24fps - What Can We Expect?

google

Distinguished Member
I'm in the process of looking to upgrade to a 50" Plasma. I've read loads of threads and keep getting stuck on the 24fps thing. As far as I can make out having a 24fps feed into a Plasma that 'accepts' 24fps 'fully' will help prevent judder.

It seems though that a number of people have been buying the Panasonic PZ70 and are experiencing no judder even though it's not a 24fps Plasma.

I don't understand why 24fps is worth having in a Plasma if judder can be removed without having it?

There must be something else to it that I've not picked up on. Can anyone explain.

Thanks for your time.
 

kingcobbler

Active Member
I agree with the questioner. I am in a similar position but for a 42". All ready top buy th Panny pz750 when it comes out, but I hear rumours it doesn't solve the 24fps issue then I hear there is no issue. All very confusing.
 

yetanotherbob

Active Member
It amazes me that this keeps coming up and people are asking "what should I do"

What you should do is really simple

Demo the screen playing a Blu Ray

If you see judder don't buy it if it bothers you. If you don't see it, or it doesn't bother you (which is highly likely) then I'm your Uncle

Don't choose your panel on spec sheets, magazine reviews or what anyone here (including ******** :D) thinks

Choose your TV using YOUR OWN EYES

Bob
 

AdrianMills

Well-known Member
I agree with the questioner. I am in a similar position but for a 42". All ready top buy th Panny pz750 when it comes out, but I hear rumours it doesn't solve the 24fps issue then I hear there is no issue. All very confusing.

Some people don't notice judder while others do but it doesn't bother them. I was in the latter camp but after seeing what true 1080p/24 movies look like on my Pio 508xd I'll say that it's definitely much better without the judder. And now that I know how good it can be I guess it'll bug me more when I see judder again. :
 

yetanotherbob

Active Member
I'm afraid that as a father of grown up children and the owner for 25 years of a business employing over 30 people I prefer not to join in the stupid whispering PM games that many here (teenagers I would guess) are keen on

I prefer to make my views public and have no need to defend them should anyone disagree :smashin:

I have just had PM from ******** informing me that my post offended him and one of his acolytes I quote:

Please Bob I'm trying hard not to respond publically to "dig" postings, this is about product.

I have had 4 pms after the your last post, 1 calling you a.... and others asking me whats my take on the 24f thing.

Please Bob there is no need for that.


My apologies If I offended anybody by suggesting that they make up their own minds what is important rather than that of Mr ******** who we all know believes that unless it is a PIO 8 series it is simply unfit for purpose :rotfl:

I suggest ******** that the next time someone accuses you of talking nonsense (and they will) then you take it on the chin and accept that just maybe you are not always right and that other views are valid and not a slight on you

It's a TV man, grow up

Bob
 

Bumtious

Banned
Well Bob

Private are supposed to be private

Why not post the rest of it instead of missrepresenting it.

Tell you what I will.

"Thanks

Was about to agree with you cuz thats generally what what I advise you judge, just point out what to look for when asked.

An awefull lot of people value my advice, sorry if it does not fit in with you.


Now for once the PX70 is a far better alround performer than the PZxxx thats what I suggest people look at.

Everyone gone 1080 nuts, why??? you are not gaining anything with those panny's right now Simple.

To take full advantage you DO need 24fps, you DO need HDMI 1.3 otherwise the 1080 spec is incomplete.

People are being conned, plain and simple, I dont want to see people waste their money.

But it is their money, and its their choice, as long as they are happy, thats all that matters.

But when questions are asked I will continue to answer honestly, you have no idea just how many pms I get, or how many phone conversations I have with members.

Please Bob I'm trying hard not to respond publically to "dig" postings, this is about product.

I have had 4 pms after the your last post, 1 calling you a.... and others asking me whats my take on the 24f thing.

Please Bob there is no need for that."


As you can see there is not ONE mention of Pio, and I have taken one line out to not offend someone else.

Sorry for trying to help and give honest advice, but if you are going to attack my integrity, I reserve the right to defend it.
No mention of being offended just asking basically to keep it to product. Clearly YOU cant be trusted with PM's.

