120Hz native refresh rate.
 

thx75

Active Member
I cannot imagine which is the technical reason behind it but Pure Direct unfortunately introduces pull down.
By the way, if you already have PD off what you are seeing is regular judder from 24fps source, oled panels show it more aggressively in respect to your old plasma, that's a fact. Take it or leave it. :)
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I don't know if they actually are 60Hz or 120Hz but it is like I'm saying: setting Pure Direct/4K Pure Direct on with 24Hz contents introduces 3:2 pull down, regardless they are SDR or HDR. It was like that on EZ, it is like that on FZ and GZ, everybody know about it in Panasonic oled threads.
That's my point, what you're seeing isn't 3:2 pulldown (telecine judder), as the TV a 120Hz native refresh rate. For 24fps content the TV will deploy 5:5 pulldown, so you'll not have telecine judder.

ETA: Of course, it would be nice if Panasonic gave an unambiguous explanation as to what using '4K Pure Direct' actually does.

Paul
 
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thx75

Active Member
With Pure Direct set to ON you do have telecine judder, if you have it set to OFF you don't. I own an FZ, I have owned an EZ and I have checked GZs behave the same, I know what I'm saying. If you don't believe it please get a Panasonic oled (maybe you already own one) and try or at least double check this info inside its specific thread.
 

thedoswells

Well-known Member
Nervously trying to diffuse a potential hotpoint :(, can someone tell me where to look for this option on my GZ950, so I can experiment?
Thanks
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Nervously trying to diffuse a potential hotpoint :(, can someone tell me where to look for this option on my GZ950, so I can experiment?
Thanks
No potential hotpoint here my friend. I've pointed out the facts, no use discussing it further. :smashin:

It's in the 'Options' settings.

Paul
 

HenryHonda

Active Member
I am fully aware that 4k OLED panels will be more revealing of judder (other than telecine).

It appears that, for telecine judder to result from 24fps conversion to 120fps (LG OLED panel native refresh rate), the TV would have to be performing 3:2 pulldown - followed by 2x deinterlacing. Otherwise, as Paul has said, 5:5 pulldown will take place, with no adverse effects. See here.

It just so happens, it appears, that one of my first UHD HDR purchases, is a particularly revealing example of that. However, I have found that a setting of IFC Custom Film Smooth can alleviate it to some degree.

I wanted this thread to be a productive exchange of experiences/expertise, and a learning exercise for those, like me, who would like to understand more of the technical principles underlying these effects. No need for phrases like "Take it or leave it." ;)
 

HenryHonda

Active Member

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