Lets get this back on track.

Steve
 

Andy_Jack

Active Member
I'm afraid that as a father of grown up children and the owner for 25 years of a business employing over 30 people I prefer not to join in the stupid whispering PM games that many here (teenagers I would guess) are keen on

I prefer to make my views public and have no need to defend them should anyone disagree :smashin:

I have just had PM from ******** informing me that my post offended him and one of his acolytes I quote:

Please Bob I'm trying hard not to respond publically to "dig" postings, this is about product.

I have had 4 pms after the your last post, 1 calling you a.... and others asking me whats my take on the 24f thing.

Please Bob there is no need for that.


My apologies If I offended anybody by suggesting that they make up their own minds what is important rather than that of Mr ******** who we all know believes that unless it is a PIO 8 series it is simply unfit for purpose :rotfl:

I suggest ******** that the next time someone accuses you of talking nonsense (and they will) then you take it on the chin and accept that just maybe you are not always right and that other views are valid and not a slight on you

It's a TV man, grow up

Bob

I too am a father of two boys, married for 21 years. So no teenager here.;) But, I understand exactly where you are coming from. He likes his pm's doesn't he?:cool: I recently had a pm from him too, telling me how respected he is on here and that has advice is for the best etc etc.

Stay cool and don't let him upset you.
 

Andy_Jack

Active Member
To take full advantage you DO need 24fps, you DO need HDMI 1.3 otherwise the 1080 spec is incomplete.

Says who exactly?

People are being conned, plain and simple, I dont want to see people waste their money.

Your facts? Or your made up facts?


You keep coming out with the same old same old. No doubt you won't answer properly because you are to set on slating the PZ range. Must be sour grapes or something.

On a side note, why do some people love to show on their signatures just how much gear they have? It's like a competition with the neighbours to see who can have the most and the best kit. :)
 

Bumtious

Banned
Same people who respond:boring:

To the OP and everone else.

Go look, as Bob states correctly, judge for yourself it is an issue only if you think it is.

If it does not bother you buy it, and enjoy it.

If there is any doubt in you mind, then dont.


If you want the facts, there are now products that display films in a certain way, if you want a tv that has this facility, look for that feature, if it does not state it has that feature the it will not play it in the way intended.

Simple.
 

warjam1945

Active Member
I am confused so give me some slack. The Pio PDP-508XD has a res of 1365 x 768 which i thought is not FUll high def of 1080p. But in Home cinema choice magazine it says that this Tv has full 1080p support at 24p. But goes onto say that it is not a full hi def Tv.

And ******** you say that you need all this TV features to experinece full high def?

Could you clarify as i wish to purchase a full high def TV with full 1080p 24p support for around £2000

Thanks in advance for reply.
 

Bumtious

Banned
I am confused so give me some slack. The Pio PDP-508XD has a res of 1365 x 768 which i thought is not FUll high def of 1080p. But in Home cinema choice magazine it says that this Tv has full 1080p support at 24p. But goes onto say that it is not a full hi def Tv.

And ******** you say that you need all this TV features to experinece full high def?

Could you clarify as i wish to purchase a full high def TV with full 1080p 24p support for around £2000

Thanks in advance for reply.

At that price right now there isn't one

Again as Bob states correctly you need to go look.

Look at the pio look at the panny and make your choice.

Also look at the Samsung ps-50p96fd.
 

yetanotherbob

Active Member
On a side note, why do some people love to show on their signatures just how much gear they have? It's like a competition with the neighbours to see who can have the most and the best kit. :)


Because we have little willies :( :D

Bob
 

warjam1945

Active Member
The Pio PDP-508XD is £2200 online. Has it them qualities? and what about the Pioneer KURO PDP-508XD 50" Plasma TV is is under £2000?
 

google

Distinguished Member
I can't see from anyone's response that my original post has been understood.

All I wanted to know is what we can expect from 'proper' 24fps as it seems that there may be a Plasma on the market now that is not 24fps but can deal remarkably well in removing judder, from what people have said. Is it possible to have images that appear to run the same whether at 24fps or at another rate?

I will obviously judge for myself the Plasma that I eventually purchase but I just wanted to get peoples opinions on what 24fps will mean seeing as though I'd not actually seen it in action myself yet. I'm not aware of anywhere local that I can actually view a plasma running at 24fps at the moment.

Isn't this forum to help people clarify things AV?
 

Bumtious

Banned
The Pio PDP-508XD is £2200 online. Has it them qualities? and what about the Pioneer KURO PDP-508XD 50" Plasma TV is is under £2000?

Sorry,

Dont understand, do you mean the 5080XD

Neither are a 1920x1080

They are 1365x768

The 508/5080 are HDMI 1.3 and 24f, but NOT a 1080p array.

You need to go and look to see if that is an issue for you.

If it is you need to wait till a set appears on the market that fits your requirements.
 

wombatman

Standard Member
I can't see from anyone's response that my original post has been understood.

All I wanted to know is what we can expect from 'proper' 24fps as it seems that there may be a Plasma on the market now that is not 24fps but can deal remarkably well in removing judder, from what people have said. Is it possible to have images that appear to run the same whether at 24fps or at another rate?

I will obviously judge for myself the Plasma that I eventually purchase but I just wanted to get peoples opinions on what 24fps will mean seeing as though I'd not actually seen it in action myself yet. I'm not aware of anywhere local that I can actually view a plasma running at 24fps at the moment.

Isn't this forum to help people clarify things AV?

No, this forum is for overgrown teenagers (with little willies) who love express their one-sided opinions and are ultra sensitive to any disagreements.
 

Bumtious

Banned
I can't see from anyone's response that my original post has been understood.

All I wanted to know is what we can expect from 'proper' 24fps as it seems that there may be a Plasma on the market now that is not 24fps but can deal remarkably well in removing judder, from what people have said. Is it possible to have images that appear to run the same whether at 24fps or at another rate?

I will obviously judge for myself the Plasma that I eventually purchase but I just wanted to get peoples opinions on what 24fps will mean seeing as though I'd not actually seen it in action myself yet. I'm not aware of anywhere local that I can actually view a plasma running at 24fps at the moment.

Isn't this forum to help people clarify things AV?

Google

Simplest way to explain non 24f support is that the picture is not competely in sync.

Instead of seing things as 123-123-123 you see it as 1223-1233-1223. It makes the film run slightly faster to the point that it shaves off a few minutes of the run time that you would see in the cinema as well as increasing sound pitch slightly.

It happens fast and on its own many people would consider that good enough, upto now we have and got used to it but many people do detect it and see the judder that it causes, and thats why there is this confussion, especially if you have a set that supports 24f next to one that doesn't. Its easier to see the difference.

So the DVD player needs to support 24f as well as the tv to correct this.
 

MonkeySting

Active Member
Instead of seing things as 123-123-123 you see it as 1223-1233-1223. It makes the film run slightly faster to the point that it shaves off a few minutes of the run time that you would see in the cinema as well as increasing sound pitch slightly.

I'm intrigued to hear why you believe 24p support alters the film's speed, run time or sound pitch, ********.
 

Bumtious

Banned
I'm intrigued to hear why you believe 24p support alters the film's speed, run time or sound pitch, ********.

I see how that looks apologies.

The dvd player slows the film down to the correct frame rate, the tv then should sync with that frame rate.
 

google

Distinguished Member
Google

Simplest way to explain non 24f support is that the picture is not competely in sync.

Instead of seing things as 123-123-123 you see it as 1223-1233-1223. It makes the film run slightly faster to the point that it shaves off a few minutes of the run time that you would see in the cinema as well as increasing sound pitch slightly.

It happens fast and on its own many people would consider that good enough, upto now we have and got used to it but many people do detect it and see the judder that it causes, and thats why there is this confussion, especially if you have a set that supports 24f next to one that doesn't. Its easier to see the difference.

So the DVD player needs to support 24f as well as the tv to correct this.

Thanks for that ********. Finally, someone has answered my question.

I now understand how 24fps will make a difference and can see how it is possible to feed 24fps into a non 24fps plasma and not see judder. Seems it's all about speed and complicated things.


All the best.
 

fico99

Active Member
So the DVD player needs to support 24f as well as the tv to correct this.

Which DVD player can play PAL Region 2 DVD's in 24fps :confused:

Or are you talking about HD DVD and Blu-ray here?
 

MonkeySting

Active Member
The dvd player slows the film down to the correct frame rate, the tv then should sync with that frame rate.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I don't know of any DVD player that alters the film's speed.

Are you referring to the telecine process that adds a 4% speed-up to PAL DVDs before they are encoded? (For others: this is performed so that a 24fps source is effectively able to be played back at 25fps, which fits nicely into the 50hz used by our PAL displays.)

This obviously does not apply to HD/BD-DVDs, which are stored at their native 24fps.

Rather than re-type an explanation on the whole 24p/3:2 judder issue, here's a particularly good post on the subject:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5183387&postcount=22
 

albyrne5

Standard Member
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I don't know of any DVD player that alters the film's speed.

Are you referring to the telecine process that adds a 4% speed-up to PAL DVDs before they are encoded? (For others: this is performed so that a 24fps source is effectively able to be played back at 25fps, which fits nicely into the 50hz used by our PAL displays.)

This obviously does not apply to HD/BD-DVDs, which are stored at their native 24fps.

Rather than re-type an explanation on the whole 24p/3:2 judder issue, here's a particularly good post on the subject:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5183387&postcount=22

Thanks for that.

I have an outsdtanding question tho ... does a decent video processor remove any need for the tv to handle 24f? Liek say I got a Panny TH65PF9 and a lumagen radiance or something like that, will that be as good as a tv which did handle 24f?
 

Avalan

Member
Google
Instead of seing things as 123-123-123 you see it as 1223-1233-1223. It makes the film run slightly faster to the point that it shaves off a few minutes of the run time that you would see in the cinema as well as increasing sound pitch slightly.

You're obviously confusing with how DVDs are mastered in region 1. Those are simply sped up to 25fps, resulting in 4% shorter length and 4% higher pitch in sound.
That's not what you get however. Playing 24fps content on a non-24fps TV will result in the realtime conversion to 60fps. This is simply done by 3:2 pulldown. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown#3:2_pulldown . This is the cause of judder. Personally I can definitely see it, but it's not like it bothers me.

However, an interesting question/remark is whether there will be HD-DVD/BluRay players which won't do 3:2 pulldown but which would do realtime speedup to 25fps. The result would be identical to what you have with DVD: no judder, but slight speedup.
I think a PS3 e.g. must be perfectly capable of doing this in realtime since it has ample processing power. And the only processing that is required is to resample the audio such that it plays 4% faster. Sending the frames at 25fps instead of 24fps doesn't need any processing at all.
 

JeffD

Well-known Member
you DO need HDMI 1.3 otherwise the 1080 spec is incomplete
Why on earth do you think HDMI 1.3 is needed :confused: It is of no practically use to most people yet, so I would say for the moment it's mostly a marketing exercise designed to persuade people to upgrade their kit.

The additional features in HDMI 1.3 are:

* Deep colour & xvYCC - only source material is the PS3 and HD camcorders as Blu-Ray & HD-DVD no not support this. Widespread source material will be several years away in whatever super HD format eventually replaces Blu-Ray & HD-DVD.

* Support for the lossless HD audio codecs - Not relevent to a display and not needed for amps that accept LPCM @ 7.1 as decoding can take place in the player.

* Auto lip sync - Nice to have feature whereby all your kit ensures perfect lip sync, but not a must have since most amps have audio delay functions built into them. Besides which I've yet to see any proof this works in the real world, and as far as I know the HDMI 1.3 kit presently available has not yet implemented this feature yet.

If you want to read my source for the above the following article is a interesting read:

Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary?
 

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